Vintage and older amps, what to expect.

[Primare Knob]

Hi,

 

For some reason I started looking into older and vintage amplifiers because I am starting to like the look of it. Either I have become of vintage age, or it is the age where vintage is cool. I do hope it is the latter.

 

If they age just like me, than I might expect a few quirks and a bit of maintenance to buff up the aged interior.

 

What things should I take into account, when buying an older amp, or other equipment? An internet search came up with a couple of things.

- Bias/DC adjustment. Can this be done with any amp?

- Checking and replacing capacitors. The lifespan of these things seem to vary from 10 - 30 years. Would you replace all of them?

- Resolder dry joints. This seems to differ with how hot the unit runs and if it frequently has been turned on and off. Would you resolder every individual dry joint or just in some particular areas?

 

There are probably even more things that I haven't found out yet and looking at these, is it really worth the trouble?

Would a similar priced modern amp being able to catch up with an older or vintage high end unit?

 

I wouldn't mind trying some stuff, but how much cash would I need to keep at hand, to make this an enjoying experience?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Hi,

 

For some reason I started looking into older and vintage amplifiers because I am starting to like the look of it. Either I have become of vintage age, or it is the age where vintage is cool. I do hope it is the latter.

 

If they age just like me, than I might expect a few quirks and a bit of maintenance to buff up the aged interior.

 

What things should I take into account, when buying an older amp, or other equipment?

The usual cosmetic stuff, but the big one is what you don't see: If the product has been bodged by a lazy or incompetent tech at some time. For this, you will probably need to run your purchase past someone who knows. Most of us old fart techs (not many left now) can spot a product that has been poorly serviced.

An internet search came up with a couple of things.

- Bias/DC adjustment. Can this be done with any amp?

Usually.

- Checking and replacing capacitors. The lifespan of these things seem to vary from 10 - 30 years. Would you replace all of them?

In general, no. For two reasons:

* Large capacitors can last a very long time and rarely require replacement.

* Large capacitors can cost a very large chunk of cash and may price your wild purchase into areas where SWMBO might hit the roof.

- Resolder dry joints. This seems to differ with how hot the unit runs and if it frequently has been turned on and off. Would you resolder every individual dry joint or just in some particular areas?

Dodgy solder joints can occur for a number of reasons, but the big ones are usually:

* Hot running components. After several years of high temps, solder joints can fail.

* Poorly executed joints during manufacture (this happens a lot more than anyone likes to admit). Very rarely with US and Australian equipment, but quite common with Euro stuff and somewhat less often with Japanese stuff.

Switching on and off has nothing to do with solder joint intgrity.

There are probably even more things that I haven't found out yet and looking at these, is it really worth the trouble?

Only you can answer that. I like some old stuff. Particularly test equipment. But it tends to be built to very high standards.

Would a similar priced modern amp being able to catch up with an older or vintage high end unit?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. IT depends on which old gear and which new gear you are talking about.

I wouldn't mind trying some stuff, but how much cash would I need to keep at hand, to make this an enjoying experience?

Depends on what you want to buy. Are you talking about speakers, amp, tuner and turntable. Or just one item. At the low end of the scale, you can spend almost nothing. At the high end, you can easily drop $50k. Depending on what you call 'vintage', of course. A vintage pair of Duntech Sovereigns and appropriate vintage amplification + Sota Star TT + Dynavector DV507 + 17D would set you back $30k. And it would be worth every penny and blow away most modern systems costing as much as an S-Class Benz.

[Primare Knob]

Depends on what you want to buy. Are you talking about speakers, amp, tuner and turntable. Or just one item. At the low end of the scale, you can spend almost nothing. At the high end, you can easily drop $50k. Depending on what you call 'vintage', of course. A vintage pair of Duntech Sovereigns and appropriate vintage amplification + Sota Star TT + Dynavector DV507 + 17D would set you back $30k. And it would be worth every penny and blow away most modern systems costing as much as an S-Class Benz.

I am looking into buying an Electrocompaniet ECI 3. After contacting Norway whit the serial number they told me the unit is 15 years old, and could use a DC\Bias adjustment. The unit already has a repair slip that states that dry joints have been resoldered on the main circuit board.

 

Trying to figure out if I need to keep some cash in hand with my budget for servicing.

