-
Posts
1,025 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
4
Content Type
Profiles
Store
Forums
Gallery
Videos Directory
Posts posted by steve u
-
-
-
Thanks @Marc
More results to follow.
- 1
-
Ok I have made a couple of changes to the system overnight and have fine tuned the actual cable change over process with the assistant.
I am going to focus once more upon the Odin and a standard cable, rather than the lorad.
I also have been loaned some other cables that will add to the interest level, perhaps???
If we can heed Marc's suggestion and stick to sharing our own opinions on this thread, rather than commenting on issues unrelated, there may be a chance of one of these threads not being closed.
Thanks everyone for your input and co-operation.
- 15
-
17 hours ago, Paul Spencer said:
It's nice to see someone putting their beliefs on the line!
It is hard work - that's why it's not often done. It's not exactly the most fun you can have in audio!
I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. Can I suggest an alternative to make it easier?
First suggestion: pick a single track that you feel is most likely to show a difference. Ideally not your favourite track, because you're going to ruin it! Ideally just 30 seconds - 1 minute. The point is to listen in a very disciplined and deliberate way. It's about listening to observe not listening to enjoy. This will be against the grain for most but it's the only way you will get through a well designed objective test and demonstrate you can hear a difference.
Next suggestion: run it as an ABX test. It goes like this:1. Cable A - your wife reveals which cable is being used, either your chosen fancy pants cable or the bog standard cheap as chips IEC. 30 sec - 1 minute.
2. Cable B with the same sample.
In 2 minutes you've formed your opinion about what you think you can hear with that sample. If you're not confident at this point, pick another sample.
3. Cable X - now you have no idea which one is in play. All you have to do is say "I think that's the cheapie." In just 3 minutes you have a result. You've given yourself the best chance at hearing a difference.
Now repeat at least 10 times. Now you have a score out of 10. Now you're ready to destroy another piece of music that you will never want to hear again. Choose wisely!
Thanks Paul, I will give this a go as part of the trial.
- 1
-
27 minutes ago, guru said:
I'm slightly perplexed by the judging determinations used in the sense that some of the descriptors would actually mark higher on a lesser cable. For example, unless you have a different interpretation of what a change would bring, both distortion and glare are negatives and masking both aspects to some degree would generate a higher score normally and would tend to be more the territory of a more basic cable.
For me personally, the greatest benefits of introducing higher quality power cables into a good quality, well balanced audio system has been in the specific areas of reducing noise floor levels, greater macro and micro dynamics, instrument and vocal tone and a greater sense of effortless engagement to the recording.
Whilst I think the effort of trying to listen like a machine and evaluate is a valiant one for you and your assistant, I think ultimately, it will be normal positions resumed. As someone who has participated in an abx audio test in the past, I admire your application. Good luck.
Thanks Guru, I agree with what you are saying. And your philosophy has been what has driven me towards a lot of tweaking and fine tuning my system.
I have read so many posts about I added "x" and the soundstage went outside the speakers, before they disappeared. Then this part "y" gave me so much extra detail and tightened the bass and so on. I have done these things, wrote these things, heard these things, that I decided to just stop and think if all the improvements I have done have made the sound stage so real and so big, my neighbour should be walking through my sound stage and just feeling blessed.
So doing a blind test is very confronting for me and the only volunteers I have had to come and participate under the same rules that i set myself are cable "non-believers." There seems to be a pretty long line up of people who want to say I told you so.
But I am a believer, but I thought I would just give it a go.
I am going to fine tune a few things to hopefully help make any changes more evident to me.
And I don't mean better back lighting of the rack.
- 4
-
1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:
@steve u Great work, so far. However, some suggestions:
1) Use a cheap, generic cable, as per my original suggestion, as your control.
2) You need to do A LOT more testing, for the result to be statistically significant.
3) The fact that you mis-identified one cable should tell you a great deal. That said, you need to do many more tests.
4) Keep it simple. Two cables. One cheap, one expensive. And, by cheap, I mean 5 Bucks.
hmmm, I'm not having any fun yet.
