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Resolving power cables do they really make a difference

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I found this article to be an interesting read. I must admit I have a few power cables Nordost blue, red and Heimdal so I found the lure irresistible. I thought there was more bass from the power amp but then I was looking for differences. Obviously most of us can't do a sophisticated blind test.

After hearing my new amp (Devialet 200) in the showroom with my ML1 Ref speakers and then hearing it at home I am totally convinced of the benefits of treating a room. Sadly not possible/allowable in my open plan living area.

Dr. AIX's POSTS— 08 November 2016

 

By Mark Waldrep

Most of you know I’m not a believer in the sonic enhancements attributed to fancy, expensive cables. The simple fact remains that audiophiles love to argue and rant about this issue — usually from their own very subjective point of view.

The other day someone posted a question on a FB group asking whether upgrading the power cables on his system was worth it. Of course, there were immediate comments from believers and non-believers. But what surprised me was a response by a staunch supporter of expensive power cords that the reason the most listeners can’t appreciate the “improved low level details and sonic accuracy” delivered by an upgraded power cord (as well as interconnects — analog and digital — and speaker cables) is because their systems are incapable of “resolving” the new level of fidelity. In simple terms, it’s not that the cables aren’t affecting the sound of your system. It’s that your system isn’t good enough to reproduce the improved fidelity. Therefore you don’t hear any difference.

This is a fairly common response. When challenged with facts, measurements, and physics, cable advocates fall back and blame the equipment — or your ears. The marketing people at the cable companies and the reviewers that continue to push their agenda have done an amazing job. They’ve convinced audio enthusiasts that spending $200 to $3000 on a single IEC power cord will “dramatically” enhance the sound of your system. Instead of spending that money on appropriate room tuning solutions, we’re told to buy adhesive dots to place around the room or invest in a power cord with unobtainium plugs.

So I responded to the challenge. I offered up my own studio, as a place I believe should be more than able to “resolve” the slightest changes caused by a deluxe power cord. After all, my mastering studio sits on its own rubber isolated concrete floor ($25,000), was designed by an award-winning studio architect ($20,000), built by a team of highly trained craftsmen who specialize in studio construction ($139,000), equipped with state-of-the-art analog and digital equipment (Euphonix, Benchmark, Meridian, Bryston, B&W, Oppo – $250,000), wired with cables from Audience and Cardas (provided by the companies but valued at many thousands), and tuned by the acoustics guru Bob Hodas ($700). I’ve been mixing and mastering records in my main studio for over 10 years. Many of you have heard the results. Engineers like my friend Jack Vad of the San Francisco Symphony called it, “among the best sounding rooms” he’d ever heard. So I’m very confident my room can resolve music at the highest level.

Some years ago, a small custom cable designer and builder based in Atlanta offered to send me his best power cord for evaluation — a 6-foot, $3000, blond braided IEC cord (it came in a velvet bag and wooden box). He was very confident that I would experience dramatically better “sonic details and instrument discrimination” when using his power cord on my Benchmark DAC 2 HGC. So I borrowed a second Benchmark DAC 2 and setup a parallel signal path from my digital source to my monitor system. A simple push button on my console switched between the output of one DAC (with the expensive power cord) and the other (equipped with the stock IEC cord that shipped with the unit). It was a blind A|B comparison. The question was simple — do the two sources sound the same or different (the levels were carefully aligned and measured)?

I ran the test with a variety of music sources, genres, labels, and formats. A group of professional audio engineers that work in other studios in the building (including a Grammy award winner) couldn’t detect any difference — and neither could I! I simply let them listen and switch between the DACs — and no one reported hearing even the slightest change. If the designer of the cable notices a “dramatic” difference at his place, I don’t know how he does it. In my “high resolving” studio, no one could hear any fidelity change when using a $3000 power cord vs. the $1.50 one that is supplied by Benchmark (and which they recommend!).

Sure, we all want to have the best possible equipment and to maximize our listening experiences. But if I were to create a list of things that will make the most impact on your sound in descending order, power cords would be very near the bottom (followed only by green magic markers). Great recordings would be near the top followed by the acoustic environment in which you listen to your music and then the speakers. These things make a huge difference.

Don’t ever let someone blame your equipment or your ears when making subjective — and usually ridiculous — claims about accessories and tweaks. Use your ears and brains — and remember the famously discredited video about “audio enhancements” provided by ever more expensive AudioQuest HDMI cables from early in the year. If there is an “unbelievable” change, someone is juicing the results.

