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Everything posted by Satanica
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Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
If euipment is used within it's limitations and level matched and control tested then sure, yes. Anything contrary to the above could produce a result of no. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
As mentioned by sir sanders Revel especially, JBL too which are both under the Harman umbrella. Toole has both a pair of Salon 2's and M2's in his house. I remember reading on ASR there was a big shoot out between the two not so long ago at the Harman facility. From memory, Toole predicted that the Salon 2 would win and win they (narrowly) did. Many preferred the M2 but more the Salon 2. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
True, but some products for example are designed at the Harman Research Facility (DBT's) or by those who have read and based their designs on Floyd Toole's book (DBT's). -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
Playing devils advocate on behalf of the bad guys (I'm not one ) ... I've gone out on a limb and just tweaked that one a bit. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
OK, but I think if I pushed on your open door, then you pushed on Dave's open door. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
True, and if they are considered error free, then any additional "sound signature" would just undo that. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
I've only ever measured my system to provide more and more accurate data about the issues (particularly bass frequencies) with the idea to make it sound better, not to validate the good things about it. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
Hi Grant, see below. https://audio-head.com/the-harman-tour-part-1-loudspeaker-audio/ One of the most impressive tests Sean and the team conduct is a double blind comparison for loudspeakers. The experiment takes place in a custom built room with a hidden mechanical speaker shuffler. Recently renovated with a slightly tighter width, Sean says the smaller room size helps increase a greater sense of 1st reflection thus making the test more sensitive to the off-axis performance of the loudspeaker. An acoustically transparent curtain hides which loudspeaker you are listening to at any given interval. This brand/price anonymity helps remove expectation bias and through experience, Sean has concluded that being blind to the source actually makes listeners more sensitive to acoustic changes. Accuracy is important here. Not only can the researchers cull subjective observations from the subjects, but they also test for consistency in their responses. Surprisingly, lesser trained ears usually give higher approval ratings. The test is conducted utilizing a single speaker as their research shows that listeners are more discriminating of loudspeaker off-axis problems than listening in stereo or surround. According to the team, listeners can still gather a sense of spaciousness and air without a stereo image as a guide. The test I ran through consisted of 4 bookshelf speakers of fairly similar pricing (but of course I didn’t know that when the test began). A test track plays for a short interval before moving to the next loudspeaker. The subject simply moves a slider on an iPad interface to indicate which he/she likes on a scale. The brand of loudspeaker is never known, but options are identified to the listeners as A/B/C/D through a series of 4 rounds, usually presented in a randomized order. Testing can also be setup so subjects can take control of the switching for more responsive comparisons between two speakers. So what songs from the hundreds of available audiophile tracks available does Sean and the team play as an reference? Diana Krall? Acoustic Hotel California? The Beat Hotel? My mind raced with all the possible options and their implications. The answer wasn’t what I expected. Tracy Chaplin’s Fast Car, 16/44.1 played on a 20 second loop. Why? “It’s the closest thing to pink noise” Sean explains. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
The Hi-Fi industry doesn't really seem to promote the idea that Hi-Fi equipment has errors and if they do it's not something for one to really worry about. More like there are simply differences and in general the more you spend the better these differences get, with exceptions. Probably on the back of the idea certain designers have seemingly honed their craft on producing better differences and probably through rigorous sighted testing. I think I know this well, because it's the kind of falsity that was polluted into my mind as a young naive audiophile. Even equipment that might be marketed as better, is just simply because it's better, with no real explanation as to why. Of course there are exceptions to this, but I'm writing in general. So it seems quite a task to get many an audiophile mind into the headspace that equipment and especially overall systems including the room are full of errors and those errors are almost certainly why equipment sounds different, when a difference is actually demonstrated. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
Hi Grant, regarding these mono to stereo setup comparisons that you mention, I wonder if the mono speaker has ever been set up not in the middle of the room, but in either the left or right stereo speaker position or both at seperate times but with still only one speaker playing mono? I think I've read that Harman has improved one of their main mono speaker evaluation rooms by making it smaller so that more of the side wall reflections are included. The idea is to test a speakers directivitiy even better than they have in the past which is seemingly the cornerstone of Harmans research. This relates to my question above in that when a speaker is placed in the middle of room width wise, it's pretty much never how the speaker will be used practically in the real world. I wouldn't expect overall results to change much, but perhaps a little. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
And when I asked you many days and posts ago what the reference speaker was going to be and why for evaluating amps and DACs your response was in fact, nada. What excactly is this question on listening perception? Perhaps reflect on how well your questions are conceived and put forward. If you want to know more about listening perception (psychoacoustics) i've heard that Toole's book is good place to start. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
Yes, hard to argue otherwise. I've been using LOUDNESS volume compensation via DSP that adjusts as volume goes up or down for quite some time. It's not 100% accurate to these curves, but for me it's been a mega upgrade to my system. Especially as I also use DSP to flatten low frequencies which can give an overly lean presentation at medium and low volume levels. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
It depends on the noise, but as stated above these are guidelines based on average results. If you take the top red line 1000Hz tone at 100 SPL it is perceived as 100 Phon. But 100Hz tone at 100 SPL looks about 5 Phon down (up on the red line) so about 95 Phon. I've come to believe that these curves are known by music producers and are more or less factored in when mixing\mastering music. https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/ -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
I think there are 3 things on this graph and you need all three to provide the data. SPL is on the left, Frequency on the bottom and the red line and blue lines are in Phons. At 1000Hz (1Khz), SPL and Phon are almost identical and at other frequencies they are not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phon Unless I'm mistaken, these are correction curves which are effectively the opposite of what would be perception curves. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
From memory, the blue one is old from the 1930's and was done exclusively with headphones. From memory, the red one is from 2003 and was done with at least some speakers. So, the red one. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour -
A home theatre room on a budget DIY
Satanica replied to powerav's topic in Showcase Your System & Build Threads
Hooray! -
I think you're off topic George. Regarding the new version of Animals it is a complete remix, not just a remaster so the DR values can't really be compared apples for apples.
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There is no reason to think the master of the CD is any different than the streaming services, Hi-Res Downloads and the Bluray disc.
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Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
The microphone may say the frequency response is the same at different output levels. But our brain interprets it as different SINAD and more importantly as different frequency responses, think the Fletcher-Munson curves. And different frequency responses will affect the imaging perception. Regardless of whether you agree with the above or not, how can level matching be anything other than an advantage rather than a hindrance for comparison? It's a logical advantage. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
If somone was to truly attempt to answer your question, then they would need every single measureable metric. It would require a scientific study. My comment about the potential for sources to output at different levels is a hypothesis. In your words you asked a loaded question and I suggested a possibility. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
I have Andy, please think on it. -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
A level playing field is logical which is the kind of thing debates should thrive on -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
Your question can't be compreshensively answered if you don't provide comprehensive information and your experiment is performed in a comprehensive manner (level matching goes a long way towards this). -
Why you can't trust audio measurements
Satanica replied to rocky500's topic in General Hi-Fi & Beginners Discussion
A level playing field is logical which is the kind of thing debates should thrive on.