But I do intend to do a bit more testing.
Blind tasting wine is a lot more fun that testing cables.
- 7
-
Well, the results. And let me say, I am trying as hard as I can to be at least objective, if not scientific. And I found it bloody hard work.
But first, I learnt a bit from this first foray of only 2 cables and have a question about the process and it has to do with settling time of the cable. The assistant chose to leave the cable in place for one change, but removed it from the CD player and then put it back in. So it was the same cable, but pulled out and pushed back in.
Which is a hint for the results.
Change 1 was the lorad cable and probably should be noted had the longest time in the setup.
Change 2 was the lorad, it was pulled out and put back in again.
Change 3 was the Odin.
I actually wrote more notes about Change 2, than the other 2. I said it seemed a little coagulated or congested and not as resolved as Change 1, even though it was the same cable. And Change 3 with the Odin, I didn't like initially but after 30 minutes, was noting the speed and attack and that it seemed as though the volume had actually increased. But I scored it lower than Change 1, which was the most settled of all the cables.
I am going to hone the testing procedure a bit and try some other cables.
So far I have found out this is a time consuming, tough test and my notes about the same cable change dramatically if compared at the 3 minute and 33 minute marks.
- 2
-
To expand a little on the other cabling, there is a Qrt QX2 line conditioner, going to a Nordost QB8 pin power board. The pre, amp and CD player are all fed by this 8 pin board. The idea of the multiple cable test will be the different cables will be lines up in the QB8 and then swapped in and out of the CD player. The review period for each cable will be approximately 40 minutes.
The CD player was chosen because of ease of access for the assistant and the long start time of the valve pre, but mainly ease of access.
- 1
-
1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:
You might be just warming up.... but this is significantly different to the test that was suggested.
- You rate the "change". So for 3 listens, you will have 2 ratings
- The rating is either "same", or "different"
I originally was going to try and evaluate 4-5 cables.
The feedback and suggestions from the start of the thread, primarily ZB was to trial "best" cable against "entry level" cable, this was basically decided on price. If I could hear any difference continue on.
The assistant was asked to start with any cable and make changes after 30-40 minutes of playing. I sat there and made notes that only I would probably understand. This was done mainly because I thought it would be difficult to have an objective reference point and that is the problem with this kind of test. My ears are going to focus on things that I might have an issue with.
My abbreviated results were 1 and 3 were the same cable and 2 was the other cable.
This took about 2 hours of focused listening and for me, wasn't easy. I wasn't drinking, I was tired and was taking notes.
-
3 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:
what component was the cable plugged into?
The cable was changed in and out of the CD player. Less down time and easier for lab assistant to reach.
-
Some results.
Cables that were tested in a side by side comparison were.
RK Cable lorad $175- new price
Nordost Odin series 1 $12000- second hand price.
How I evaluated was I took notes and scored cables out of 10 on these listening features.
Resolution, Clarity, Glare, Distortion, Attack, Decay, Sound stage, or a total score out of 70.
A CD was played for each trial, test time approx. 40 minutes per cable.
There were 3 changes that took place.
And I scored them as
Change 1 -cable scored well, good resolution, large stage, 53/70
Change 2 -not as good as the first one less resolved, bit more glare, smaller stage 43/70
Change 3 -a little harsh at first, but after 30 minutes attack and decay was improved, almost seemed to be playing louder than other cables, soundstage large 51/70
My guess was that it was Nordost Odin first and third change, lorad cable was the second change.
The actual reveal by faithful lab assistant was...
Damn, I have to go on a job, back a bit later.....
- 3
-
-
3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:
This all depends very much on what you are trying to do (the test gets designed around that). I don't understand that enough to comment yet.What is the question you are trying to answer? It might help if you say what you intend to write down about each trial.... you've just said "notes".
Example:
- Are you going to try and pick which is which?
- Rate them with a number?
- Rate them with qualitative?
- How you are going to compare or analyse the above?
If you wanted to answer "can I tell the difference between a cheapie cable, and one of these expensive ones". Then you could.