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Guest Muon

I always giggle reading what Mark Waldrep says, he's entertaining at least :)

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Interesting read.  There is a somewhat similar post regarding speaker cable advice in the forums, where a number of gents recommend $1pm solid core lighting cable from bunnings as very fit for purpose.  I think you overall have to be reasonable in your own expectations, and buy what you comfortably can at the end of the day.  If i was a millionaire would i have ridiculously expensive cables?  most likely, because i could. Unfortunately i'm far from it and never will be, so i might pop down to bunnings later for a hot dog, some weedkiller and lighting cable :) 

Edited by ScottR

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It might be unpopular but my opinion of power cables is as follows. They need to have thick enough conductors to carry transient current spikes, have low resistance connections, good quality terminations on each end, and being shielded is also nice.

 

I have seen what the power cable in the walls of my house back to the switch board and from that to the street looks like. Thousands of dollars worth of cable for the last meter to my equipment isn't going to do anything when from the street to the wall socket is just normal electrical cable.  

 

What can make a difference cable to cable is the quality of the conductor connections at each end, the quality of the power point where it engages the cable, and shielding to keep RF and other noise out.

 

I do have a separate circuit for audio gear so it's not sharing a line with a fridge or microwave, but ultimately it's still sharing a phase so that's of limited value, I did it because I needed a power point on that wall anyway and my amp + gear pulls close to the typical circuit limit and I didn't want it tripping anything when other applicances are being used. 

 

If if I wanted to go all out on power, I'd do a separate circuit on a separate phase, a power conditioner/regenerator to supply a stable 230v, and thick copper shielded cable with good terminations on each end using brass internals heavy duty power points. That's it. And it needent break the bank to do it. 

 

YMMV

Edited by CryptiK

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well my view is that apart from expensive cables looking snazzy  - a wire is a wire is a wire - speaker, power, or whatever as long as it is the right size for the job.  You cant argue with physics. I have never found one iota of difference with several RCA interconnects, I cant hear any difference between using a balanced and RCA connection between oppo and 300 watt power amp going into a pair of ML1's and also a pair of ML3's.  However as part of my recent unencumbered by WAF experimenting I can confirm that incremental movements of the speakers does markedly alter the sound [due to comb filtering i think] and the other thing i have done is to put acoustic absorption panels at the first reflection point [and in a few other places] and that makes a massive difference and is definitely worth trying

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Guest Muon

I disagree with much of what the article states, he advises folk to hold onto their egos by ignoring factors like different systems and different perceptive abilities dictating how much differences are made/heard, those are factual things that he is saying to ignore. It is not dictated by cost either.

 

I can comfortably say that a mate's system (who is not a member here) while I helped him put it together with what should be lesser components kills my own system now, and the difference that put him ahead is a pair of Litz speaker cables, the difference was easily likened to upgrading the budget amp to a TOTL amp, it was that much and that noticeable.

 

For myself and anyone that has heard the difference would have to be off the planet to ignore it, or try and put it down to placebo or any other popular scape goats.

 

 

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Speaker cables couple the amp to the speakers. Their impedance vs frequency response, capacitance and inductance will alter the sound subtly by allowing more or less energy at varying frequencies through to the speaker in the first case and slightly altering the load the speaker presents to the amp. The effects aren't going to be hugely stark, more a very subtle shift here or there, which you may perceive as better or not.

 

Interestingly though, beyond the science of their effect, is the psychology of their effect. A listeners cognitive bias will appear just as real as an actual effect, so when you fork out thousands for a new cable, you researched it, you bought it, you like it, you expect an improvement. If you then hear one, your brain cannot distinguish what is real and what is expectation bias. For those that say no, impossible, my ears don't lie, it's real. Unfortunately no, your senses and brain lie to you all the time. Images on our retinas are upside down and flipped 180* out horizontally. Your brain lies to you and shows it to you the right way up and not mirrored. Can you tell? Of course not. Your brain does a lot of processing of things that you have no control over. 

 

Does that matter if what you're hearing as better is all in your head? Half in your head half real? Only we can answer that for ourselves. 

 

This thread isn't about speaker cables, though. And speaker cables altering the sound slightly doesn't prove that power cables do anything similar. 

