Gustard X-20u

[Misternavi]

Hi again , How are you finding the Dac , any issues to report , how was the transaction dealing with Ebay.

I currently have a ESS Sabre Dac set up , i THINK i like the sound , very interested in a non bias opinion of your set up , im sure this would sound more revealing then mine

Thanks in advance

Steve

if you use the USB input you need a uptone audio REGEN.

I think it is some what neutral and does drift over to the cold clinical side a bit (sometimes i think it's great sometimes i think it just needs a touch of warmth)

For the last few days i was looking around for a tube power amp. Thinking that would solve the problem but i know i'm a solid state person (can't even do class a anymore).

i just put some Stillpoints ERS on the capacitors and clock, usually this cleans up the sound even more but this time I think it has robbed the unit of some bass. maybe i will take it off the clock.

Also, no issues with ebay purchase only it was 2-3 days late of the expected arrival 16-24th sept. Purchased around the 8th sept.

Sent from my iPhone using Telepathy

Tried different filters with DSD: 50/70kHz and couldn't tell the difference

Tried different Clock modes - auto and normal and couldn't tell the difference

could be my crappy ears or the difference was so minor that I couldn't pick it up.

[dynaudio_tube]

On 9/7/2016 at 10:44 PM, misternavi said:

Tried different Clock modes - auto and normal and couldn't tell the difference

 

For me Auto had a wider and back row soundstage. Normal was more narrow and front mid row.

[Misternavi]

@dynaudio_tube ok, mods completed so far on my Gustard:

1/ twisted the power lines inside

2/8A silver plated fuse

3/stillpoints ERS on the main electrolytic Caps

 

 

Want to compare the it to yours sometime soon?

 

[dynaudio_tube]

@misternavi would love to but busy in the next month. my hifi hasn't been turned on for about 3 weeks. 

what differences have you heard with the mods?

[Misternavi]

@dynaudio_tube I Don't know for sure. I think a little bit more clarity from mids to high. let's wait as i want to isolate the transformers as tweakmods suggest.

 

[Prada]

I have Gustard X20U too. I used to be in the camp where I thought upsampling my sample rate was awesome. I use WASAPI with Foobar2k these days. I'm a headphone user and I can kinda tell the difference for each upsample sample rate (eg. 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 192) if I listened to my stock .flac 44.1 kHz music in Windows OS. If I do a A/B blind test I'd probably fail but sighted I can tell. I used to prefer 88.2 upsample because it's double the 44.1 kHz in my music but now I run WASAPI and I'm speechless why didn't I do this sooner. I hope you try WASAPI because I don't want you to sell the DAC. It has that digital feel. I don't care about Sabre glare. When the $55K Sennheiser HE-1 has a Sabre ES9018 chip in it too. But Gustard X20 had dual ones. 

[Misternavi]

I have Gustard X20U too. I used to be in the camp where I thought upsampling my sample rate was awesome. I use WASAPI with Foobar2k these days. I'm a headphone user and I can kinda tell the difference for each upsample sample rate (eg. 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 192) if I listened to my stock .flac 44.1 kHz music in Windows OS. If I do a A/B blind test I'd probably fail but sighted I can tell. I used to prefer 88.2 upsample because it's double the 44.1 kHz in my music but now I run WASAPI and I'm speechless why didn't I do this sooner. I hope you try WASAPI because I don't want you to sell the DAC. It has that digital feel. I don't care about Sabre glare. When the $55K Sennheiser HE-1 has a Sabre ES9018 chip in it too. But Gustard X20 had dual ones. [emoji3]

what's WASAPI?
mac user here.




Sent from my iPhone using Telepathy

[Misternavi]

@Prada ok, just checked out WASAPI, not a windows user so doesn't apply to me. I've been enjoying the streaming my music via  AppleTV from my computer, may not sound as good as MACbook pro/audirvana>> REGEN>>Gustard but so much convenient.

[Prada]

31 minutes ago, misternavi said:

what's WASAPI?
mac user here.




Sent from my iPhone using Telepathy

 

It's for Windows OS users. What WASAPI is, is in this link https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

"WASAPI is a hardware communication system in Vista, Windows 7, and newer. When used in exclusive mode, the Windows system mixer is bypassed, but other applications cannot simultaneously use the audio device."

 

I'm sure there's one for Mac users. In the link https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes it says you could use Core Audio.

"On OS X MC uses Core Audio to access your audio device, which provides bit-perfect playback, and requires no configuration."

