Roon Discussion Thread

[kdoot]

44 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Assuming it's the same content ... and it plays OK in Tidal, but is more likely to drop out through roon .... then this would point to not the internet connection.

The Tidal app buffers sensibly. I could play Tidal MQA using the Tidal app, or through Audirvana (streaming from Tidal) no problem. I had just under 5Mbps DSL line speed. 

 

Roon, though, is stupid about streaming. It tries to pull two streams or two sections of the stream at once, and if you have marginal bandwidth as I did, and blybo is in a similar position, then Roon will fail where other apps succeed. I've done the work of figuring this out using tcpdump and nettop and other tools because it was happening to me. 

 

I'm not sure why you want to disagree with this. Roon doesn't behave the way the other apps do, even streaming from the exact same source servers. It seems to either buffer everything twice or try to buffer the next segment while the current one is still being downloaded. So it needs twice as much bandwidth as it ought to and when you don't have much headroom it's easy to create congestion that causes skips and sputters. 

[blybo]

16 hours ago, kdoot said:

More like 2.2Mbps, and that's just the payload. There's the overheads required for TCP/IP and for PPPoE that soak up some extra percentage of the "6-8Mbps" baud rate reported by the DSL modem. Then double it, because of Roon's silly behaviour... and then there's not really a lot of margin left, even accounting for FLAC compression. Another device on the network checking email, browsing facebook, downloading an update would for short periods consume between a third and "most of" the shared bandwidth, and if that persists for not very long then dropouts will occur.

From my own identical experience at home and not a small number of years professionally analysing problems like this on a very large scale, I'm very confident in saying that not having enough ADSL bandwidth to support Roon's use of Tidal is the #1 issue for blybo. 

Did a speed test this morning= 4.42Mbps. Last night between 5-8pm when I suspect bandwidth would be most accessed, I was able to play Tidal MQA files directly via my Moon MiND2 module, with just the occasional 1 or 2 second dropout over an entire album. Via Roon, forget it. I'm pretty sure I've got some spare "ethernet over power" adapters lying around somewhere. I'll try those to acheive a wired connection to my Roon core on my iMac which is currently on a 5g Wifi network, and see if that helps.

 

We do have a fair few wifi connected devices in the home, 2x phones, 3x tablets, 1x iMac, 1x Apple TV, 2x wifi enabled exercise equipment, 8x WiFi "smart" light globes and a Split A/C system. HiFi and HT system are both hardwired to the network

[Mr_Gimlet]

Tidal through Roon is my canary in the coal mine for poor internet. It is the first thing to stutter when there are congestion issues locally.

[davewantsmoore]

12 hours ago, kdoot said:

I'm not sure why you want to disagree with this.

<shrug> because (2.3 x 2 * 0.7) / 0.8 = 4.025 .... If he has between 6 and 8mbps, then it will work.

 

I chose 30% as the size reduction for FLAC compression, and network protocols taking 20% overhead.... these are obviously ridiculously conservative numbers.   

 

1 hour ago, blybo said:

Did a speed test this morning= 4.42Mbps

Your problem with streaming is that your internet connection is too slow.   

1 hour ago, blybo said:

I'm pretty sure I've got some spare "ethernet over power" adapters lying around somewhere. I'll try those to acheive a wired connection to my Roon core on my iMac which is currently on a 5g Wifi network, and see if that helps.

Unless your wifi is absolutely limping along and "barely working" ... the I wouldn't bother unfortunately.

[Bunno77]

15 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

 

Your problem with streaming is that your internet connection is too slow.   

.

Hoping you may be able to help me then.

 

Here is my speed test and this is a little bit lower than usual.

 

I have used Roon in 3 different homes including in Thailand where the internet is faster, more reliable and far cheaper than here and still get issues with streaming Tidal through Roon

 

I mentioned above though I can currently have 3 separate Tidal streams running at once without any issue but one via Roon will quite often play up and I don't believe my PC is the issue

 

 

12 hours ago, kdoot said:

The Tidal app buffers sensibly. I could play Tidal MQA using the Tidal app, or through Audirvana (streaming from Tidal) no problem. I had just under 5Mbps DSL line speed. 