Edited by CryptiK

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I am afraid none of them had golden ears.......

A pair of golden ears could have easily differentiate the sound from a $ 150.00 power cable from $156.50 power cable.....

 

Edited by pulinap

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23 hours ago, CryptiK said:

It might be unpopular but my opinion of power cables is as follows. They need to have thick enough conductors to carry transient current spikes, have low resistance connections, good quality terminations on each end, and being shielded is also nice.

 

I have seen what the power cable in the walls of my house back to the switch board and from that to the street looks like. Thousands of dollars worth of cable for the last meter to my equipment isn't going to do anything when from the street to the wall socket is just normal electrical cable.  

 

What can make a difference cable to cable is the quality of the conductor connections at each end, the quality of the power point where it engages the cable, and shielding to keep RF and other noise out.

 

I do have a separate circuit for audio gear so it's not sharing a line with a fridge or microwave, but ultimately it's still sharing a phase so that's of limited value, I did it because I needed a power point on that wall anyway and my amp + gear pulls close to the typical circuit limit and I didn't want it tripping anything when other applicances are being used. 

 

If if I wanted to go all out on power, I'd do a separate circuit on a separate phase, a power conditioner/regenerator to supply a stable 230v, and thick copper shielded cable with good terminations on each end using brass internals heavy duty power points. That's it. And it needent break the bank to do it. 

 

YMMV

That about covers it, in a nutshell, although instead of a regenerator, would suggest one could use the benefits of an Isolation Transformer for filtering harmonics and hash from the mains waveform

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1 minute ago, 125dBmonster said:

That about covers it, in a nutshell, although instead of a regenerator, would suggest one could use the benefits of an Isolation Transformer for filtering harmonics and hash from the mains waveform

 

You know I said that originally then edited it out. Do regenerators have filtration that would filter the noise out as effectively or do they purely produce a 230v stable version of what they get from the mains, noise and all? If they are stepping up and/or down I would imagine they have to use transformers for this, but how they actually work isn't something I've researched. 

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Guest

Re generators can work in a few ways

Non Electronic, full Isolation;

1 Isolation via 2 windings.

2 Isolaiton via 2 winding's with addition of a variac that is governed to follow a specific set point

These types are expensive, and heavy and arguably a by far and a long way the best. 

 

Electronic, non Isolated

1, Switch mode frequency waveform regeneration

2, Passive component (capacitors and Inductors) for phase realignment

3, Surge arresting

These types can be beneficial but true and correct "regeneration" of the mains waveform under full load operation would always to me be somewhat of a mystery. These Electronic re generators do not provide a full isolation and benefits over Brands would differ. So would the thickness of the gold plating vrs cost. 

 

 

Then there are nut jobs like me who "make their own" mains supply from a fully Isolated battery/Inverter arangement

 

EDIT, and spend a lot of effort and money on fully treating the sound lounge :)

 

Edited by Guest

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Guest Muon
1 hour ago, CryptiK said:

Speaker cables couple the amp to the speakers. Their impedance vs frequency response, capacitance and inductance will alter the sound subtly by allowing more or less energy at varying frequencies through to the speaker in the first case and slightly altering the load the speaker presents to the amp. The effects aren't going to be hugely stark, more a very subtle shift here or there, which you may perceive as better or not.

 

Interestingly though, beyond the science of their effect, is the psychology of their effect. A listeners cognitive bias will appear just as real as an actual effect, so when you fork out thousands for a new cable, you researched it, you bought it, you like it, you expect an improvement. If you then hear one, your brain cannot distinguish what is real and what is expectation bias. For those that say no, impossible, my ears don't lie, it's real. Unfortunately no, your senses and brain lie to you all the time. Images on our retinas are upside down and flipped 180* out horizontally. Your brain lies to you and shows it to you the right way up and not mirrored. Can you tell? Of course not. Your brain does a lot of processing of things that you have no control over. 

 

Does that matter if what you're hearing as better is all in your head? Half in your head half real? Only we can answer that for ourselves. 

 

This thread isn't about speaker cables, though. And speaker cables altering the sound slightly doesn't prove that power cables do anything similar. 

Not slightly! in some cases.

 

If you think it is in peoples heads,and a product of psychoacoustics you are very mistaken, but only because you have not experienced it personally.