[tripitaka]

On 7 September 2016 at 10:44 PM, misternavi said:

 

I think it is some what neutral and does drift over to the cold clinical side a bit (sometimes i think it's great sometimes i think it just needs a touch of warmth)

For the last few days i was looking around for a tube power amp. Thinking that would solve the problem but i know i'm a solid state person

 

Hi Sir, this is exactly my experience and I wonder if you might let me know whether you ended up keeping this dac and, if so, how you accomodated the perceived lack of warmth? 

I happen to have the x20 pro version, but I'm sure everything is pretty much the same as the x20. This dac was $twice what I have previously paid for dacs, so I don't really know whether to blame it, or my untrained ears. Some tracks play through this dac like I could never imagine that the sound could be improved (very detailed and sometimes breathtaking) but other tracks just sound annoying and I feel tempted to put my last el cheapo dac back into the system.

Is 'warmth' really just artificial colouration, or are ESS chips shouty and trebly when playing PCM, as many have written on various forums...

I was never expecting $3k performance (it was $990aud landed), so suggestions about what dac I should have bought costing twice as much wont really satisfy me.  I guess I just want to better understand my reaction to this dac from the experience of others who are further along the 'audiophile spectrum' than me.

Thanks!!

[Misternavi]

10 hours ago, tripitaka said:

 
Hi Sir, this is exactly my experience and I wonder if you might let me know whether you ended up keeping this dac and, if so, how you accomodated the perceived lack of warmth? 
I happen to have the x20 pro version, but I'm sure everything is pretty much the same as the x20. This dac was $twice what I have previously paid for dacs, so I don't really know whether to blame it, or my untrained ears. Some tracks play through this dac like I could never imagine that the sound could be improved (very detailed and sometimes breathtaking) but other tracks just sound annoying and I feel tempted to put my last el cheapo dac back into the system.
Is 'warmth' really just artificial colouration, or are ESS chips shouty and trebly when playing PCM, as many have written on various forums...
I was never expecting $3k performance (it was $990aud landed), so suggestions about what dac I should have bought costing twice as much wont really satisfy me.  I guess I just want to better understand my reaction to this dac from the experience of others who are further along the 'audiophile spectrum' than me.
Thanks!!

 

 

careful matching is required for this DAC.

But i think that is required for most audio gear.
I think this DAC will go well with a warm sounding pre or amp.

i'm using the x-20 with a SUPER smooth sounding mid-70's hitachi receiver and it sounds wonderful.

yes, warmth is artificial but in a good way (and it's not for everyone).
I've been using it with  MacBook Pro w/audirvana converting files to DSD256 and iPhone SE with onkyo HF player converting files to DSD128 

all via USB>> uptone audio  REGEN + teradak PSU >>x-20u and it does sound smoother than just DAC alone. Maybe it is sabre chips sounding harder on PCM or the way it's implemented. 


Sent from my iPhone using Telepathy

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by misternavi

[tripitaka]

Thank you misternavi for the clear and helpful answer!

 

I' m happy to hear it worked out for you.

 

I hope also to make this dac sound good in my system, so I'm going to try the upsampling route and will report back in due course (these things always take me a while).  

 

It does make perfect sense since, after all, delta/sigma dacs are supposed to handle DSD much better than PCM, so why not give it to 'em.  I had been concerned that this seemingly unnecessary conversion might degrade the signal but have since learned that this need not be the case.  

 

I doubt I would even consider altering my pre/power amp setup, which cost many times the price of this dac.

 

Anyway, fingers crossed...

[tripitaka]

Hi, Tripitaka reporting back on the Gustard X20pro as I promised.

 

What I said back on 2 June regarding coldness and generally shrill and annoying sound can be entirely 'stricken from the record'.  

 

I had made those original comments after a long burn-in so I don't believe burn-in to have affected my change of mind.

 

What happended is that I finally organised pcm to dsd conversion (2xspeed) to feed the unit using i2s LVDS signal format over the HDMI input using twisted pair network cable...and this baby is staying right where it is, it is magnificent!!

 

Now, it should be obvious from my prior posts that I sympathise with those who have found this unit disappointing (I was obviously one such individual) and I will also admit that it was a royal PITA organising the i2s input (not helped by Gustard mucking up their wiring protocol). 

 

For the record, I am using chip-based upsampling provided by an external unit (LKS SRC100) but that's only coz I don't have a PC anywhere in my setup. I can't comment on supplying dsd over the USB port since I bought the X20pro version without any USB input (and even enthusistic Gustard users seem to report that it is preferrable to use a separate digital interface as the USB input anyway).  I also can't comment on how much my improvement is due to the dsd pre-conversion and how much is due to engaging the i2s interface (or even reclocking by the upsampler, for that matter).

