robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 My listening space is relatively small and it isn't practical to move furniture around and it is an awkward space with one corner on the left which is partly enclosed by the side of a cabinet. The right side of the room opens into a void with a high ceiling so I get no reflection from that side. The left side has sliding glass doors and curtains so it sounds different with the curtains closed. I have found that my KEF LS50's respond dramatically to positioning and my REL T-Zero sub crossover frequency and level are very difficult to optimise because the LS50's are so responsive that introduction of extra bass can have a dampening effect on their sound. I was unable to get the balance right after messing around for months trying to balance my sub and position the LS50's optimally. I knew there were an enormous amount of REW users but I didn't think it applied to me because I couldn't make physical change to my room. WRONG! I installed REW on my Mac and used the inbuilt mike but the readings weren't very informative. I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a calibrated mike but as luck would have it, Loud Speaker Kits had Dayton Audio iMM-6 mikes for around $25 so I splurged. After a some experimenting and variable results I got the hang of it. I took readings without the sub and was able to optimise the LS50's bass response by positioning alone. I couldn't get rid of a dip around 400 hZ but I don't notice any deficiencies. This gave my my benchmark for the main speakers. Optimising the sub suddenly became simple because I was able to adjust the crossover frequency to eliminate peaks then adjust the level to give a nice smooth balance between the LS50's and Sub which now pressurises my room nicely despite the unconventional shape of my room. Now I have an amazing sounding system with gutsy, clean musical bass that has become an extension of the LS50's plus I don't have to get up all the time to fiddle with my sub any more. Everybody NEEDS to make REW part of their system even if they can't modify their listening space. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 ummm....so how do you run this? do you also run some miniDSP XO or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I think he said he moved the speakers around. Sub has separate adjustments for level and crossover Fr. So no need for DSP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I think he said he moved the speakers around. Sub has separate adjustments for level and crossover Fr. So no need for DSP. that's as long as the source is from a computer right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 My sources are mainly Auralic Mini for Spotifyand digital files, LP's and the odd CD. The sub runs at speaker level and is designed to augment bass not replace it. Two subs would probably be better but I wouldn't be able to corner load the second one because I don't have a right hand corner to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Everybody NEEDS to make REW part of their system even if they can't modify their listening space. The reality is that it is exceptionally difficult to EQ bass "by ear" due to the way we hear bass frequencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 My sources are mainly Auralic Mini for Spotifyand digital files, LP's and the odd CD. The sub runs at speaker level and is designed to augment bass not replace it. Two subs would probably be better but I wouldn't be able to corner load the second one because I don't have a right hand corner to use. so how do you apply REW to your LP playback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 The reality is that it is exceptionally difficult to EQ bass "by ear" due to the way we hear bass frequencies. Yes, I agree. The instructions in the REL manual suggest it is quite simple using a familiar track with solid bass. It sort of works but I now understand that the bass was way off the mark and takes a lot of tweaking to get right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) so how do you apply REW to your LP playback? Sorry, I don't understand. I only used it to set up my speakers to get a reasonably smooth curve in the room I have, using the built in audio sweep. I'm making readings with sub and main combined until I get the balance sounding good. It's not needed after that. Edited June 23, 2016 by robmid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Ohhhh....now I get it. So you took a measurement so that you can adjust the setting in your REL more precisely? As opposed to applying the REW value to some pre-amp or like devices so that adjustment gets done automatically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 That's what I said. Annnd, he moved the LS50 speakers around until he got a smoother measured result. Therefore the changes apply to all sources. Therefore anyone can benefit from making measurements -- the title of this thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 yeah that just didn't hit me initially. guess im too used to rely on DSP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Spyne~ Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Ohhhh....now I get it. So you took a measurement so that you can adjust the setting in your REL more precisely? As opposed to applying the REW value to some pre-amp or like devices so that adjustment gets done automatically? REW is a measuring tool, it does not apply EQ/corrections to a system, it only shows you various acoustic analyses so that you can either move speakers, install room treatments (acoustic tiles, dispersion panels, etc) or apply some form of external DSP via a separate device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 REW is a measuring tool, it does not apply EQ/corrections to a system, it only shows you various acoustic analyses so that you can either move speakers, install room treatments (acoustic tiles, dispersion panels, etc) or apply some form of external DSP via a separate device. It does actually if you run a miniDSP XO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Ohhhh....now I get it. So you took a measurement so that you can adjust the setting in your REL more precisely? As opposed to applying the REW value to some pre-amp or like devices so that adjustment gets done automatically? Yes. I use a DIY preamp that is virtually an attenuator with wires, so the output to the amp is as pure as the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) @@robmid How did you use the iMM-6 with REW? Does it connect to a PC, it looks like only phones? Ahh just noticed a MAC, that may be it. Edited June 23, 2016 by SteveC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 @@robmid How did you use the iMM-6 with REW? Does it connect to a PC, it looks like only phones? Ahh just noticed a MAC, that may be it. I just plug it into the mike port and have an extension from the phones output into the preamp via rca's. I did try it wirelessly with Airplay and it worked for a while but direct connect is more repeatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieface Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Would you share any of your before and after graphs robmid? I enjoy stuffing around with REW too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 REW is a useful stepping stone. Next thing you need to do is try something like Acourate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 yeah that just didn't hit me initially. guess im too used to rely on DSP. At the risk of over generalising ..... When the problem is 3-dimensional .... ie. speaker placement bad, sound bouncing off the walls, listening position is wrong, etc. etc ..... then a 2-dimensional solution like DSP, can often be a bad (or very limited) tool. This is why there are all the threads banging on about how the speaker radiates sound in 3-dimensions ..... because if the radiation has a problem, then it cannot be fixed very well by any type of change to the input signal ..... and it is better to use a 3-dimensional solution (like re-design the speaker coverage pattern .... move the speaker .... move the listener .... change the walls .... etc.) Luckily, this speaker has a reasonably nice 3-dimensional radiation... Pic here: http://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity/KEF%20LS50/images/Plots/Horizontal/KEF%20LS50%20H%20Freq%20Resp%20Plot%20Q1.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 At the risk of over generalising ..... When the problem is 3-dimensional .... ie. speaker placement bad, sound bouncing off the walls, listening position is wrong, etc. etc ..... then a 2-dimensional solution like DSP, can often be a bad (or very limited) tool. This is why there are all the threads banging on about how the speaker radiates sound in 3-dimensions ..... because if the radiation has a problem, then it cannot be fixed very well by any type of change to the input signal ..... and it is better to use a 3-dimensional solution (like re-design the speaker coverage pattern .... move the speaker .... move the listener .... change the walls .... etc.) Luckily, this speaker has a reasonably nice 3-dimensional radiation... Pic here: http://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity/KEF%20LS50/images/Plots/Horizontal/KEF%20LS50%20H%20Freq%20Resp%20Plot%20Q1.png yup. so you wanna do placement right first. room treatment is a must. and then the DSP does the icing on the cake. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Would you share any of your before and after graphs robmid? I enjoy stuffing around with REW too This graph isn't the final one where I reduced the level a little but does show Sub On (red) and Sub off (green) Smoothing 1/12. The sub blends in seamlessly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Spyne~ Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 It does actually if you run a miniDSP XO. Then that would be the miniDSP applying the processing, not REW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Then that would be the miniDSP applying the processing, not REW. strictly speaking yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 REW is a useful stepping stone. Next thing you need to do is try something like Acourate Making a correction to the input signal (rather than just moving the speaker / listener around) is a rather large step. ... and something like Acourate is about the biggest of them all ...... we just have to look at the table at the bottom of this page called "functions" to give most people a headache. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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