vivianbl

I contemplated the Time Machine SE 300B but was concerned about the low power output. Not sure of the Artisans power output. I had used my ESLs with a range of SS and Valves up to 80wpc. The extra power does give that sense of ease, but I’m now using a PSE 300B with 18wpc. Your ESL 57s look great. Really like the bronze/ gold colour of the grills.[emoji2]

Which version of 300B are you using with the Quad ESL 57s, Time Machine or Artisan? And what is the power rating? I’m using a different PSE 300B with my 57s and the bass is great too and concur with your comments about the vocals!

My lived experience with my one and only SET amp, or more precisely 300B Parallel SET, has been a very positive one and is being used as the primary amp driving my QUAD ESL 2057s (modernised 57s!) in the listening room. I have used both SS and valve amplifiers ranging from 10wpc to 80wpc including low powered valves Quad 11(15wpc), Leak ST 20 (10wpc) and higher powered ones to 80wpc. Both SS and valve (all push-pull) all sounded good, but presented the music in different ways . The Leak St 20 was the one I preferred because of the balance, extended highs, very good bass, imaging- separation and depth of image- and dynamic. I have the volume average at about 78-80db The 18wpc PSE most profound difference was in the level of instrument detail that it presented, the colour/timbre of instruments and its shear musicality. The listening room is very lively and once I improved the isolation of the electronic equipment the transparency improved and bass became more precise, detailed and extended- the best bass I have had to date from any of the amplifiers I have used. The weight, clarity and sense of ease with which orchestral and choral works are presented are also enjoyable . I am still listening at about 78- 80 db average level (and sometimes more!) and volume setting at 10.00 to 12 oclock position depending on recording and my mood! So there is a bit of dissonance between what are considered the SE flaws and my lived experience of one ! A lot of SE are 4-8 wpc which would be too low for the ELS 57s. I need to follow up the what the likely current and impedance issues related to my set up would be, but from a listening perspective I'm not hearing the likely "defects".

davewantsmoore from an earlier post- just a clarification/expansion Did you mean that the Quad ESL 57s will not be driven well by a SET amplifier?

Sources with this system: CD: Naim CDS3/XPS2 Turntable: Linn Sondek/Ekos/ Dynavector XX2 Mk2/ Hercules Mose 2 Tuner: McIntosh MR 74

I am reading through all the posts again trying to decipher, decode, digest and make sense of the detail in the discussion and debate. 😉 I must say I can now empathise with what Enrico Fermi, the noted physicist, said after he attended one of Albert Einstein's Lectures : "That he was confused about the subject matter before he came and after the lecture he was still confused... but at a higher level" !!😀

Sturdily built Melody EL36S integrated valve amp ( 60wpc) used with my Quad ESL 2057(modernised 57s!!) and Linn Isobarik speakers. A very versatile amp.

Another pair of Quad 11 with the old GEC KT66 Tubes

Oldie but goodie. One pair of Quad 11

For what it’s worth. Before spending $ on change in components, it may be worthwhile experimenting with the supports that you have the components on such as rack, table, platform - isolation/ coupling and minor adjustments in speaker placements,- distance from walls, separation Toe-in etc, and any other aspects of the particular room acoustics. I have found that small changes in the environment can make significant difference to the end music/ sound that is produced.- particularly with the brightness/ warmth, transparency issue and soundstage/ image. I have Naim pre (32.5and 72) and power amps including 250, and 135s used with various speakers over the years. I have had to make environmental adjustments to achieve the right balance for me. Forgot to add that interconnects and speaker cable also need to be considered. Little adjustments in tightness of the din connectors also have an impact. Good luck in your endeavours!

