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bhobba last won the day on November 30 2014

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About bhobba

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    Seriously DAC Addicted
  • Birthday 17/11/1955

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  1. Hi All Samsung has recently released their new 2020 line up unveiled at the CES. They are going into 8k in a big way despite the fact you need screen sizes 75-80 (preferably 80) inches to see a difference at normal viewing distances - the 65 inch 8k model I have - forget it - providing the 4k model has their new AI up-scaling, which Samsung has now put in their 4k. models. I have the Samsung 8k 65 inch and it beats hands down the previous top of the line Samsung 4k it replaced and I simply love it. But that was before they put the new AI upscaling in the 4k models. BTW a note about the now heavily discounted end of year prices before the new 2020 models hit the stores - the difference in price is not that much and may make you say - what the heck - its an expensive TV anyway - so get the 8k anyway - that's the way I now look at it. I need to also add some prefer the upscaling in the Sony or other brands so its important to carefully check them out before forking out the cash. Anyway here is the side by side review with the new up-scaling in the 65 inch 4k: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2scswNMgMY Ok - you need 80 inches - but these large screen sizes are now the fastest growing market for Samsung, so they really need some way of taking advantage of 8k, but, are very concerned about the bandwidth required to transmit 8k content, so have come up with a sneaky, nearly magical way to do it - called AI Scalenet - which had me very intrigued. It can even transmit 4k as standard definition.- which is simply - well amazing. Here are a couple of reviews of the new models: https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/samsung-q950ts The exceptional texture and detail work isn’t just notable with native 8K sources, either. Samsung’s 8K AI Upscaling system now features a new Deep Learning element that appears to greatly increase the sense of detail and texture in the most detailed parts of the picture. If you thought 8K TVs were pointless because there’s no native 8K content, Samsung’s latest 8K Upscaling system is good enough – with native 4K sources, anyway – to force you to think again. https://theappliancesreviews.com/samsung-q950ts-8k-review/ AI ScaleNet technology reduces data loss during video streaming. AI ScaleNet compresses the content during transmission from the provider, and then restores it to the TV. Thereby, the new technology halves the bandwidth requirements. According to Samsung, it will continue to actively improve this technology, considering it very promising. In particular, the company has agreed with Amazon Prime Video to jointly test the AI ScaleNet. OK how does it work: https://news.samsung.com/global/developing-ai-scalenet-enabling-seamless-high-resolution-8k-streaming Here is some more detail (see from 27 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6SWYFEeA64&list=PL7PfK8Mp1rLE89RvwBh2IdCD3h6uAvgGm&index=29&t=1625s I think exactly how they do it is their secret but as they allude to it is based on something like the following: https://cv.snu.ac.kr/research/taid/ Interesting times ahead I think. Thanks Bill
  2. I have an 65 inch 8k television and love it. But that may be because of other factors that SAMSUNG puts in their flagship TV rather than the resolution eg their new AI up-scaling. You will see all sorts of arguments one way or the other if 8k is worth it, but really you need to hear from those organisations that have done the experiments: Also read the following: 8K Live Encoding at IBC 2019 Please read the link and watch the video, but I will summarize the findings, and they are very surprising. First despite what others will tell you, you can see a difference in 8k TV’s compared to 4k. The question is why - and that’s where its surprising. What Harmonic found from 8k and 4k sources into 8k TV’s is 8K looked substantially better. But then they applied (hopefully high quality) down-scaling on the the 8k to make it 4k and compared that to the 4k direct. Surprisingly the down-scaled 8K looked substantially better on the 4k or 8k TV. Now it was very close to the 8K direct into both TV’s. In fact people then found it very difficult to tell the difference between the two on normal size screens of say 65 inchs (the one I have). Conclusion - Harmonic believes we will switch to production in 8K but watch it in 4k - at least initially until screen sizes increase substantially. Just goes to show fact is stranger than fiction. Another interesting finding by another company, ISIZE, is the down-scaling used, by the use of AI, can achieve better quality pictures at substantially lower bit rates: https://www.isize.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/IBC2019_iSIZE_v81.pdf They found by transmitting, using AI to lower the resolution to 2/5 or 1/2 the resolution of 4K, depending on the content of each group of frames, then using a simple bi-cubic up-scaler, you can increase the 4K quality for about 60% the bit rate. Of course the source they apply the AI down-scaling to can be 8K instead of 4K. In this way you can greatly reduce the transmission bit-rate of 8K material to values of about 2.5 to 10 mps. But using whats called Adaptive Bit-rate Streaming - also called Dynamic Optimization by Netflix, this would equate to something like 5–6 mbs: Optimized shot-based encodes: Now Streaming! At the moment you need about 20 mbs (sometimes a bit less - say 15 mbs). Because of this I think 8k will be with us quite quickly and not at very high bit-rates so that only those with ultra-fast connections can watch it. Thanks Bill