 

Roon, though, is stupid about streaming. It tries to pull two streams or two sections of the stream at once, and if you have marginal bandwidth as I did, and blybo is in a similar position, then Roon will fail where other apps succeed. I've done the work of figuring this out using tcpdump and nettop and other tools because it was happening to me. 

 

I'm not sure why you want to disagree with this. Roon doesn't behave the way the other apps do, even streaming from the exact same source servers. It seems to either buffer everything twice or try to buffer the next segment while the current one is still being downloaded. So it needs twice as much bandwidth as it ought to and when you don't have much headroom it's easy to create congestion that causes skips and sputters. 

This makes sense but still think surely my current net should be fast enough

[rand129678]

2 hours ago, blybo said:

my Roon core on my iMac which is currently on a 5g Wifi network

It may not be your internet at all but may be your WiFi network. 

 

Are you using a good wireless 'mesh' network, maybe a tri-band one where the dedicated band handles only backhaul traffic?

 

I know you mentioned another app is fine, where Roon struggles but see this post which may explain this (it's to do with how Roon works and the number of hops on a WiFi network):

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/kef-ls50-wireless-unstable-connection/52366/57

 

The way to work out if it's your WiFi network is to temporarily hardwire your iMac Roon Core to your router and connect your DAC/system directly to the iMac temporarily (for testing purposes). If you have no issues with that direct connection, it rules out internet connectivity and points the finger to your wireless network. 

 

Just another thing to consider maybe. Roon Core on a wireless network can work but the way it works can really push the network, depending on the layout and the number of wireless 'hops' etc.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Music2496

[Bunno77]

You're a guru Seano

[davewantsmoore]

12 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

Hoping you may be able to help me then.

Based on what you've described, it's definitely a roon issue.     I assume "play up" means stuttering, but the playback continues OK.   Anyways, one to log with roon support.   Explain that you can stream the same content through tidal fine .... and explain the exact symptoms in roon.      I'd expect good support, given the price of entry   

 

13 minutes ago, Music2496 said:

It may not be your internet at all but may be your WiFi network. 

It could be.... but it seem unlikely that a 5ghz wifi network can't sustain 4mbps, unless it is really quite sick.... and you'd be noticing more issues than just audio playback

[rand129678]

20 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

It could be.... but it seem unlikely that a 5ghz wifi network can't sustain 4mbps, unless it is really quite sick.... and you'd be noticing more issues than just audio playback

 

Agreed but check the link above. You might need 3 x the bandwidth (depending on number of hops). Then it may come down to the 5GHz coverage itself, inside the home etc etc. We assume the coverage might be perfect between each hop but maybe isn't?

 

First thing Roon Support may ask to do (I would guess) is eliminate internet - temporarily hardwire Roon Core to the router and connect DAC/system direct to the iMac Roon Core. So I would just go ahead and do this while contacting Roon Support anyway, even if it means temporarily re-shuffling some gear, just for testing purposes (which can be annoying, I know).

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Music2496

[Bunno77]

Unfortunately not Dave. it will usually play for about 20 seconds then skip to the next track after a decent pause. It also comes up with an error when it skips tracks but I don't remember exactly what it says.

 

Yep you're right and probably one I should have raised with Roon a long time ago but I think that Sean might be right with the local network and having it all hardwired would be a good test. Just odd that it will be fine for an hour or 2 and then start with the issue

[blybo]

43 minutes ago, Music2496 said:

It may not be your internet at all but may be your WiFi network. 

 

Are you using a good wireless 'mesh' network, maybe a tri-band one where the dedicated band handles only backhaul traffic?

 

I know you mentioned another app is fine, where Roon struggles but see this post which may explain this (it's to do with how Roon works and the number of hops on a WiFi network):

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/kef-ls50-wireless-unstable-connection/52366/57

 

The way to work out if it's your WiFi network is to temporarily hardwire your iMac Roon Core to your router and connect your DAC/system directly to the iMac temporarily (for testing purposes). If you have no issues with that direct connection, it rules out internet connectivity and points the finger to your wireless network. 

 

Just another thing to consider maybe. Roon Core on a wireless network can work but the way it works can really push the network, depending on the layout and the number of wireless 'hops' etc.

