Jump to content

ML5


bhobba

Recommended Posts

On 27/05/2018 at 7:25 PM, Lenehan Audio said:

Hi Bill

.                Actually this new 7.5 Satori should produce exceptional bass ! Bass should hopefully in the ML5 class in respect of bass weight.    Cheers Mike 

@Lenehan Audio This had me intrigued when you first wrote it. How did the bass weight stack up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites



7 hours ago, Lenehan Audio said:

The cone breakup mode on both drivers is good and easy to control

Like @Joe Rasmussen I don't think what we see in the HDS driver is actually "breakup".

Quote

 http://customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_7.htm    I see this, not as a cone resonance, but as a pressure point caused in a similar way to diffraction effects that you get when mounting a driver on a Front Panel, where the flushness and the shape of the baffle increases pressure at certain frequencies and not others.

I was preconditioned (like many people I suspect) to assume the peak in the response was "cone breakup" ...... and so this was a bit of an eye opener when I first saw Joe write it.

 

.... so I went and did some approximate simulations of the "horn effect" of the cone profile of the HDS woofer .... and the sorts of graphs I got, were ones which looked just like the HDS driver measurement, ie. a peak at ~4khz of about 3 to 6dB (this is for the 6.5" version).....  Hah.

 

I'd always thought "oh, the breakup in this driver is very benign" ..... but it seems it is not breakup at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even Esa Merilainen in his "Current Driving Loudspeakers" book, which I believe came out after I wrote it on my website article, called this a 'horn' effect, which is to say that it is a matter of shape of the cone.

 

Lynn Olson also made a comment of what I said and made an interesting point, that bad speakers with bad high inductance can make the driver look good as the inductance will make them measure better, going some way to suppress this peak. So the better driver may well have a more pronounced peak and look bad. But in a good driver, look at the CSD 'waterfall' plot and often you can detect ridges where you may have minor resonances in the 3-10KHz range, but these do not coincide with the 4KHz peak. This is clear evidence that the 4KHz peak is not a resonance, not a cone breakup.

 

Below is a quick but revealing comparison between the 6.5" HDS drivers using 1/6th Octave pink noise. Red is the multi-layer PP cone and the other is Black the Nomex cone as used by both Mike and myself (was used in the DIY Elsinore Mk5 speakers).

 

PP on the right and Nomex on the left, other than cone they are identical.

 

PPB_Nomex_787W.jpg

 

The two drivers are identical except for the cone material and the fact that the Nomex dustcap is a bit smaller. So the cone profile is very very close. So this is what it looks like:

 

Both_800W.gif

 

The similarity is not a coincidence, in fact if the Nomex dustcap had been exactly the same diameter, it would have been in more close. The slight difference in level, Black is the Nomex has a slightly lighter cone and hence about 1dB advantage.

 

Note the slightly smaller dustcap of the Nomex, this means the 4KHz peak is broader, this I believe is logical to expect.

 

Lynn Olson's comments below, I think lovers of speaker design might like to read it:

 

Joe Rasmussen has a crossover design philosophy that overlaps with mine to a large degree. Not identical, mind you, but a lot of areas of agreement. I mainly use low-Q 2nd-order networks, but am quite partial to 1st-order combined with a notch filter as well, depending on what the driver wants to do.

 

Linear phase I can take or leave, but the phase angles between the drivers are very very important and are quite audible as "phasiness" with pink-noise stimulus. A correctly designed crossover does not sound "phasey" and more importantly, sounds like a single driver, even when quite close-up to the loudspeaker.

 

It is certainly true that high-quality cone drivers typically have a single well-defined peak at the top of the range, and this single peak is amenable to notch-filter equalization. I agree with Joe's comment these clean, well-defined peaks are not breakup, but are artefacts of the cone shape itself. They are especially evident in top-of-the-line cones with low inductance figures - in a more typical high-inductance driver, the peak is intentionally masked by voice-coil inductance. Since VC inductance is quite nonlinear, low inductance is a good thing - but it does make the FR look different than you might expect.