 

As the person writing the article mentioned being a non-believer in other cable differences, the subject is valid.

 

Again, saying it is all in others heads is not a valid point, It's just a cop-out with no substance.

Edited by Muon

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30 minutes ago, Muon said:

Not slightly! in some cases.

 

If you think it is in peoples heads,and a product of psychoacoustics you are very mistaken, but only because you have not experienced it personally.

 

As the person writing the article mentioned being a non-believer in other cable differences, the subject is valid.

 

Again, saying it is all in others heads is not a valid point, It's just a cop-out with no substance.

 

Please re-read my post. I didn't say "it's all in other people's heads". If you think I did, please quote the line where I said that. You're coming off quite defensive, but you're not under attack. 

 

Unless you are blind tested and reliably picking differences with cable substitution, you cannot prove what you're hearing is real or psychological in origin. There's absolutely no way to tell when you are aware of the situation (new vs stock cable, expensive vs cheap cable etc).

 

The corollary of that is adamantly stating that when performing a sighted comparison the differences you're hearing are real and not 'in your head' as you put it is quite simply impossible. Now I didn't just make that up, and if you have an issue with it you have an issue with the reality of brain function, not with me.

 

Also me having experienced the same phschological bias is irrelevant, and doesn't suddenly transform a perception into a reality, it just means we have experieneced the same psychological phenomenon. There's an important difference. 

 

Please also note I said even if it's partly psychological in origin there may still be value in pursuing it depending on the individual. Our brains create a virtual soundstage among other things, perception is everything and if ones perception of their own system is enhanced with new cables then who am I to argue with that?

 

But again, this thread is about power cables - that's what the OP wants to discuss. Because he links an article where the author despite primarily discussing power cables also mentions speaker cables doesn't mean that he invites this thread to begin wholesale discussion of speaker cables instead. 

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Guest Muon

You don't need stupid questionable blind tests when something is bloody obvious.

 

If you want a closed tightly controlled discussion that only discusses what you want discussed, create a private forum and invite those that you can control.

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Just now, Muon said:

You don't need stupid questionable blind tests when something is bloody obvious.

 

If you want a closed tightly controlled discussion that only discusses what you want discussed, create a private forum and invite those that you can control.

 

To separate actual aurally perceiving differences from cognitive bias, yes you absolutely do need blind testing. That's a known fact the entire scientific community agrees with. It doesn't matter whether you agree with that or not. 

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Guest Muon

cognitive bias is not fixed, it is variable from one person to the next, some folk are not fooled/influenced by it to much degree at all and then some folk are slaves to there own mind.

 

If you prefer to swallow any old titbit from testing that is questionable in the first place, that is up to you.

Edited by Muon
Clarity

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1 hour ago, Muon said:

As the person writing the article mentioned being a non-believer in other cable differences, the subject is valid.

 

 

You're very close to misrepresenting Mark.

 

He does not believe every cable is the same, or that differences are 'impossible'.  For instance he would necessarily tell your mate that his new speaker cable didn't sound different.

 

He just doesn't believe in the fancy expensive cables, making any significant difference above a well designed and made cord, which might cost < 10% of the price.   (eg.   a $100, vs $3000).

 

 

Most people do not compare cables using a very robust method.    Many times I have found that perceived differences go away, or change, when things like 'audio memory' (duration), and knowing about the device under test, are controlled for.

 

Similarly I have also been 'fooled' a number of times, where I was able to hear amazing differences between A and B .... when A and B were actually the same thing.

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Guest Muon

Good for you, and do not say I'm misrepresenting anyone, I do not fully agree with Mark and I stated so.

 

I also do not fully  agree with you, Dave.

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Are cable discussions always this aggressive ? 

 

Personally I don't get emotional about these kind of things. I'm a scientist (organic chemist) by trade, my wife has a PhD in nutritional biochemistry. You could say I've read a lot of papers and understand what it takes to critically analyse experimental findings and well as what it takes to correctly design an experiment where as many variables as possible are controlled for.  

 

I find the melding of reality and perception interesting. I you perceive something to be so, does it matter if it really is or if it's just psychological? Personally no, I don't think it matters. Our brains are where the buck stops, so if your brain enjoys your system more with expensive cables and you can afford it great. 

 

Some need it to be real so badly that they'll publicly argue the case for the affirmative so aggressively that the 'opponents' just walk away. Being the last man standing in such an argument doesn't confirm anything, however. 

