Capacator Comparison

[bhobba]

Hi All

 

In order to determine the best capacitors to use in my magnesium Limited and a new speaker using the Seas Exotic tweeter Rawl is working on with Mike a capacitor comparison will be held  It will use my completed ML2 Limited with a specially made crossover that allows changing of capacitors easily.  It will be done both blind and sighted.

 

The capacitors will be:

Duelund VSF Copper

Duleund Cast

Duelund .001uf Silver bypass

Jupiter Copper (my personal favorite)

Jupiter VT Aluminium (my favorite value capacitor)

Jupiter 1uf copper used as bypass.

 

All capacitors will be tried with and without the bypass, it may even be possible to see what both bypass do together.  

 

If you want to get a feel for these capacitors see Humble Homemade Hi Fi:

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

 

Date not set yet - but hopefully soon.

 

Thanks

Bill 

[ljmac]

Definitely interested in this one!

[Ian McP]

One of the definitive articles on capacitors

Picking Capacitors by Walt Jung

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf
 

[bhobba]

Did a bit of mucking about with bypasses over Erse capacitors yesterday with a new speaker Mike and Rawl are working on, that Mike will do a new post about shortly.

 

As you would expect the more Duelund used in the bypass, the better - funny about that.  But even a small amount of Duelund made an appreciable difference.

 

Thanks

Bill 

Edited September 22, 2016 by bhobba

[Sierra]

Will be interested to see the results of this test.

[bhobba]

Did some initial testing with the test crossover.

 

The Dueland bypass are the real deal.  Humble Hi Fi says they add about 2 to capacator level.  I think depending on the capacitor maybe more - they are that good.  Much more nuance, richer and detail.  Not cold and treblely in bad way - simply richer and more real.

 

We tried:

1.  Obbligato - worst of the lot - forget them.  My comment was blancmange like - everything sounded slow, lacking in detail simply uninteresting.  Mike used a word starting with s and ending in it - you can fill in the blank.  Humble Hi Fi gives them a 10 - I give them about a 6 - 7 at the most - I don't think they are better than Erse yet slightly more expensive.  Exactly how they compare will need to wait for the comparison.  They are cheap however but had the reputation for giant killers - for me they performed like they cost - very average even to the point of ho hum.  

 

2.  Obbligato by-passed with Duelund.  Acceptable - now about a 10 - but since the bypass capacitor cost $100 better buying a better capacitor like a Jupiter Aluminium (my favorite value capacitor) and not bypassing.

 

3.  Jupiter Copper.  Very real and natural, clarity for me above VSF copper and I prefer it.  Nearly up to Cast standard IMHO but some ears I respect think they can hear a slight edge - I cant hear it.  Simply real clear and natural.

 

4.  Jupiter Copper bypassed by Duelund.  Amazing - Real, nuanced, rich, clarity even better, best capacitor I have yet heard - yes IMHO above Cast from memory but only a direct comparison will verify that strong statement.  And much much better value

 

5.  We didn't try Jupiter Aluminium but I have heard them before.  Not quite at copper standards - fleshy rich harmonic texture type sound.  Not quite as real sounding or as clear as copper - but still good.  But they are 1/3 the price of the copper - very good value.  But what when bypassed - I got the feeling they will be up to copper standards at a much cheaper price.  When Mike gets back from Port Macquarie we will see.

 

My initial reaction is lets divide capacitors into average, (Erse, Obblicato), good(Jayzen Superior - about 10 in Humbles rating), very good (Jupiter Aluminium - about 12 in Humbles rating), Exceptional (Duelund VSF, Jupiter Copper - about 13 in Humbles rating), Sublime - just the Cast here at 14.  I think the bypass raises it at least one level ie good to very good, exceptional to sublime.  Everyone needs to do their math as the what is the best value.  

 

Also carefully note not everyone agrees with these ratings - some rate Cast lower and VSF higher for example.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited November 11, 2016 by bhobba

[ljmac]

Mike: I guess you'd have to re-measure my speakers to add silver bypass to my ML2 Ltds?

[bhobba]

28 minutes ago, ljmac said:

Mike: I guess you'd have to re-measure my speakers to add silver bypass to my ML2 Ltds?

 

Not sure re-measurement is necessary but bypassed Cast gets - gulp - 15 from Humble

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by bhobba

[bhobba]

Mike is going to change the crossover on my Limited to the new one before I sell it and I will change it to bypassed Jupiter Copper and sell the Cast.  Will it be better than yours? - maybe we can find out.

 

Thanks

Yours

[Guest Muon]

Were the Obbligato caps the Premium Golds?

 

I guess I'm more in line with HH's evaluation on these ;)

 

 

[Guest Muon]

Actually, if I recall correct Humble Hifi's original test of Obbligato caps were the MPK or MKP type in the black casing.....and not the Premium Golds, unless they added the Golds since i last looked.