 

It's the drivers with ragged responses above the top of the range that are more problematic to cross over and equalize - any driver with a whizzer or poorly designed dustcap or phase plug qualifies here. These are the notorious directional peaks you've seen me complaining about - the famous KEF B110, as used in the BBC LS3/5a, had three directional peaks 100 Hz apart in the 3.5 kHz region, as well as a single broad peak at 1.5 kHz (which was equalized in the LS 3/5a crossover).

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said:

Even Esa Merilainen in his "Current Driving Loudspeakers" book, which I believe came out after I wrote it on my website article, called this a 'horn' effect, which is to say that it is a matter of shape of the cone.

 

Hmm... I don't ever recall reading this part in Esa' book .... I must have skimmed over that part, I'll have to dig it out.

 

As for LO's comment.... buried in the 'Beyond the Ariel' saga, I suspect.  :D 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it does go back further than Esa's book as my comment is 2007. The horn comment is on page 49 and context is the mid-bass or just midrange driver:

 

"At high frequencies, the horn action of the cone causes easily an extensive accentuation in the frequency response..."

 

It is also mentioned on page 48 as comment to  Fig. 3.12a.

 

It is easy to miss, so not surprised that you did. I have not heard anybody else describe it as a horn effect, but it does kind of make sense. But the important thing here is that a) it is caused by the cone profile, which does sort of look like a horn and b) a horn is an acoustic device, it is not about any physical breakup which is a mechanical issue. 

 

Do a CSD 'waterfall' plot and you will see exactly what you have, as cone resonances that don't even show up in the frequency response in any obvious way can be revealed. But some peaks in the FR can definitely be resonances. I have the facility here to do such measurements on any driver that can be brought here. 

Edited by Joe Rasmussen
typo: accentuation, not attenuation
Link to comment
Share on other sites



:thumb:

10 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said:

"At high frequencies, the horn action of the cone causes easily an extensive attenuation in the frequency response..."

Also interesting.

 

The simulations I made of the cone effect, showed the peak at 4khz (for the 6.5 HDS) .... but also a low pass action above there.

 

This would explain why the low pass rolloff of such a driver is stronger than the simple mass roll-off effect would predict.

 

As I mentioned before... It's interesting how much "preconditioning" causes us (well, me) to not think about these types of things too deeply - when we're convinced we "already know what they are".

 

12 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said:

It is easy to miss, so not surprised that you did.

Well, my mind would have been in "current drive thinking mode" while reading it, I imagine.

 

12 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said:

I have not heard anybody else describe it as a horn effect, but it does kind of make sense.

Indeed.   The effect must be there, if we think about it.   If sound is radiating from a point on the cone (say near the dustcap).... there is a "thing" (the rest of the cone) in it's way.    You can't put a think in the path of sound, without doing something to it.   ?

12 minutes ago, Joe Rasmussen said:

Do a CSD 'waterfall' plot and you will see exactly what you have, as cone resonances that don't even show up in the frequency response in any obvious way can be revealed. But some peaks in the FR can definitely be resonances. I have the facility here to do such measurements on any driver that can be brought here. 

Same.... Although I don't put much sway in CSD plots derived from a sweep.   Specific tone burst energy storage (eg. like what SL did in his driver investigations) are much much more insightful.... although they're more complex measurements, and difficult to do wrong, or interpret wrong   (a CSD derived from a frequency sweep is certainly a lot easier.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

"At high frequencies, the horn action of the cone causes easily an extensive attenuation in the frequency response..."

CORRECTION:

The stupid spellchecker... "accentuation in the frequency response..."

 

Exactly the opposite. the response it says is accentuated, not attenuated - I have also corrected/edited the original post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18 December 2018 at 6:49 PM, Somethingclever said:

@Lenehan Audio This had me intrigued when you first wrote it. How did the bass weight stack up?

 Certainly more bass energy and weight than the 6.5  Peerless exclusive but in some ways also not quite as good . It's very close overall but more work needs to be done .      Cheers Mike Lenehan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I certainly agree with Joe re the Peerless Nomex Drivers . Their low VC inductance is in many cases half that of much more expensive supposed high end drivers.