This will not go down well as my wife will see $ signs when I start fault finding.

 

I had gone to some lengths to "isolate" my wifi from ethernet connected devices for sound quality, until we converted the study my modem/router is in to be a gym. I bought a pretty expensive Netgear R8000 triband wifi router, placed it centrally in the home to give coverage eveywhere, and then disabled wifi on my main Netgear modem/router which is about 4 years old. I have ethernet to my hifi and HT systems and to the wifi router only. Now the main computer is upstairs in the new study (spare bedroom) with no ethernet access except running a really long and unsightly ethernet cable to it, or using ethernet over power via adapters.

 

I don't think I've ever had to reboot the wifi router, but the modem get a power cycle every couple of months. Generally things are very stable until trying to use Roon over wifi. Pretty sure I can see where this heading... Hopefully ethernet over power will work or enabling some manual settings in the R8000 to give the iMac some sort of priority. Networking has never been a strong point and 1 reason I prefer Macs.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by blybo

[rand129678]

10 minutes ago, blybo said:

I bought a pretty expensive Netgear R8000 triband wifi router, placed it centrally in the home to give coverage eveywhere, and then disabled wifi on my main Netgear modem/router which is about 4 years old. I have ethernet to my hifi and HT systems and to the wifi router only. Now the main computer is upstairs in the new study (spare bedroom) with no ethernet access except running a really long and unsightly ethernet cable to it, or using ethernet over power via adapters.

Thanks for sharing the networking gear layout. Before buying anything, I would move the iMac Roon Core downstairs (just for testing) and direct connect to the modem/router... leave that for the weekend/week and see/hear how you go.

 

If you have no issues with that, then you rule out internet connectivity. That's a simple test Roon Support would probably ask you to do as well, if you reported to them.

 

That test costs nothing, apart from the temporary inconvenience but might give you a lot of information. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Music2496

[davewantsmoore]

52 minutes ago, Music2496 said:

We assume the coverage might be perfect

Well, we assume the coverage can sustain ~4mbps in both directions for multiple devices.    It would be a sick and sorry wifi network which couldn't .... but it's possible.   

[davewantsmoore]

53 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

Unfortunately not Dave. it will usually play for about 20 seconds then skip to the next track after a decent pause. It also comes up with an error when it skips tracks but I don't remember exactly what it says.

Cool, so it sounds like it's not the "low bandwidth" problem .... the error message will surely help the roon people diagnose a potential cause, and then suggest troubleshooting steps.

 

53 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

Just odd that it will be fine for an hour or 2 and then start with the issue

<shrug> lots of problems are like that.

[davewantsmoore]

58 minutes ago, Music2496 said:

First thing Roon Support may ask to do (I would guess) is eliminate internet

That really depends on what the error message says/means.   So far there is no evidence that there is a network problem of any sort, internet, or local....   but giving it a go can't hurt (beware of false positives though) 

 

50 minutes ago, blybo said:

iMac

Option-click on the Wifi icon in the menu bar...  What does it say for Tx rate?

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

42 minutes ago, Music2496 said:

If you have no issues with that, then you rule out internet connectivity.

We've already established that his internet connection IS likely to be a problem  (as it is only 4mbps .... originally reported as 6-8 mbps, which would be just enough)

 

It would be extremely unlikely for the wifi to be the issue .... but you don't have to move the computer to check that.   You just have to quantify the speed of the wifi.

 

[blybo]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

We've already established that his internet connection IS likely to be a problem  (as it is only 4mbps .... originally reported as 6-8 mbps, which would be just enough)

 

It would be extremely unlikely for the wifi to be the issue .... but you don't have to move the computer to check that.   You just have to quantify the speed of the wifi.

 

4.5mbps as seen this morning, but that is below average. I don't religiously do speed tests because the network is generally trouble free, but when I test I usually see between 6 and 8 Mbps results.

