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Digital Man

Garrott P77

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I have the Sapphire in my V15 type III, best stylus I ever bought for it.

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So $400 is a retip or the whole stylus assembly?
The stylus assembly. I think i have found my answer in the post above!

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Thaker have the SAS 1 and i think they have stock.....

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Well i bit the bullet and sold my Nagoaka MP500 which i hope i won't regret and bought a SAS 1 from Thaker in Germany. Price was $300 including tracked shipping to my door.
Let's hope it is better than the original stylus which in my system is very nice indeed.....

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From other discussions on this thread I’ll assume the SAS1 stylus is a drop in replacement of the current one and comes with the promise of better tracking and sound.  I understood the microscanner to be an extreme diamond profile to start with.  Can it be improved on? 

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30 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

 I understood the microscanner to be an extreme diamond profile to start with.  Can it be improved on? 

You can improve most of them with much better set up. Microridge sylii are a tad more finicky than others, a point the late G brothers made clear many years ago.

 

The P77 is a very nice cart. I have an original here ready to use when the new SP10 is done.

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From other discussions on this thread I’ll assume the SAS1 stylus is a drop in replacement of the current one and comes with the promise of better tracking and sound.  I understood the microscanner to be an extreme diamond profile to start with.  Can it be improved on? 
I think i have read every review i could about this stylus. By all accounts it should bring more to the party, i just hope it doesn't compromise on the strengths i hear with the original.

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You can improve most of them with much better set up. Microridge sylii are a tad more finicky than others, a point the late G brothers made clear many years ago.
 
The P77 is a very nice cart. I have an original here ready to use when the new SP10 is done.
I'd love to hear more about setting up the P77 better.
My skill in this department is limited to self taught from online videos and reading.
A tip given here that did work for my ear was adjusting the vta with the arm pillar up around 4mm from level. I wonder if this would be the same for the Jico?

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Out of interest is the Garrott P77 the same as the A&R P77, I have a new one unused in the box A&R P77 in my stash.

 

I used to have a A&R P78 but search as much as I can I cannot find the thing, if I ever do I may put a SAS -1 in it.

 

Ken

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3 minutes ago, Ken said:

Out of interest is the Garrott P77 the same as the A&R P77, I have a new one unused in the box A&R P77 in my stash.

 

I used to have a A&R P78 but search as much as I can I cannot find the thing, if I ever do I may put a SAS -1 in it.

 

Ken

The Garrott brothers took the A&R Cambridge P77 and turned it into the Garrott P77. Styli are interchangeable.👍

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From my reading the Garrott brothers tinkered/tuned the engine/coils.

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FYI the Tonar Diabolic!

Not wishing to hijack this thread but has anyone investigated this bargain MM cartridge?

https://snvinyl.co.uk/Tonar-Diabolic-E-DJ-Disco-Cartridge-8mv-MM

<This is a high quality moving magnet cartridge designed primarily for DJ & Disco use, but has also found favour with audiophiles thanks to its sound quality and Elliptical Diamond stylus. The already dynamic sounding original cartridge comes with a lot of refinement, too once modified.Certainly not a competitor to top MC systems, but so appealing in character that it delivers a lot of listening fun. Maybe a silly (and not quite precise) food comparis makes you get the idea.If your High End MC cartridge is Champagne and star cuisine, then this MM system is Whiskey with a BBQ Steak.

I've found the cartridge to really excel with rock-n-roll records, but there are still timest. For example, on Transformer the bass is full and round in just the foundational way that I want it to be. It's big and in-your-face without tubbiness or any obvious distortion. Of course, it's also less than neutral, but I hardly care about that when it sounds so much like real-life rock-n-roll sex music.-Lenco

It is still possible: you can buy in well-known marketplaces disc players, which are still far from the 100 euro mark. This can even be a device that provides decent quality. If it still does not sound, the problem almost always at the very front of the tonearm. ... The Tonar system offers ... an appealing performance, perhaps playing a track harder and more mid-tweeter than the ATs - in any case, it does not have to go back in terms of quality behind the proven hi-fi systems. LP Germany

Tonar – Diabolic E cartridge with high output : 8mV.
The Diabolic-E cartridge is suitable for classic mixing and scratching.
The stylus has an eliptical diamond needle for excellent playback and reliability.
 
Ebony or Cocobolo Improved Wood Body Version
( with simply  partial emoval of standard plastic body for improved performance ) 
Ideal Low Cu Cartridge for new / classic High Mass / Medium Mass - Jelco / Sme etc
wooden body version . I really like this cart especially with the mods, if you have original 50's and 60's Jazz vinyl the sound is very addictive to say the least. Ive tried the combo on a wide range of music and still enjoy the sound its awesome on rock music from the 70's. - LPReview >
 
some more info:
 
Several wood bodies are available for the Tonar. 
Thomas Schick even offered a highly modified version for a while, you can see pics and read about it here. The stylus assembly is stripped of all of its plastic, if you have a steady hand with a skalpel it could be DIY
< I offer this cartridge with a modified needle assembly.

