Mivera Audio Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I suppose it could also be an artifact that occurs in HQP when the convolution engine is processing the Acourate generated files. Best tool to figure this out is a picoscope: https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4262/picoscope-4262-overview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusk Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 On 1/8/2017 at 1:18 AM, Keith_W said: As is typical after a GTG, I start thinking about what I just heard when driving home. I turned on the system the moment I got home. Well, it turns out that my system has something that his doesn't - a veil of digital hash. I suppose I managed to ignore it before, but now that I listen more closely there seems to be a high pitched ringing which is more obvious with some tracks, especially those that feature massed choruses. Not sure if your hearing the same issue i found with using Nevile Theile 2nd order with steep slopes. Gave what you describe a veil over the speaker like something not right. I changed to Linkwitz Riley 4th order and was gone. Maybe it is ringing from the crossover type. Refer fig 16 vs fig 18. http://www.acourate.com/freedownload/XOWhitePaper.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted January 8, 2017 Administrator Share Posted January 8, 2017 15 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: BTW I'm not sure if my website link will be in my signature. I just got a warning for my website link that's been in my signature for 10 months. I went to my profile and can't see where to edit it. So if I'm banned after this post it's because I can't find where to edit it. Edit: Never mind. I can see it's been replaced with "commercial advertising removed" Don't make out like you've been hard done by. The rules are the rules, and they've been there forever (and the same ones you agreed to when you signed up). It's the second time we've had to raise it with you and no one else seems to have trouble following them. If you'd like to discuss it further, please contact me directly. Apologies for the intrusion in your thread Keith. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) lusk thanks for that. I will go try LR4 instead of NT2. That article you linked to shows a 40th order Bessel filter (fig. 18). Have you tried this? It takes hours to make these crossovers, I have to admit that I get a little lazy. BTW, I didn't know that you used Acourate to make your crossover? I must have missed your system thread somewhere. And I thought I was the only one in Vic and I was starting to feel a bit lonely! Edited January 8, 2017 by Keith_W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mondie Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi Keith, I noticed in your PBD for sale thread that you explained that your player has an upgraded metal transport drawer gear, how did you obtain the part and have the upgrade performed? I think mine may be starting to suffer from a failing plastic gear. Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Don't make out like you've been hard done by. The rules are the rules, and they've been there forever (and the same ones you agreed to when you signed up). It's the second time we've had to raise it with you and no one else seems to have trouble following them. If you'd like to discuss it further, please contact me directly. Apologies for the intrusion in your thread Keith. Sorry I setup my signature 10 months ago when I signed up here. I use Tapatalk and it doesn't even show it. I had to log into the forum in my browser to see what you were even talking about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusk Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 46 minutes ago, Keith_W said: lusk thanks for that. I will go try LR4 instead of NT2. That article you linked to shows a 40th order Bessel filter (fig. 18). Have you tried this? It takes hours to make these crossovers, I have to admit that I get a little lazy. BTW, I didn't know that you used Acourate to make your crossover? I must have missed your system thread somewhere. And I thought I was the only one in Vic and I was starting to feel a bit lonely! Yes use Acourate but only up to time aligning drivers and driver linerisation. My setup is i7-6700 (jRiver) with RME HDSPe AES into RME ADI-8 QS into Elektra 7ch into DIY 3 way. http://imgur.com/JL1BJt3 Haven't tried 40th order Bessel, l went over that document again after l had changed to LR4 and noticed maybe issue with using the NT2 was from ringing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Simon, I complained to Warwick about a whirring and thunk sound when the transport opened and closed. He got in touch with Andreas Koch who told him that it was a known issue affecting this transport. Since the transport is no longer in production, Andreas had a batch of replica gears made. Andreas sent the part to Warwick, who installed it for me. From memory, the part was either free or very cheap and all I paid for was labour. There is a video on my FS thread, if your MPS-5 sounds like that, then you need to get in touch with your local dealer. I would suggest you ask Warwick to put you in touch with a dealer in Scotland. (edit) lusk I see that you just posted. I also have an RME HDSPe AES which is not being used at the moment. When I bought it, I thought I would be driving 4 pairs of DAC's via AES/EBU. It would be interesting to listen to your setup. Edited January 8, 2017 by Keith_W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mondie Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Thanks for the advice Keith, I will get on to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 1 hour ago, lusk said: Not sure if your hearing the same issue i found with using Nevile Theile 2nd order with steep slopes. Gave what you describe a veil over the speaker like something not right. I changed to Linkwitz Riley 4th order and was gone. Maybe it is ringing from the crossover type. Refer fig 16 vs fig 18. http://www.acourate.com/freedownload/XOWhitePaper.pdf Yes, this can be the issue if the drivers are not aligned (at every point in space), which is the case for most people. If you measure the step response of the all the drivers ... and see that they line