 

The other thing I am playing with is, that I have an old radiogram cabinet that I like to "upgrade" with an amp, turntable, speakers and or tuner, and one of those amps with a lot of knobs, and meters will look good in the study. Good for inspiration and distraction.

[rockeater]

I am just now doing EC-3A preamp.

No one worked on it before, but there were some issues from poor manufacture.

Whereas manufacture was not the highest standard, engineering is superb.

ATM, when turned on, there is sometimes (when unit not used for a couple of days) a hum in the left channel.

It lasts 5 seconds and I pretty much now know which stage it is coming from as I managed to catch it once before caps charged.

 

As Zephod says, it will cost some money to re-cap it and otherwise it now works sweet.

I will let customer decide if he wants it back the way it is (and if he uses it every day, he would never know there is anything wrong with it), replace 5 caps in one of the 8 PSUs that is most likely to be at fault, or totally re-cap it.

13 x 1000µF/63V and 30 x 33µF/100V would cost me less than $50 for ordinary low ESR caps but using audiophile grade... could be more than the price of the pre-amp.

But there is a case here for total re-capping; if caps in one area dried up, soon it might happen in another and EC stuff is hard to take apart due to plexiglass being glued to the chassis with double sided tape. 

So it is do nothing at all or do it all and have peace of mind for a next decade or two.

[Addicted to music]

I've been looking at caps lately and it's been disappointing. As you get into the 100-150v range, the 10,000uf + are now beginning to be harder and harder to source. The typical E14, RS and Mouser are dropping than end of the range. I've been trying to source 125V 8200uf + and I'm not being successful with the above mentioned suppliers of the shelf. Something to be aware of as most modern electronics are employing lower voltages and smaller devices.

The other thing many forget is the volume control pot, most vintage stuff are typical mechanical pots, some pots such as the Alps that were used in Stax are now almost impossible to source, especially the ones where you can adjust balance on the pot itself.

[The Fez]

I am looking into buying an Electrocompaniet ECI 3. After contacting Norway whit the serial number they told me the unit is 15 years old, and could use a DC\Bias adjustment. The unit already has a repair slip that states that dry joints have been resoldered on the main circuit board.

 

Trying to figure out if I need to keep some cash in hand with my budget for servicing.

 

The other thing I am playing with is, that I have an old radiogram cabinet that I like to "upgrade" with an amp, turntable, speakers and or tuner, and one of those amps with a lot of knobs, and meters will look good in the study. Good for inspiration and distraction.

 

Start reading -- and reading - and reading -- 

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/

[Primare Knob]

 

This is a look from the inside. Not to sure what to think about that volume control.

If I would require a full do it all service with parts of the same quality, what would I roughly be looking at money wise?

[rockeater]

This is no vintage stuff.

This looks like a current model.

Vintage EC is from before Abrahamsen left, when they were still building it individually by hand (not that it was better that way, just too small scale to be worth outsourcing it).

Gone are the green MillionSpot relays, which if you google you get 2 hits (yes, 2 hits) and of which I only have 4 new spares.

Gone are 8 regulators for the preamp alone...

But PSU is far away from the low level inputs, volume pot is on the board, directly after line section, relays on the side are there probably to keep the noise from unused inputs out (cause people do not put blanking plugs as they are told in the manual), power transistors away from everything else. Star earthing evident on the left above relays. Hard to say much more from this low resolution photo.

Still a very nice amp.

Don't play with it, just use it and enjoy.

That is my advice.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I am looking into buying an Electrocompaniet ECI 3. After contacting Norway whit the serial number they told me the unit is 15 years old, and could use a DC\Bias adjustment. The unit already has a repair slip that states that dry joints have been resoldered on the main circuit board.

 

Trying to figure out if I need to keep some cash in hand with my budget for servicing.

 

The other thing I am playing with is, that I have an old radiogram cabinet that I like to "upgrade" with an amp, turntable, speakers and or tuner, and one of those amps with a lot of knobs, and meters will look good in the study. Good for inspiration and distraction.

I've serviced a few EC products over the years, but not an EC3. I've found the usual stuff: Electros, connectors and too hot running transistors are the usual suspects. I suspect the Norwegians never planned for their products to be used in hot environments like Australia. Maybe they're better now.

[Primare Knob]

This is no vintage stuff.

This looks like a current model.

Vintage EC is from before Abrahamsen left, when they were still building it individually by hand (not that it was better that way, just too small scale to be worth outsourcing it).