[bhobba]

1 minute ago, Muon said:

Were the Obbligato caps the Premium Golds? I guess I'm more in line with HH's evaluation on these

 

Yes - and extensively run in.

 

Disappointing to me as well.   I was expecting much better.

 

See if you can come to the official comparison - it will be done sighted an blind and compared to the Magnesium Limited and ML2 Limited (unless I have sold them since then).

 

Thanks

Bill

[Guest Muon]

Doesn't matter, I have used a few of the Obbligato caps available and know them well.

 

Also those tested on Humble homemade hifi's site are not the Premium Golds. They were the MKP's and those while OK are somewhat gritty sounding compared to the Premium Golds, the PG are a lot smoother, and I would add richly detailed and natural sounding, of course they won't be as good as Duelunds or Jupiter Coppers, it would be unrealistic to expect otherwise.

[bhobba]

3 minutes ago, Muon said:

the PG are a lot smoother,

 

For me too smooth to the point of being uninteresting lacking in detail and not 'quite right'.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Guest Muon]

Different opinions, different hearing, different systems.

 

Have to just leave it as agree to disagree on this one,

 

Edit: Oh, and don't mind me too much, I think I'm nearing my end to this hobby, interest has dropped so I might be out of it soon.

People like myself and others like SV have recommended the Obbligato Gold caps as a budget option at times, I think what is evident here is that the thing that was a factor was expectations being higher than practical. BTW, I hate Earse caps.

Maybe you guys would like the MPK version better, it scored that 10- not the Premium Golds. Actually the MPK with the right by-pass isn't too bad at all, had them in a Marantz player by-passed with Mundorf Silver and Oils..

Edited November 13, 2016 by Muon

[ljmac]

14 hours ago, bhobba said:

Mike is going to change the crossover on my Limited to the new one before I sell it and I will change it to bypassed Jupiter Copper and sell the Cast.  Will it be better than yours? - maybe we can find out.

 

Thanks

Yours

So Mike is intending to update the ML2 crossover to the ML5 topology? Will this require different values for the components? If it doesn't I might as well just keep my CAST - insanely expensive, yes, but still the best. Also, no matter how good the ML5 is it will simply be too heavy for me - I'm a solo audiophile, so I need my equipment to be light enough to set up by myself. At 32.5kg each for the cabinets, my Ml2 Ltds (with external crossovers) only just barely meet that requirement.

[bhobba]

On 12/11/2016 at 0:52 PM, ljmac said:

So Mike is intending to update the ML2 crossover to the ML5 topology? Will this require different values for the components? If it doesn't I might as well just keep my CAST - insanely expensive, yes, but still the best. Also, no matter how good the ML5 is it will simply be too heavy for me - I'm a solo audiophile, so I need my equipment to be light enough to set up by myself. At 32.5kg each for the cabinets, my Ml2 Ltds (with external crossovers) only just barely meet that requirement.

 

I have commissioned Mike to build an ML2 version of the ML5.  That will use the new tweeter and his new found anti resonance that has even lower than the ML2's'.  The ML5's IMHO already without the super expensive capacitors sound better than the ML2.

 

This is not from a direct comparison mind you but for me the duelund bypassed Jupoiter coppper sounds better than the Cast.  But the insane cost of cast makes direct comparaison difficult - unless someone has four 10 uf cast to bring along to the comparison.

 

We haven't tested the duelund bypassed VSF yet - that may be better than the cast as well - we will see.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

All the capacitors for the comparison are either now on their way or have arrived.

 

Those that have arrived are being burned in.  When those on their way arrive they will immediately start burning in.

 

The capacitors will be:

Duelund VSF Copper

Jupiter Copper

Jupiter Aluminium

Obbligato Gold

Jantzen Superior

Erse Pulse X.

 

Maybe some ring-in's as well.

 

All will be checked bypassed and un-bypassed by Duelund Silver bypass capacitors.

 

Mike was worried not enough will turn up.

 

I am sure this will be so interesting a number of SNA's will turn up once the day is set which will likely be somewhere between mid and end January.

 

Thanks

Bill

[ljmac]

Hmmm, very curious about this new resonance control trick. What is it exactly?

 

So I guess you mean you've commissioned Mike to build a 6.5" floorstander, correct?

[bhobba]

On 17/12/2016 at 7:57 PM, ljmac said:

Hmmm, very curious about this new resonance control trick. What is it exactly? So I guess you mean you've commissioned Mike to build a 6.5" floorstander, correct?

 

It's up to Mike to reveal the details but what he told me was it was an extension of the cross bracing at node points using different thickness steel.

 

Yes I have commissioned Mike to build the 6.5 inch version.  This means I pay for parts and labour as needed during development like the Magnesium's which are also nearing completion.  But Mike said their has been a lot of interest in the ML5's so its likely his time in the near future will be building and tuning them further eg incorporating the results of the capacitor comparison.

 

Thanks

Bill