 

In conclusion, I feel this product seems inadequate when used as a traditional PCM dac, but for those who can be bothered 'tweaking' it offers much potential. I am finally very happy.

 

Thanks Tripitaka

Edited July 10, 2017 by tripitaka
typo

[Misternavi]

@tripitaka
Good to hear it is going good for you. 
I looked at getting an external USB to is2 converter one time but i just couldn't be bothered with another box.

i.

[NordicNorm]

I too have the Gustard x20 Pro DAC. I have mine connected to a Singxer SU-1 DDC via I2S.

 

Both of these units are highly modifiable (which I am in the process of doing). So far I have added an SBooster to the SU-1 to clean up the power (see attached pic).

 

They replaced a Teac UD-501, which I thought was a huge improvement over my Schiit Bifrost.

 

Until I heard this combo, I didn't know what "jitter" was. Or, at least I now know what the absence of jitter sounds like!

[tripitaka]

Hi there Norm, nice work with the power supply. I use a linear power supply for the upsampler that feeds my Gustard x20pro too.

 

Glad its working out nicely.   I'm happy too, but its interesting that we've each spent several hundred bucks beyond the basic dac price (and in my case a great deal of mucking about with connections).

 

Since my earlier post, I'm prepared to double down on the idea that this is not really a PCM dac, if for no other reason than the insanely high voltage it outputs on PCM (up to 6.5v balanced, at least in 230v countries) and trying to reduce that voltage steals 'bits' (one bit per 6dB, I am told) from the signal, which one can ill-afford when playing only with 16bit Redbook!  Inputting over DSD at least has the advantage of being intrinsically quieter to start with, plus the volume reduction doesnt seem to destroy the signal integrity.

 

On the question of value, one effectively gets no warranty since the transport costs to China are prohibitive and I can advise new owners that the on/off switch lasts no time at all until it starts swivelling - my solution was to drill a hole into the spindle to 'catch' the inwardly protruding screw.

 

While I'm happy with the unit in the configuration I ended up with, I really couldn't recommend it as anything but a DSD-only dac.  On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder if that might be generally the best way to listen to delta-sigma dacs (other than high end ones) anyway and that I should be overjoyed to have discovered this!  Either that or stick with PCM and go for an R2R dac, which seem to be entering a golden age of affordability.

 

 

Edit:  my comments do not apply to USB input since I dont have such input on the version I purchased.

 

Trip.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by tripitaka
clarified

[NordicNorm]

On 9/6/2016 at 9:07 AM, dynaudio_tube said:

 

 

What is your Sabre DAC?

 

As you know I have a Gustard X20 as well and it's well run in. It's very revealing compared to a iDSD Micro.

If you're running USB into your Gustard, you should take a serious look at the Singxer SU-1 DDC. It takes hi-res significantly up a notch on the Gustard.

[MattyW]

Running a X-12U which I also find to be a very natural sounding unit, though I recently got a S.M.S.L M8 which after burn in is pretty darn nice for a fraction of the cost. Not using the USB input on that though

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Addicted to music]

Massdrop has a Gustard x22 that consist of a single ESS9038pro for $899US

 

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x22?utm_placement=2&referer=TDL2GH&mode=guest_open&utm_campaign=Automated Daily Promotional 2018-05-24&utm_source=SparkPost&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily Promotional&utm_content=1527142339727.515231731880053379539961

 

in traditional Gustard Standards the built quality is superb.  There is rumours that a dual ESS9038pro chip version on its way.  

[Misternavi]

do you think they just slotted the new chip into old circuit board?

i’m very curious to hear the new dac and compare to the x-20.

[Addicted to music]

24 minutes ago, misternavi said:

do you think they just slotted the new chip into old circuit board?

i’m very curious to hear the new dac and compare to the x-20.

If ESS was more transparent to the general public I may be able to tell if there was a point to point or block diagram.  However ESS has withdrawn all technical data from there website so I can’t tell whether it’s compatible to the old 9018.  Even if it was from what I’ve heard the output impedance is 4x less as it parallels 4  dacs in stack mode so you need different voltage regulation to cope with the different current rating and it’s why there is a white block stuck on the 9038pro chip in the OPPO 205 and none on the OPPO105 with the 9018.  

2ndly if it was just a direct slot in, unless you have the equipment to unsolder a multipin chip I wouldn’t even try.  The 9038pro is around the $100US so no I wouldn’t just slot it in if I wasn’t confident.  

This x22 is a single chip, so wait for the dual one version to come out as in mono configuration they better there figures.