The plastic around is being cut away. This makes a very big difference, even to glued assemblies, which is a common ‘trick’ to improve systems with removable needle.
Glueing does not eliminate the problem of the massive amount of thin walled plastic at the needle assembly,it dampens the effect a little. Once cut away the problem is eliminated.

Also the colored dot on the needle is removed, reulting in a lighter cantilever.

Then there is the new housing from the same material I use for my plinths. Very good sound properties here as well, the cartridge is fitted without any cavities, as opposed to the original plastic case.

The already dynamic sounding original cartridge comes with a lot of refinement, too once modified.
Certainly not a competitor to top MC systems, but so appealing in character that it delivers a lot of listening fun.

Maybe a silly (and not quite precise) food comparism makes you get the idea.
If your High End MC cartridge is Champagne and star cuisine, then this MM system is Whiskey with a BBQ Steak.

The modified cartridge is available only together with a graphite headshell. The cartridge is pre mount and cabled in the headshell. >

 

One correspondent says this on a Tonar Diabolic thread

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=23461.0

< Appears to be a variant of Nagaoka 321 also branded as Technics epc 270c. Very good cart, but if you think the vtf is high you can try the Technics or Nagaoka needle. It tracks at 1,8 gram. >

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/mystery-nagaoka-cart.551157/

 

meanwhile here's how Stanley Enginneering De do a wood body conversion on AT95E. the process for their body on Tonar very similar.

regards Ian

 

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Thanks for the heads up Ian and some food for thought especially in the budget cart category.

Well the Jico SAS 1 arrived a week after i ordered online. It was packaged well and the tracking number given by Thaker in Germany gave me added confidence all was well.

I paid $300 aus including postage opting to buy direct from their website. I found Thaker's communication prompt and reassuring with any questions i had, so full marks for the buying experience.

The stylus was a simple pull out and install and now i have a guard on the P77 which is very much appreciated. I have been playing around with VTF from 1g to 1.25g and settled on 1.20g. I also had to adjust the cart on the tonearm and moved it back about 2mm to give me the required alignment.
Again i have been playing around with the VTA and have settled on a 4mm lift at the pillar from level.

After doing this i decided to pull out my hifi news test record. Well the cart failed on the second track.

"My voice should be coming from the left speaker"

well it was but nothing like the right channel. The sound was muted and echoed. I can't believe I've been listening to my system like this for over a year! Basically working back from the cart pins i found the problem. I have four signal out options on the back of my pre amp and they are not identified red/black and as all the inputs are in parallel cd, tuner etc i presumed the out was too! Wrong!

Anyway what can i say I'm an idiot and well what an obvious difference...

Back to the test record, the SAS performed really well and showed my TT has a slight bias issue this only presented when the test tones became difficult.

Now onto the stylus itself. Straight off it sounded very, very nice. Different than the Garrott stylus the SAS1was like a fine bottle of wine that had just been opened. I found the cart took about 10 sides to settle and now it just sounds superb.

Vocals are more realistic and emotional, bass is tight and full. Overall a very smooth sound with heaps more timbre and grip!

The soundstage has become deeper and wider though this can be attributed to my stupid wiring mistake!

Details are amazing, i am hearing so many different sounds inside the mix of records i know very, very well, lovely sparkling highs and punchy percussion. Words flow and are easy to hear, fantastic decay of notes. It tracks really nicely though it sits quite low to the record, this won't be good on warped records.

I could go on and on but basically i am really happy with my purchase, i am loving playing everything in my collection and the sound signature seems to suit everything from rock to reggae to electronic and jazz.... A very happy SAS 1 convert here.

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34 minutes ago, TOPSHELF said:

Thanks for the heads up Ian and some food for thought especially in the budget cart category.

Well the Jico SAS 1 arrived a week after i ordered online. It was packaged well and the tracking number given by Thaker in Germany gave me added confidence all was well.

I paid $300 aus including postage opting to buy direct from their website. I found Thaker's communication prompt and reassuring with any questions i had, so full marks for the buying experience.

The stylus was a simple pull out and install and now i have a guard on the P77 which is very much appreciated. I have been playing around with VTF from 1g to 1.25g and settled on 1.20g. I also had to adjust the cart on the tonearm and moved it back about 2mm to give me the required alignment.
Again i have been playing around with the VTA and have settled on a 4mm lift at the pillar from level.