  3. Having heard the difference the isolation platform makes I agree with Mike. I also have owned the BHK Amp and pre. Very good. But the best I have heard is actually no amp - that's right - no amp. The Chord TT2 is a DAC with an output stage that produces 18W. I heard it through my ML5's which are 89 db sensitive - the ML2's are a bit less sensitive at 86 db so 18w may not work too well with them - but, due to the ears logarithmic response (you need 10 times the power to sound twice as loud - that's the same as 10db - so it will only sound a bit less than the ML5's) its worthwhile checking it out - can save money as well since the amp is gone. Mike has my Chord down at his shop right now - if you can make it down there check it out. I have my Magnesium Limited's being completed soon - but its only 84 db sensitive. Likely will not work well with the Chord - but hey what the heck - will try it anyway. Just on this interesting power thing I have two Arion 500w monoblocks in my system right now when driven by 2v. I have 89db ML3's and use a Direct Stream DAC that produces about 2v at max volume. Each digit on the volume control - it goes to 100 - is .5 db. I find I listen to music at about 40 - 80 would be 10db down - or 50w on peaks - 60 would be another 10db down or 5w on peaks and 40 would be 10db down again - a puny .5w on peaks. It's amazing how little you need. Thanks Bill
  4. I heard them directly driving Mikes ML5's at his store. Mike was skeptical but was shocked how good it was. A direct comparison to the Grandiote was not done but I think it was better. He was impressed enough to really get his finger out with his Seas Exotic speakers that will be 92 db sensitive and an easy drive for the DAC, BTW I think its way cool as well. Amongst other albums I heard was Christmas with Dino. I still cant get it out of my mind. Thanks Bill
  5. Hi All Mike has a Chord TT2 which has the best sound I have yet heard from a DAC (yes I prefer it to the Grandinote). I have heard it on the ML5 - Mike can certainly check it out on the ML2, Its about $7K but it's DAC and amp combined. It may be what you are after - possible issue is HT Thanks Bill
  6. Could be - I can get carried away with tech. But I really like the HD up-sampling. Thanks Bill
  7. BTW that is only too true - and it is maddening because the cost of proper calibration can be a bit pricey. My installer said something like $1K to have it done properly. But another person said Todds Hi Fi did it for $135.00 but I am not sure how good they are. Manufacturers can't do it because the lighting conditions of the room affect the final outcome of what we see. This needs to be taken into consideration when calibrating a TV – so out-of-the-box perfection just isn’t possible. Besides what's in the showroom is simply to make your eyes pop - it's not even close to correct. I use the natural setting on my TV but even that would be vastly improved by proper calibration - its just that damn cost thing. Added Later: Checked with my installer - $700.00 for calibration. Not cheap but I have seen reviews where once calibrated some high end TV looked identical to a moderately priced one. So maybe its really a bargain. I personally will need to think about it. Thanks Bill
  8. IMHO it is, which is why I got it. But opinions vary. While I love Foxtel HD up-sampled to 8K others have posted they thought Sony OLED up-sampled to 4k better. So please, please do not get carried away with the technology - I do that a lot but its not a good idea - go down and check it out for yourself. My friend that checked it out for me did not compare up-sampled HD or check it - it was simply good luck on my part it turned out so good. Of course its the way of the future and prices will drop fast. Nowadays you can hardly buy a HD TV they are nearly all 4k. In a few years it will be the same for 8K. Will we eventually have 16, 32k etc. I have my doubts about that - on my 65 inch TV you can put your face right next to the TV and see no pixels. But then again they say eventually they will have TV's that cover the whole wall - 16k etc may be of some value then. Thanks Bill
  9. Did you read the link I gave - here it is again: http://www.insightmedia.info/8k-tvs-top-tv-line-ups-for-a-reason/ At normal distances (9 feet) 8k is judged 30% better with 60% better depth. Your claim it's not noticeable is based on the Snellen eyechart - but as explained above that is not the whole story. No digital content is transmitted lossless - but hopefully what is missing is not perceptible. With even more modern codecs than Blue Ray (and even with the same coded HEVC) tricks can be done reduceing it to some very low bit rates: If you think you know more than those doing research in it fine - but I tend to believe them. That may make me a fool - I will let others judge. The new up-scaling techniques do add resolution using AI to guess it - how effective it is is for you to judge - I find it makes genuine HD look better than 4K did on my old TV. But that's me - others have posted they do not like it. SD however is not as good. Its entirely up to the consumer if it will succeed in the market. Netflix doesn't reduce perceived quality in its main trick - dynamic optimization (a form of adaptive bit-rate using AI) - but is 30% more efficient and much more tolerant to changes in bandwidth of the internet connection I however love my 8K TV. Just check it out - you may love it to. If you do not then you can save yourself heaps. Thanks Bill
  10. Don't worry - prices will drop quickly just like 4K's. Thanks Bill