[Misternavi]

If ESS was more transparent to the general public I may be able to tell if there was a point to point or block diagram.  However ESS has withdrawn all technical data from there website so I can’t tell whether it’s compatible to the old 9018.  Even if it was from what I’ve heard the output impedance is 4x less as it parallels 4  dacs in stack mode so you need different voltage regulation to cope with the different current rating and it’s why there is a white block stuck on the 9038pro chip in the OPPO 205 and none on the OPPO105 with the 9018.  

2ndly if it was just a direct slot in, unless you have the equipment to unsolder a multipin chip I wouldn’t even try.  The 9038pro is around the $100US so no I wouldn’t just slot it in if I wasn’t confident.  

This x22 is a single chip, so wait for the dual one version to come out as in mono configuration they better there figures.

i couldn’t even solder an op amp.

 

i’m in no rush to upgrade my DAC but will look into the dual dac when it comes out.

i think i will stay with Sabre chips as i recently tried a R2R audiogd dac and found it too smooth for my taste.

 

[Misternavi]

shamless plug time.

i’m going to sell my Gustard as i now have a matching musiclabs amp and dac even though the gustard is better.

[Guest Benjet]

Hi there Norm, nice work with the power supply. I use a linear power supply for the upsampler that feeds my Gustard x20pro too.
 
Glad its working out nicely.   I'm happy too, but its interesting that we've each spent several hundred bucks beyond the basic dac price (and in my case a great deal of mucking about with connections).
 
Since my earlier post, I'm prepared to double down on the idea that this is not really a PCM dac, if for no other reason than the insanely high voltage it outputs on PCM (up to 6.5v balanced, at least in 230v countries) and trying to reduce that voltage steals 'bits' (one bit per 6dB, I am told) from the signal, which one can ill-afford when playing only with 16bit Redbook!  Inputting over DSD at least has the advantage of being intrinsically quieter to start with, plus the volume reduction doesnt seem to destroy the signal integrity.
 
On the question of value, one effectively gets no warranty since the transport costs to China are prohibitive and I can advise new owners that the on/off switch lasts no time at all until it starts swivelling - my solution was to drill a hole into the spindle to 'catch' the inwardly protruding screw.
 
While I'm happy with the unit in the configuration I ended up with, I really couldn't recommend it as anything but a DSD-only dac.  On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder if that might be generally the best way to listen to delta-sigma dacs (other than high end ones) anyway and that I should be overjoyed to have discovered this!  Either that or stick with PCM and go for an R2R dac, which seem to be entering a golden age of affordability.
 
 
Edit:  my comments do not apply to USB input since I dont have such input on the version I purchased.
 
Trip.
 

Hi Trip,
just came across this post and thought I might add my experience with the x20 pro. I originally was running the unit from the USB interface and wasn’t overly impressed with the sound. Was a bit to far on the cold/clinical side. Played around with different file formats including DSD. Wasn’t really doing it for me so I went and got a Pink Faun pci-e to i2s interface card for my media pc. That fixed it!!! Much better and was even better after the removal of the USB interface from the DAC. I use this DAC in my headphone setup which includes 3 different amps, a tube, a hybrid and a solid state. Up until I added the Pink Faun interface, I was limited to using the Gustard solely with the tube amp and resorted to another DAC for the other amps. Now the Gustard sounds great on all three and the other DAC has migrated out to the Hifi system. The Gustard keeps going from strengths to strengths. I listen mainly to Tidal through Roon and the addition of feeding it with a decoded MQA signal has got this unit singing. Really happy with my Gustard now.

[NordicNorm]

35 minutes ago, Benjet said:

Hi Trip,
just came across this post and thought I might add my experience with the x20 pro. I originally was running the unit from the USB interface and wasn’t overly impressed with the sound. Was a bit to far on the cold/clinical side. Played around with different file formats including DSD. Wasn’t really doing it for me so I went and got a Pink Faun pci-e to i2s interface card for my media pc. That fixed it!!! Much better and was even better after the removal of the USB interface from the DAC. I use this DAC in my headphone setup which includes 3 different amps, a tube, a hybrid and a solid state. Up until I added the Pink Faun interface, I was limited to using the Gustard solely with the tube amp and resorted to another DAC for the other amps. Now the Gustard sounds great on all three and the other DAC has migrated out to the Hifi system. The Gustard keeps going from strengths to strengths. I listen mainly to Tidal through Roon and the addition of feeding it with a decoded MQA signal has got this unit singing. Really happy with my Gustard now.

I find there is a noticeable difference when using the Singxer SU-1 DDC with the Gustard x20 Pro's USB.

 

But I'm also running tubed preamp and monoblocks.