- A=cheap B=$$$$
- Listen to one (you don't know which)
- Listen to another (you don't know if it's the other one, or the same one)
- Write down if they were the same or different
- Do this enough times to be statistically significant (more than 10)
- Evaluate your success rate. 50% = fail (no different to guess). ~90% = significant ability to notice a different
Please don't take any of this as nitpicking, or silly stuff which doesn't matter
Thanks Dave for the options and the thought you have put in to this.
I'm hoping that I might be able to hear a difference in the cables, not pick which is which.
I am going to write notes after each "possible" cable change and see if the results are repeatable, the idea of starting with only two cables to do this is a good idea.
After that, if the results prove that there is an audible difference, I hope to then bring in the other cables and see if I can hear some audible similarity. This will be the part that would be the hardest to replicate results.
Looking forward to your opinions and thoughts, I wouldn't think you would intend anything ever to be nitpicking.
- 1
-
-
1 hour ago, POV said:
Folks I think this has the potential to be an interesting thread, provided folks stay rational and civil. There was some really interesting lines of discussion/debate going on in the recent thread that was closed, but that was intermixed with some silly personal attacks and insults. I think it's awesome that @steve u is prepared to give this a go so how about we respect that and keep the discussion civil and rational and thereby stop the thread from being locked.
Thanks Drew, for my own benefit, I'm going to try as hard as I can to make this as fair and as rational as I can, from the review side and look forward to the opinions of others.
-
1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:
I have a suggestion:
Limit the test to TWO cables only. One should be a standard IEC cable and the other a fancy, over-priced one. Using more than two cables will make things very messy and very difficult.
IF you can, reliably, hear a difference between a standard cable and a fancy one, then move on to a more complex test.
Ripped the standard cable out of the CD player last night and shoved the Odin in and angles started to sing. ...lol...that's not the point of it I know, so am going to stick with the "blindish" test experiment.
But I will give this a go Trevor and see if the Odin stands out like Norse God's proverbials.
- 2
-
1 hour ago, Soundwise said:
Hi Steve,
Do you have separate pre and power? Have you considered testing the power cord just on the power amp in lieu of the cd player and Pre? When I tested my power cables the improvements to my mono power amps were the most satisfying. I kept everything else exactly the same with each cable change.
Hi SW, have a Conrad Johnson ET5 and SS amp or could use my Weston 300B mono blocks.
The trouble with the pre is mainly the access, the assistant won't be able to reach over and change these cables easily. Then there is the slow start up time , each time the valve pre goes off.
-
1 hour ago, acg said:
Nice incentive Steve. Pics or info of the listening room and acoustic treatments etc. may be helpful for readers to compare their situation to yours.
Cheers,
Anthony
Hi Anthony, I'll add some pics and take some more pics soon.
It's a horn system, with some room treatment.
It has a cathedral ceiling and some diffraction treatment and some absorption at first reflection and a bit more further back. Basically no rear wall, or the closest rear wall 19 metres away.
So it's a pretty good room.
Cheers,
Steve
- 1
-
So I want to see, if I can identify when I think I hear a difference and see if it is repeatable. Others may come and join me, we'll see.
I'm going to burn a CD with about 6 tracks of various styles and recording quality and play the 6 tracks to allow for some settling time for each cable trialled.
My lab assistant/wife will change the cables each time and keep a log of each change, if a change actually happens. She will be swapping the cables in and our of my AudioLab CD player.
The cables will be covered with cloth, so I can't see and this clever rather rustic looking wooden yoke attached at the back of the system to facilitate quick and easy changes.
So far I have an RK Cable, a Nordost Valhalla and a Nordost Odin lined up, there will be another couple in the trial.
So I'll record notes each time she goes to make a change, which may actually not be a change, so I won't know.
I don't want to get into the science of a proper blind test being how, I'm not supposed to know what component is being changed and not even if there is a possibility of a change, because those scientific and pedantic things are too hard for the professionals top set up and monitor, let alone me. Also if you start nit-picking the methodology it might say more about your beliefs and than my methods. Speedy changes are not an option for this, the lab assistant isn't that interested in the process anyway.