 

Nomex has so far been the diaphragm material of choice because it sounds like paper in the mids (aka the best ) and like poly in the bass , so far in my view an unassailable cone material . 

 

This new Satori 7.5 has some promise  ! It has a superb non restrictive cast basket thanks to the Neo magnet assembly and significantly more linear excursion and cone area than the current ML2 Peerless Nomex . 

 

I know now that this new driver will do it in the mids ! BUT can it produce the stunningly high resolution bass of the Peerless Exclusive ? I believe it will be able to do this but of course I need to prove it . 

 

In in the end run though producing absolute SOTA loudspeakers requires in my view the following 

1. An enclosure with vanishingly low energy storage

 

2. A Crossover that has a minimum 20/30 db deep linear anti phase notch at the Crossover point. 

 

3. A Crossover/speaker combination that has been burned in for a couple of hundred hours then hand tuned individually to reference measurements.

 

4. A very flat frequency response ! Not just on axis but critically within + or - 1.5 db at 45 degrees off axis upto at least 12khz.  No suckout in the mids from a beaming mid bass driver and no edgy Flare from the tweeters lower band pass. 

The ability to pump a smooth accurate response into the entire room , not just directly at your ears. In other words a state of the art power response.

 

5. A baffle design that does not reflect distortive energy forward to the listener within the frequency wavelength of the baffle dimensions. ( I'm not talking about response step tuning here)

Ahhhhh that's it lads I'm fallin asleep ! Keep lisnin.        Cheers Mike Lenehan

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Lenehan Audio said:

I know now that this new driver will do it in the mids ! BUT can it produce the stunningly high resolution bass of the Peerless Exclusive ? I believe it will be able to do this but of course I need to prove it . 

Of all the ML2 Limiteds' remarkable qualities, it's this which surprises and impresses me the most. The bass seems to have the same openness and transparency as the mids, something which is not only unprecedented in my experience, but something which I never imagined would be possible. Combine that with it's incredible speed, extension and punchiness, and you have a bass like I've never heard before. Indeed, when I listen to it, I no longer think "that's great bass" - I think "that's a great sounding bass guitar" (or kick drum or synth bas or whatever).

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



8 hours ago, ljmac said:

Of all the ML2 Limiteds' remarkable qualities, it's this which surprises and impresses me the most. The bass seems to have the same openness and transparency as the mids, something which is not only unprecedented in my experience, but something which I never imagined would be possible. Combine that with it's incredible speed, extension and punchiness, and you have a bass like I've never heard before. Indeed, when I listen to it, I no longer think "that's great bass" - I think "that's a great sounding bass guitar" (or kick drum or synth bas or whatever).

I agree with you heartily. Unfortunately for me, I always wanted more bottom end extension. I have music which goes below what my ML2s could reproduce. Combine that desire with the effect of the isolation platform... and boom, I'm in ML5 territory.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, kdoot said:

I agree with you heartily. Unfortunately for me, I always wanted more bottom end extension. I have music which goes below what my ML2s could reproduce. Combine that desire with the effect of the isolation platform... and boom, I'm in ML5 territory.

Me too ;) 

 

I have a sneaking suspicion I trade off a bit of soundstage the the ML2's would have over the ML5 for the bigger bass and SPL capabilities. Have always found standmounts to have much better sound staging.

Edited by Darren69
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, kdoot said:

I agree with you heartily. Unfortunately for me, I always wanted more bottom end extension. I have music which goes below what my ML2s could reproduce. Combine that desire with the effect of the isolation platform... and boom, I'm in ML5 territory.

I think you will have music which goes below what the ML5s can reproduce, better get Mike to build you some ML6s ?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, awayward said:

I think you will have music which goes below what the ML5s can reproduce, better get Mike to build you some ML6s ?

Mike was mucking around with some hyperbaric stuff once, I think. (?)

 

I have two REL's to love me. :) 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



18 hours ago, Joe Rasmussen said:

CORRECTION:

The stupid spellchecker... "accentuation in the frequency response..."

Exactly the opposite. the response it says is accentuated, not attenuated - I have also corrected/edited the original post.