up perfectly (which they will if you calculated the filters at that microphone position) ..... when you move the microphone/listener .... do they still line up? If the answer is no, then this isn't something which can be "fixed" with a filter. It's an acoustic issue, the coverage pattern of the drivers aren't equal (ie. a speaker design issue). Moving to a lower order filter, can mean that even though the impulse (or step) responses still don't line up..... the magnitude of the error is both lower, and more consistent over different listening/measuring positions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 17 hours ago, Mivera Audio said: Best tool to figure this out is a picoscope: https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4262/picoscope-4262-overview If the filters were calculated without mistake, then the 'ringing' will cancel in the summed signal. .... but what comes out of the speaker is more complex (as it changes for each point in space), and you can't see that with a scope. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Well, tonight I have: 1. Excluded the tweeter amplifier as the cause for the ringing. I get the same ringing if I use the SGR. 2. Excluded the Neville Thiele 2nd order crossover as the cause for the ringing. It sounds the same with Linkwitz-Riley 4th order. 3. Excluded pre-ringing as the cause for the ringing. I adjusted excess phase from 6/6/6/6 to 1/2/1/2 and applied pre-ringing compensation, and it sounds the same. I am at my wits end now. I think it's time to ask Uli for help. Edited January 9, 2017 by Keith_W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I guess that you could confirm it's the filters / convolution via seeing if the same behaviour occurs when using simple JRiver PEQ for x/o duties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 I'm not sure how to do that, so i'll have to look it up. But yes, something to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 12 hours ago, Keith_W said: Well, tonight I have: 1. Excluded the tweeter amplifier as the cause for the ringing. I get the same ringing if I use the SGR. 2. Excluded the Neville Thiele 2nd order crossover as the cause for the ringing. It sounds the same with Linkwitz-Riley 4th order. 3. Excluded pre-ringing as the cause for the ringing. I adjusted excess phase from 6/6/6/6 to 1/2/1/2 and applied pre-ringing compensation, and it sounds the same. I am at my wits end now. I think it's time to ask Uli for help. Room acoustics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Definitely not room acoustics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Keith_W said: Definitely not room acoustics. Why not? Any chance you can hear these other speakers in your room? Obviously easier said than done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Because I have had my speakers in my room for a very long time, and I have not heard this problem before. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Keith_W said: Because I have had my speakers in my room for a very long time, and I have not heard this problem before. Did you try taking HQP out of the picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 8 hours ago, Keith_W said: I'm not sure how to do that, so i'll have to look it up. But yes, something to try. Famous last words but it's not that difficult. You go to Tools / Options / Audio / DSP & Output Settings. Output Format should be set at 2 channels in a 7.1 container. And Parametric Equaliser option has ability to create simple low / high pass filters. Another option is that you could use the Convolution with the same filters that are used in HQ Player. Hope that that helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Keith_W said: Because I have had my speakers in my room for a very long time, and I have not heard this problem before. But you only noticed this was an issue until hearing someone else's system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunno77 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 http://www.exasound.com/e38/e38DACOverview.aspxCould this be an option Keith? Unfortunately only dsd 256 at the moment but maybe 512 with a later update? Uses the newer 9028pro and a lpsu option at a reasonable price. I know there was discussion here recently with another about developing a multichannel dac. Microrendu, LH Labs Pulse Infinity, McIntosh MA2275, Paradigm 30th Anniversary Tributes, SVS SB13 ULTRA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 I did look at that E38, but it does not add anything much compared to the NADAC. It has one Sabre ESS9038 Pro driving 8 channels, as opposed to the NADAC which has two (8 channel) 9008S driving 8 channels. Also, my system is all XLR. It is possible to order the Exa E38 with XLR connectors, but they only come with mini-XLR outputs due to the limited chassis space. This would mean replacing all my XLR cables with mini-XLR which is (1) difficult because mini-XLR is not readily available, (2) expensive, and (3) there is no secondhand market for mini-XLR cables. Furthermore, the voltage output of the Exa E38 is less than the NADAC, which is a problem for me because the NADAC already does not offer sufficient voltage output. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twist222 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 8 January 2017 at 0:18 AM, Keith_W said: Well, it turns out that my system has something that his doesn't - a veil of digital hash. I suppose I managed to ignore it before, but now that I listen more closely there seems to be a high pitched ringing which is more obvious with some tracks, especially those that feature massed choruses. Keith, Have you had any success with eliminating or reducing the ringing ? Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 I haven't really been trying. I've had to return the Accuphase pre/power amp, so i'm back to the SGR power amp. The problem now is that I have no way to match the gains of all the different amps apart from cutting down the volume of the other amps to match the lower sensitivity of the SGR/bass combination. I will attempt it again when I get around to buying a new SS amp for the bass cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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