However I would love to hear any constructive suggestions that could be made to "easily" improve the process.
A full list of components and cables and more pics will be added as I get me stuff together.
This will hopefully just be a bit of fun.....hahaha, has that ever happened with a power cable discussion.
- 12
-
I'm just wondering if hearing differences in cables could be like noticing cork taint in wine. Some people are just more susceptible to variation.
Cork taint can be picked up by people who are sensitive to it at 2-5 drops in an Olympic swimming pool. That's not much but some people pick up on it and others don't.
Could it be that people that don't perceive a difference to a cable change just not feel it, or hear it. Could they be drinking the corked wine and still loving it?
I have heard cable changes, but I want to rig up this unsighted trial just to see if I do pick up on some differences. I've tasted wine blind, but never cables.
- 1
-
Synergistic Research, Cardas, Skogrand and many others all advocate settling time for cables.
For the purposes of my test I thought I would burn a 6-8 track evaluation CD, with various styles and recording quality and just play it for each cable and maybe go back to a track or two that "could" highlight a difference.
About 30 minutes of settling time would be the most my patience would stretch, for a possible 6-8 cable changes. And the lab assistants patience isn't as flexible as mine.
-
4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:
Far too complicated. Whilst I applaud the sentiment, make it easy on yourself. Take a bog-standard, Australian approved cable and compare it to the most expensive one you can lay your hands on. Arrange for the cable to be swapped in and out (or left there) over the space of a week or so. Tabulate results.
Just to be clear: You should not know which cable is being used AND you should not know if a cable has been changed at all. If a difference exists, you should be able to nominate that there is a difference.
I might try both, the idea of getting results from an afternoon session appeals. And the idea of searching for differences that may be there over the course of a week is more of an exhaustive trial, but might be the way to go after the first experiment. If the first experiment yields any results at all.
At this stage I should have access to Norsdost Red Dawn, Frey, Valhalla, Odin, KLEI gPower2, RK Cable and a Zion cable and of course standard cables.
-
43 minutes ago, rocky500 said:
Unless you can change the cables over in under 2 seconds, I doubt it is worth your time trying.
2 seconds...this our lounge not pit lane, so l think we would be looking like 20 seconds per change.
I'm hoping for a hobby that gives me a lot of enjoyment I might find some differences with my ears.
I'll stop calling it a blind trial because there will be people saying it isn't other other people understanding the concept that I'm trying to create and say it is.
So it will be just another cable review without the bias of sight or price expectation.
My memory is pretty dreadful anyway so 2 seconds, 20 seconds or instantly I'll be equally challenged.
-
14 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:
Are you asking which one would be more likely to show a difference?
That's hard to say. What we know about power cables and power supplies ..... is that if there was a situation where changing a power cable made any difference to the performance ..... then it would be incredibly device and situation specific.
It's interesting that while we get "uncontrolled testing invalid - please do a better test" responses to peoples uncontrolled testing ...... we also get the opposite effect, where someone will do some variant of controlled testing - get a positive result (they could pick a difference), and then use that result to claim all sorts of things which the test method/result really didn't support. What I am saying is that if you do a controlled test and do pick a difference - then don't be surprised if people pick at the test method, or ensure you limit the conclusions to what is actually directly supported by the test method. Such is the nature of science/process. In oder to save disappointment, you should discuss your planned test procedure somewhere to see if you're covering all the bases you can practically cover.
FWIW - I would think that the most potential (to have an effect) is the CD player.
Well I was thinking along the lines of 4 cables, with maybe 6-8 "changes" . Including where there may be no change at all, meaning same cable twice.
Assistant records what each cables. Test subjects record results. Then at the end assistant reveals what cables were played at each change.
Test subjects can choose to reveal tesults or not.
Well, you have to start somewhere...
in Showcase Your System & Build Threads
Posted
STC 4212E mono blocks Andy