  11. I am very concerned you had trouble getting them to play your content. These TV's are not cheap - any decent store should facilitate you doing what you did. Glad you got to eventually. Strange though you found the opposite of me. I found up-scaled HD better than my previous TV's 4k and my friend preferred the Samsung 8k to the Sony OLED 4K - the opposite of your impressions. But that comparison was done with 4k material rather than HD. Just goes to show you must look at TV's with your own content and make up your own mind. BTW the more I watch my TV the better I like it. Thanks Bill
  12. That's not what I meant. A number of streaming services have genuine 4k material and its increasing. Some of it I even like eg Warrior. What I have noticed is on my 8k TV its up-sampling is much more sophisticated than on 4K TV's, being based on AI, so that its more like 8k restoration than up-sampling. Its so good I prefer it to actual 4k material on my old TV. I forgot to mention for me the situation is not quite as good with SD material. Just watching The Good the Bad and the Ugly transmitted in SD and while good I would say its not as good if it was HD ie the up-sampling is not as effective. But there is still a lot of HD material about to make it worthwhile. The only issue is expense - nearly $6k for a TV is a lot - but like 4k TV's prices will soon drop. However if you are able to spend that sort of dosh it is worth it. My Femur broke and it will take about another year to fully recover, although I can get around a bit now and go to lunch each day etc, I had to get a friend to do the following comparison. It was at Harvey Norman and they got a Sony 4k OLED and the Samsung 8K next to each other for a comparison on 4k material. Up close you could still see pixels on the Sony - but try as you might there was none on the 8k, From a normal viewing distance the blacks and etc were clearly better on the Sony due to the OLED - it would be great in a darkened room. However he preferred the Samsung 8k - the picture, while not as striking as the OLED was more natural, clearer, and with greater depth. Why that is, is explained in the link I gave before. At 8 feet picture quality on the 8k was rated as 30% better and depth 60% better. Combine this with state of the art up-sampling and for me it was the better choice which is why I got it. Now I have it I just love it - best picture I ever experienced. The caveats are of course expense and no actual 8k material. They haven't even figured out a standard way to stream 8k or even at normal viewing distances if it will look better than up-scaled 4k. This is cutting edge stuff with a lot of unknowns. The only thing I can say for sure is the Samsung 8k sure has a great HD and 4K picture. The SD picture, while good is not quite in the same class. Thanks Bill
  13. Hi IMHO no. 4k content is still limited, although some of what is transmitted via streaming I find nice to watch. But for me the main reason is you will mostly be watching up-sampled material. The very best up-samplers are not on 4K TV's but the new 8K models. I have just got one and it blew my 4K TV out of the water - clarity and depth on HD that everyone notices being better than even 4K material. Why is that? See the following: http://www.insightmedia.info/8k-tvs-top-tv-line-ups-for-a-reason/ I can confirm from owning one myself it pretty much what I personally notice: 'As a result of the study, 8K displays performance was rated 35% higher—with perceived image quality increasing by 30% and depth perception increasing 60% from 4K to 8K.' They viewed at 9 feet - I view at about 10-12 feet. Its at a good price right now: https://www.harveynorman.com.au/samsung-65-inch-q900-8k pro-qled-smart-tv.html If its in your price range I would seriously consider it. Be aware however that exactly how 8k will be transmitted or even if it will look any better than 4k up-scaled via the new Artificial Intelligence Algorithms these TV's have is not known at this stage - nor is there any 8k material being transmitted. But, as I said, to me up-scaled to 8K, HD looks better than 4k did on my old 4k TV. My guess for what its worth is they will transmit 8K at lower quality level than 4k and rely on various tricks (eg using AI like used in up-scaling) to make the quality better. Foxtel is already doing it in their 4K - they use an algorithm by a company called Harmonic to transmit parts at lower quality that you will not notice: https://www.harmonicinc.com/video-appliances-software/technologies/pure-compression-engine/ Thanks Bill
  14. Here is the link I posted before and my comments: http://www.insightmedia.info/8k-tvs-top-tv-line-ups-for-a-reason/ What they wrote is pretty much what I noticed: 'As a result of the study, 8K displays performance was rated 35% higher—with perceived image quality increasing by 30% and depth perception increasing 60% from 4K to 8K.' They viewed at 9 feet - I view at about 10-12 feet Thanks Bill
  15. Hi All Got it now. Indeed make sure you see it with your own content. Looking at HD and UHD streamed content everyone, including me says the same thing - its just so clear with greater depth. My suspicion is its not the 8K in and of itself - its the up-sampling that is simply cutting edge. The lack of any actual obvious pixels regardless of how close you are is not something you notice at normal viewing distances, but somehow when combined with the up-scaling clarity and depth is much increased at any distance. So check it out for yourself - the best deal at the moment I have seen is Harvey-Norman: https://www.harveynorman.com.au/samsung-65-inch-q900-8k pro-qled-smart-tv.html Nearly any store will price match - I got mine from video-pro. But again its not the resolution that hits you, it's the seamless clarity and depth. Why when you cant see pixels at normal distances that is I do not know. I think I did post a link at the start of peoples perception of 8K at normal distances. I will try and dig it up again and re-post it with some comments. Thanks Bill
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