Gone are the green MillionSpot relays, which if you google you get 2 hits (yes, 2 hits) and of which I only have 4 new spares.

Gone are 8 regulators for the preamp alone...

But PSU is far away from the low level inputs, volume pot is on the board, directly after line section, relays on the side are there probably to keep the noise from unused inputs out (cause people do not put blanking plugs as they are told in the manual), power transistors away from everything else. Star earthing evident on the left above relays. Hard to say much more from this low resolution photo.

Still a very nice amp.

Don't play with it, just use it and enjoy.

That is my advice.

The picture isn't of the actual amp. Sorry for that. The amp I am talking about is 15 years old and not in my possession. Are the 8 regulators and MillionSpot relays prone to failure?

 

I've serviced a few EC products over the years, but not an EC3. I've found the usual stuff: Electros, connectors and too hot running transistors are the usual suspects. I suspect the Norwegians never planned for their products to be used in hot environments like Australia. Maybe they're better now.

Are these things that still can be serviced for a reasonable price?

 

In general, is sourcing parts problematic for older audio equipment? And does it make a difference if you go with an Asian, European or American made product?

The Radiogram cabinet is just a novelty that is going to be used, let's say, on a Sunday afternoon, and a little distortion, you could even call it authentic. The amp for the study is something that is going to be used on an almost daily base. When talking about the vintage amp for the study, would I source the speakers first and then source the amp, or the other way around. I assume that I cannot just hook up any loudspeaker with x impedance.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Are these things that still can be serviced for a reasonable price?

In general, certainly, though everyone has a different idea of a "reasonable price".

In general, is sourcing parts problematic for older audio equipment?

It can be, but EC tend to use readily available parts.

And does it make a difference if you go with an Asian, European or American made product?

Yes. European parts can be very expensive, but sometimes there is no suitable alternative. Which is not to say that they are better or worse.

The Radiogram cabinet is just a novelty that is going to be used, let's say, on a Sunday afternoon, and a little distortion, you could even call it authentic. The amp for the study is something that is going to be used on an almost daily base. When talking about the vintage amp for the study, would I source the speakers first and then source the amp, or the other way around. I assume that I cannot just hook up any loudspeaker with x impedance.

Well, it all depends on what you end up choosing. Obviously, it should be speakers first.

[Tasebass]

us old fart techs (not many left now) 

 

 

One simple statement that will determine your vintage audio enjoyment.......  

Edited August 5, 2016 by Tasebass

[Tasebass]

Well, it all depends on what you end up choosing. Obviously, it should be speakers first.

 

Not in my book.....source first rules IMO.....in fact vintage audio especially amps shine with a real decent front end...

 

I'm still blown away sometimes at how my bunch of vintage Rotel amps can sound when fed a good diet of electronic juice....  

Really enjoying an Esoteric X03 se spinner into my RA 11412+RX 1603...Yeah I know the X03 aint vintage..yet..but certainly sounds great...

 

Tase. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Tasebass

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

 

This is a look from the inside. Not to sure what to think about that volume control.

If I would require a full do it all service with parts of the same quality, what would I roughly be looking at money wise?

The amp doesn't look very old. Surely it doesn't require service yet? Anyway, to get down to it, from the pics, you would need to remove the heat sink and, possibly, the RCA sockets from the rear panel. Remove the volume pot extension and some connectors. Total cost of electros should run to less than $200.00 (for premium Asian parts - Nichicon, Panasonic) and, perhaps the same or a little more for labour.

[Primare Knob]

The amp doesn't look very old. Surely it doesn't require service yet? Anyway, to get down to it, from the pics, you would need to remove the heat sink and, possibly, the RCA sockets from the rear panel. Remove the volume pot extension and some connectors. Total cost of electros should run to less than $200.00 (for premium Asian parts - Nichicon, Panasonic) and, perhaps the same or a little more for labour.

Yeah, sorry. Should have stated that this is a random pick from the internet, I believe this is a 2009 model, but I don't own the amp yet. The ECI-3 has been long into production but I don't know what changes they might have made. The amp I am talking about is 15 years old.

 

When talking about vintage equipment, amps, turntable, speakers. Are there any brands that are a saver bet than others?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Yeah, sorry. Should have stated that this is a random pick from the internet, I believe this is a 2009 model, but I don't own the amp yet. The ECI-3 has been long into production but I don't know what changes they might have made. The amp I am talking about is 15 years old.