Edited by CryptiK

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1 hour ago, CryptiK said:

Are cable discussions always this aggressive ? 

 

Personally I don't get emotional about these kind of things. I'm a scientist (organic chemist) by trade, my wife has a PhD in nutritional biochemistry. You could say I've read a lot of papers and understand what it takes to critically analyse experimental findings and well as what it takes to correctly design an experiment. 

 

I find the melding of reality and perception interesting. I you perceive something to be so, does it matter if it really is or if it's just psychological? Personally no, I don't think it matters. Our brains are where the buck stops, so if your brain enjoys your system more with expensive cables and you can afford it great. 

 

Some however need it to be real so badly that they'll publicly argue the case for the affirmative so aggressively that the 'opponents' just walk away. Being the last man standing in such an argument doesn't confirm anything, however. 

 

With your background, maybe you can help shed some light on this for me.

I find DBT's are ineffective for me. When ever I do them I find it hard to relax. Its as if my brain is in a different mode than when I normally just listen to music.

I then find it hard to discern any differences.

I thought I also read that the brain has a great way of filling in gaps for the differences when switching.

The only way I can really get a feel for a component or cable is over days or even a week with each.

DBT's even drive me crazy between 2 speakers. :)

Edited by rocky500

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Guest Hensa

While living in Hong Kong a few years ago, I, along with a few other hi-fi enthusiasts participated in a series of blind tests covering power cables and power filters. The power cables ranged from $10 stock cables up to $1500 and the power filter was $2k or thereabouts.

Before the test, I had invested in several hundred dollar cables and was fairly confident I could pick the differences.

Long story short, neither I nor my colleagues could reliably pick the differences in the cables. It was a somewhat humbling experience to be honest. On the other hand, all of us consistently identified when the power filter was in the system - the differences with the filter were not subtle.

So, for me at least, I have no interest in getting expensive power cables. I bought the filter and happily use stock cables with it.

While I'm happy to share my own experiences, I'll never make derogatory comment about anybody else that states they can hear the difference between power cables. I don't own their ears or their system so it's simply not my place to offer judgement. Likewise, it wouldn't be appropriate for anybody else to suggest my hearing acuity is somehow deficient or my system somehow not transparent enough because I can't discern power cable differences.


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It has been my own experience, that when the comparing becomes blind, those massive differences pale into insignificance.

 

Expectation bias and the power of suggestion make a far greater difference to sound than any cable I have ever used,

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11 minutes ago, Hensa said:


So, for me at least, I have no interest in getting expensive power cables. I bought the filter and happily use stock cables with it.
 

 

The main reason I buy more pricey power cables are that they are shielded.

My thinking (could be wrong) is that there is a possibility that the shielding may help with interference to my interconnects or components are it passes them.

I just don't see this mentioned much. I have one of those pens that make a noise and flash red. It might be making me prone to buying the shielded power cables. 

Most of my power cables are around $100 or a little more.

Edited by rocky500

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41 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

 

With your background, maybe you can help shed some light on this for me.

I find DBT's are ineffective for me. When ever I do them I find it hard to relax. Its as if my brain is in a different mode than when I normally just listen to music.

I then find it hard to discern any differences.

I thought I also read that the brain has a great way of filling in gaps for the differences when switching.

The only way I can really get a feel for a component or cable is over days or even a week with each.

DBT's even drive me crazing between 2 speakers. :)

 

A double blind test is where both the person being tested and the tester are unaware of the factors at play. In hifi testing (usually) the tester is aware of what cables are used (they're the one swapping them over) and only those being tested are unaware - this is called a blind test. 

 

Its not surprising you feel a bit odd in those circumstances. Most do. There's a few factors at play - mostly it's just not the situation you are used to enjoying music in. I like doing things like that at home and get a mate or my wife to swap something for me and cover it up so I can't see it. I'll listen for awhile and then have them swap it back. But mostly I just buy stuff based on professional and user reviews and see if I like it, knowing full well what it is. 

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The main reason I buy more pricey power cables are that they are shielded.

My thinking (could be wrong) is that there is a possibility that the shielding may help with interference to my interconnects or components are it passes them.

I just don't see this mentioned much. I have one of those pens that make a noise and flash red. It might be making me prone to buying the shielded power cables. 

I agree.

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