 

At this risk of complicating the discussion ..... Is it possible you are actually on to something with your "misprint"?!    When I simulated the "horn action".... I see the peak at 4khz .... and then above the peak, I see a ~12dB octave low pass effect.

 

... but the rolloff of the woofer at high frequencies is more like 24db/octave.

  • We should expect 6dB/octave low pass from the mass breaking
  • We should expect ~6dB octave low pass from the VC inductance breaking
  • Does the other 12dB/octave roll off in the SPL come from the shape of the cone itself?!.     Perhaps not, it's just a thought bubble.

 

Anyways.... this is getting almost off topic.

 

 

I vote the Peerless HDS nomex cone woofers as the "driver of the decade" .... and last decade too.   :D 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep. They are everything I hoped for, a massive step up from the ML2. 

 

My wife arrived home and within seconds of hearing some music at a very low level she commented, "Oh, they really do sound different." Then she proceeded to describe improvements in imaging and resolution in a couple of sentences that would be totally at home in professional reviews.

 

They look beautiful, sound incredible and will be keeping me in music for *many* years to come. Thanks Mike!!

  • Like 4
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



Awesome Kdoot - I have to say that the GTG earlier this year at Mikes provided me with possibly the best sound I have ever heard - the thing was it was the combo of The Grandinote Amps and DAC and the ML5’s - felt like sawing my right arm off and trading it for the complete setup. I’m sold on the speaker cables and isolating platforms as well. Mike is a guru

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, A J said:

Awesome Kdoot - I have to say that the GTG earlier this year at Mikes provided me with possibly the best sound I have ever heard - the thing was it was the combo of The Grandinote Amps and DAC and the ML5’s - felt like sawing my right arm off and trading it for the complete setup. I’m sold on the speaker cables and isolating platforms as well. Mike is a guru

Thanks AJ.      

I think because you got to kick back by yourself and relax while you listened a lot more of the systems virtues could quickly reveal themselves.

 

short term GTG's with lots of people in attendance can only reveal so much ! 

Cheers Mike Lenehan

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kdoot said:

Yep. They are everything I hoped for, a massive step up from the ML2. 

 

My wife arrived home and within seconds of hearing some music at a very low level she commented, "Oh, they really do sound different." Then she proceeded to describe improvements in imaging and resolution in a couple of sentences that would be totally at home in professional reviews.

 

They look beautiful, sound incredible and will be keeping me in music for *many* years to come. Thanks Mike!!

Many Thanks Terry !  It was an experience indeed particularly after the room tune .

 

When I arrived at Terry's place at 10am we did an initial setup with the factory tuning . We were both very happy with the initial result , however one or two tracks were slightly forward in the upper mid lower treble . 

Although quite acceptable both Terry and I could hear this !  The fact that we were sitting only 2m from the speakers meant that the tonal balance was slightly tipped up .

The ML5 is normally set up for a more usual 3m listening distance . The ear hears tonal balance differently when it gets closer to a source, the further you get away from a loudspeaker the less top end you hear .  Because we were sitting close the tonal balance was very slightly tipped up ( but I do mean very slightly) 

 

Because I hadn't finalised the tuning I was able to slightly alter the response to produce a neutral balance through the higher octaves.  WHOOO !! the system spoke to us and produced superb 3D Rez and detail . There's no doubt that custom install can produce results ( I was only 1.5 hours from Terry's ) 

 

  I must admit I get a huge buzz from making my gear work this way . 

Cheers Mike Lenehan

 

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 21/12/2018 at 3:54 AM, Cardiiiii said:

Pictures please!

Ok Lads.    Some pics ! Terry is using a PS Direct Stream DAC with FoilFlex cables and 250w MudicalFidelity PowerAmp. 3hz Isolation under the amp .  I’m currently building. 3hz platform for the Direct Stream , this will provide a very noticeable improvement again . 

Cheers. Mike Lenehan 

720EC966-37EE-4BD2-9A1F-9B940D076F53.jpeg

9B4A922E-89FA-45ED-98B6-9ACE3158789C.jpeg

06E7322F-3CA9-4D93-A46B-A4451461885C.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...
To Top