 

When talking about vintage equipment, amps, turntable, speakers. Are there any brands that are a saver bet than others?

Depends on:

Age

Condition

What it will be driving

Price range

Expectations

I believe my preferences are well known in this area.

[Green Wagon]

My view on this is.

 

If your not planning on learning some basic electronics.

Spending a few years minimum to learn what isn't taught in any school/college/training center.

 

Then you will be 100% at the mercy of what you buy, and where you take it to be worked on.

As such, you will have to be prepared for the occasional buttsex you will get from those you take it to that say it is or isnt repairable and how much they want to either tell you this or actually do the repair.

 

Best part with older gear isn't always the repairing of the fault.

It's the correction and correct repair of what the previous ham fisted hole digger has done to the thing with his to hot or to cold brazing iron.

 

Like all second hand things.

The winner is the person that knows when to walk away......

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

My view on this is.

 

If your not planning on learning some basic electronics.

Spending a few years minimum to learn what isn't taught in any school/college/training center.

 

Then you will be 100% at the mercy of what you buy, and where you take it to be worked on.

As such, you will have to be prepared for the occasional buttsex you will get from those you take it to that say it is or isnt repairable and how much they want to either tell you this or actually do the repair.

 

Best part with older gear isn't always the repairing of the fault.

It's the correction and correct repair of what the previous ham fisted hole digger has done to the thing with his to hot or to cold brazing iron.

 

Like all second hand things.

The winner is the person that knows when to walk away......

A few years back, I acquired and refurbished a Marantz 2325 receiver. New electros, LED back-lighting, cleaned, adjust, the works. It looked and sounded very nice. I sold it for $600.00. I've seen the same model on eBay for North of $1,500.00 recently.

Guess who got the best end of the deal?

Hint: Is was not me.

[Primare Knob]

On a different note, does anyone have an old amp/tuner that is beyond repair but still looks good? I saw on this forum someone who build a PC into the case of a vintage amplifier. Like to give that a try myself.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On a different note, does anyone have an old amp/tuner that is beyond repair but still looks good? I saw on this forum someone who build a PC into the case of a vintage amplifier. Like to give that a try myself.

I have some surround sound ones that are uneconomical to repair. Really vintage stuff is usually worth repairing.

[Spork67]

Is it worth re-doing the thermal paste between hot components and their heat sinks on older gear?

[Primare Knob]

My view on this is.

 

If your not planning on learning some basic electronics.

Spending a few years minimum to learn what isn't taught in any school/college/training center.

 

Then you will be 100% at the mercy of what you buy, and where you take it to be worked on.

As such, you will have to be prepared for the occasional buttsex you will get from those you take it to that say it is or isnt repairable and how much they want to either tell you this or actually do the repair.

 

Best part with older gear isn't always the repairing of the fault.

It's the correction and correct repair of what the previous ham fisted hole digger has done to the thing with his to hot or to cold brazing iron.

 

Like all second hand things.

The winner is the person that knows when to walk away......

That would be the question. But without the knowledge it basically means you have to walk away from anything old or vintage. I do put a bit of trust in the SNA second hand market or an existing store who is selling on behalf off.

[Happy]

Buying vintage in Australia makes no commercial sense unless:

 

- you've got a score.

- you know how to fix them yourself.

[Primare Knob]

I have some surround sound ones that are uneconomical to repair. Really vintage stuff is usually worth repairing.

That wouldn't fit my picture. Would be willing to spend up to $150 for a nice example. There are some things on ebay that could fit the bill.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Is it worth re-doing the thermal paste between hot components and their heat sinks on older gear?

Sometimes. It is important to realise what thermal paste is and how it works:

Thermal paste consists of a very fine powder, suspended in a liquid (usually a synthetic oil). When applied, the paste spreads out and fills up small gaps between the surfaces of the heat sink and the device/s. Over time, the oil can evaporate (though I seen some which is still gluggy after 40 odd years). This is usually of no consequence, UNLESS the device/s are disturbed. If the device/s are removed, then the old paste must be removed and replaced. For my part, if I am doing a big refurb, I usually remount and replace the thermal paste as a matter of course. But that's mainly because I reckon I do a better job than the manufacturer did. But I'm a bit arrogant like that.