After doing this i decided to pull out my hifi news test record. Well the cart failed on the second track.

"My voice should be coming from the left speaker"

well it was but nothing like the right channel. The sound was muted and echoed. I can't believe I've been listening to my system like this for over a year! Basically working back from the cart pins i found the problem. I have four signal out options on the back of my pre amp and they are not identified red/black and as all the inputs are in parallel cd, tuner etc i presumed the out was too! Wrong!

Anyway what can i say I'm an idiot and well what an obvious difference...

Back to the test record, the SAS performed really well and showed my TT has a slight bias issue this only presented when the test tones became difficult.

Now onto the stylus itself. Straight off it sounded very, very nice. Different than the Garrott stylus the SAS1was like a fine bottle of wine that had just been opened. I found the cart took about 10 sides to settle and now it just sounds superb.

Vocals are more realistic and emotional, bass is tight and full. Overall a very smooth sound with heaps more timbre and grip!

The soundstage has become deeper and wider though this can be attributed to my stupid wiring mistake!

Details are amazing, i am hearing so many different sounds inside the mix of records i know very, very well, lovely sparkling highs and punchy percussion. Words flow and are easy to hear, fantastic decay of notes. It tracks really nicely though it sits quite low to the record, this won't be good on warped records.

I could go on and on but basically i am really happy with my purchase, i am loving playing everything in my collection and the sound signature seems to suit everything from rock to reggae to electronic and jazz.... A very happy SAS 1 convert here.
 

Good to hear a positive result. I dont have your fancy pants cartridge but also enjoying my P77i. Best move I’ve made. 

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Hi Mark, i was pretty happy with the old P77 and now i am blown away. I doubt there would be much difference between the SAS 1 and the P77i.
They are such a great cartridge to start with.

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2 hours ago, TOPSHELF said:

Hi Mark, i was pretty happy with the old P77 and now i am blown away. I doubt there would be much difference between the SAS 1 and the P77i.
They are such a great cartridge to start with.

Mate, I was a big fan of the K3 but the P77i is just so much better. And still very inexpensive. 

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I thought i would report back with my impressions of the sas stylus in the P77i.
I found that the Jico has a lovely subtlety to it's presentation it reminded me of my MP500 but the sas has a bit more get up and go and not such a flat frequency response. If i was to liken it to wine this would be a smooth and silky pinot noir!

So i couldn't help but try the stock stylus back in the P77i and once again i sat there with a huge grin on my face. The depth, the clarity and seperation is there in spades the stock cart definately has a different signature weighty and full like a very good Shiraz with nice plum and pepper after notes!




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13 minutes ago, TOPSHELF said:

I thought i would report back with my impressions of the sas stylus in the P77i.
I found that the Jico has a lovely subtlety to it's presentation it reminded me of my MP500 but the sas has a bit more get up and go and not such a flat frequency response. If i was to liken it to wine this would be a smooth and silky pinot noir!

So i couldn't help but try the stock stylus back in the P77i and once again i sat there with a huge grin on my face. The depth, the clarity and seperation is there in spades the stock cart definately has a different signature weighty and full like a very good Shiraz with nice plum and pepper after notes!



 

I’ll drink to that.

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4 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

I’ll drink to that.

As a reasonably long term owner of a P77i, I can only concur and on a price V performance basis I don't know of a better cart.

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I agree and will be happily drinking Shiraz here.....

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Hi P77 devotees,

A few months ago when this thread was alive, I enquired with Expert Stylus about their A&R P77 replacement stylus, which fits the original Garrott P77 cartridge. Just to clarify, I'm not referring to the current P77i version.

It costs 120 squid plus postage, and here's some info quoted by them....

 

"....the price is for the the A&R P77 assembly fitted with our Paratrace profile diamond which will fit your cartridge body. Our Paratrace profile diamond is regarded as the most advanced and best diamond available today and we also fit it to Koetsu, Clear Audio and other expensive moving coil cartridges which customers send us for re-tipping. 
The Garrot Brothers copied the A&R P77 cartridge, they are very similar but both have different diamonds fitted."

 

So just to recap on the replacment styli options for the original P77 (not the current 'i' version):

There's this one, the ESCO Paratrace;

The original if you can find one;

The Jico SAS-1 (if/when available);

The Shure N91E (not ED);

Any others??

 

@TOPSHELF, in your previous post, are you referring to using the SAS-1 on the original P77 or current P77i? It can get a bit confusing!

 


 

 

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My experience was putting a SAS-1 on an old but not sure how old.... P77i.

What was the difference between the P77 and P77i? Has any one had a direct comparison about the two?

Interesting to know there is another option.

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