 

I'll move the computer with Roon core attached on the weekend and see what happens. In the mean time I'll also research if my R8000 wifi modem can give the iMac some sort of beefed up service or priority. Although it sounds like it does much of this automatically by the sounds of this blurb

Quote

wireless speed of up to 3.2Gbps, 3 WiFi bands, Smart Connect intelligence, and Dynamic QoS— guarantees every device is assigned the fastest WiFi connection possible and optimized for maximum speed.

http://www.netgear.com.au/home/products/networking/wifi-routers/r8000.aspx

Edited November 14, 2018 by blybo

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, blybo said:

I'll move the computer with Roon core attached on the weekend and see what happens. In the mean time I'll also research if my R8000 wifi modem can give the iMac some sort of beefed up service or priority.

I'd strongly recommend you do the 'test' I suggested first on the iMac.... but sure, moving it can't hurt.

 

There's no reason to suspect any wifi would be the culprit here ..... but your wifi.     It's more than adequate.

[dbau]

Mac user here. After testing Roon, JRiver and Audirvana I decided to settle on Roon.

Managed to get a bonus 3 months on Roon + a Tidal HiFi 3 month voucher thrown in for the price of a standard yearly subscription after liaising with Roon's Sales team. Happy days. 

[Bunno77]

On 14/11/2018 at 10:44 AM, Music2496 said:

It may not be your internet at all but may be your WiFi network. 

 

Are you using a good wireless 'mesh' network, maybe a tri-band one where the dedicated band handles only backhaul traffic?

 

I know you mentioned another app is fine, where Roon struggles but see this post which may explain this (it's to do with how Roon works and the number of hops on a WiFi network):

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/kef-ls50-wireless-unstable-connection/52366/57

 

The way to work out if it's your WiFi network is to temporarily hardwire your iMac Roon Core to your router and connect your DAC/system directly to the iMac temporarily (for testing purposes). If you have no issues with that direct connection, it rules out internet connectivity and points the finger to your wireless network. 

 

Just another thing to consider maybe. Roon Core on a wireless network can work but the way it works can really push the network, depending on the layout and the number of wireless 'hops' etc.

You really are a guru Sean

 

Have been playing while core is hard-wired to router and no dropouts as yet even with an extender to uR

 

Thank you

[rand129678]

19 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

You really are a guru Sean

 

Have been playing while core is hard-wired to router and no dropouts as yet even with an extender to uR

 

Thank you

 

Great to hear that mate! That would be the first thing Roon Support would ask you to try anyway, so thought I'd mention it here. I know, because I've literally experienced every single networking problem possible with Roon. So I know their 'recommended practice' pretty well now.

 

Especially with the Roon Core - that really needs to be hard wired to the router. The endpoints are less of an issue over wireless.

 

But if your Roon Core is on WiFi, then the number of wireless 'hops' (between core and endpoints) can become an issue, like that bloke in the link I posted earlier described pretty well.

 

Trouble free streaming is always nice. Happy listening mate!

Edited November 20, 2018 by Music2496

[Bunno77]

It makes sense but not something I would have thought of but I'm only a sparky and not an IT guru. 

 

Hopefully it continues to work perfectly and was my issue. 

 

Have seen a few of your posts lately on CA and you're getting very advanced! 

[rand129678]

4 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

Hopefully it continues to work perfectly and was my issue. 

Yeh, so many times I’ve thought I cracked something, then 3 days later it pops up again.

 

I really hope your thing is solved though. Report back in a weeks time to let us know how it’s going, if you can. Might help others in future too.

 

7 minutes ago, Bunno77 said:

Have seen a few of your posts lately on CA and you're getting very advanced! 

Ha, no definitely not advanced, just enjoy reading & learning over in the hornets nest over there. 

[Bunno77]

Intermittent faults are the worst. I have so many issues at the mo i have stopped listening lately. My room is really pissing me off in new house but playing with DSP is helping a lot when all the craziest speaker placements aren't. Def will update if hard-wired has solved it but I follow the wisdom of guru Sean

 

Plenty to learn in many areas. I have been extremely grateful of what I have learnt

[Juicester]

This thread seems to be giving me comfort that I installed an Orbi mesh network. My roon end point will go via ethernet into the back of one of the satellite units, so I assume from a wifi perspective it will be quite solid. Question will be the crappy 8mbs ADSL2+ connection I have.

 

Looking forward to getting into Roon!