You must be a cynic from way back A9X!!😜. But I am interested in getting a better understanding of the innards of what I am now using. This is the first SET amp I have had and not an aficionado of that area. My other valve amps that I have used with the Quad ESLs have been push/pull from 10wpc to 80wpc (and solid state amps). Seeking further clarification from your explanation about the problem with PSE as compared to SE. 1. How will that effect/flaw that you describe show up in the audio/music output. "blurring" of sound? 2. Can better design to compensate provide a workaround to minimise this. 3. Wouldn't there be a similar issue with push/pull since you are not only dealing with "mismatched" devices, but you have to add the "mismatched" driving circuits in parallel, and the "mismatched" iron that "adds" the parallel signals together?3. thanks

Thanks for your succinct summary of the key issues with SE, that was very helpful. Totally understand that there are limitations and that speakers need to matched to the SE parameters to benefit, as many others have said. Just want to seek further explanation (excuse my ignorance !) on one of your points quoted above. How will this effect be heard/show up in the audio/music output from the speakers?.

I have 2pairs of Quad ESL 57s, one of which is a modernised version (from John Hall) which I refer to as ESL 2057s. These have more extension in the treble and bass and can be used with higher powered amplifiers. I use these as my main listening pair. Over the years I have tried them with both solid state and various valve amps that I have and others that I have auditioned with them. I kept coming back to my LEAK ST 20 (10w per channel) particularly with use of a passive pre with dual Dave Slagle Autoformers. I was talking with John last year about what type of more modern amplifiers that I could look at that I could get the best from the speakers. He mentioned that he had heard a single ended 300B amplifier with the ESL 57 some years back and though the result sublime. Started combing the internet about both, peoples experiences with 57s and SE 300 B and to get a better understanding of SET per se. There were disparate opinions and experiences conveyed which was not surprising. However, in a thread last year I was rather taken aback by the almost absolutist view put by some about SET amplifiers per se. “By definition an SET is not a competent amp. They are not even good enough to be called hi fi and personally I would take even an Amstrad amp over any SET.... you know, the ones which were about 10WPC and used a car radio IC to manage that from an undersize PSU etc” “I wouldn’t use an SET for anything other than a door stop personally.... they are not hifi... not beyond the first one Watt in the case of a 10 - 20W SET anyway...” “Which is why I would never use an SET. I genuinely can't think of any amplifier so bad that I would take an SET in preference to it... “I struggle to think of anything right about them.... no crossover distortion, there yer go... Everything else is awful! Assuming zero feedback then: 1/ Almost no damping factor. The frequency response will look like the impedance curve for the speaker! 2/ Very low power output generally. This is because it's single ended, which means it has to be class A, and single ended class A is generally even more inefficient than push pull class A 3/ Very high distortion which is readily audible as false warmth and lushness in many SET's but can give harshness in some cases. Were talking 10% THD here in many cases! 4/ In many/most cases very limited frequency response and much worse still power response. Get beyond the first Watt and you're often talking 100Hz to 10KHz type bandwidth.... very audible!. They are basically colouration generating special effects rather than hi fi amplifiers! If your ideal is 50's radiogram or 40's jukebox (but quieter) sound then they're just the ticket" "If an amp measures awful it will sound awful... or at best sound "nice" in a very coloured not hi fi way. Unfortunately it doesn't work the opposite way round!" "They can learn everything they need to know by reading my short list of why they are crap. They are not hi fi. If it measures poorly then it will have a compromised sound” There were no real counter arguments made to these statements and I want to get a better understanding of the issue without being too technical. Would appreciate your views/explanations. PS; I did end up acquiring a SE 300B, or more precisely a parallel single ended 300B (that may be even worse according to some)!!

Great to share information with another Audion Silver Night user. May not be many of us around in OZ! The two small valves in front on my model( 2012 build) are the same type (6H23N-EB). They appear to have a logo but no brand name-could be ones specially made for Audion. Each valve came with instructions on which one to put into specified left or right channel mono block and what socket - left or right - viewed from front. I wondered whether they were matched to particular circuitry! Read a lot on the net about 300B valves. Confusing and often contradictory views, but interesting nevertheless. In the end it’s about matching room, amplifier, other equipment being used in the system and what your particular listening tastes are. Will look up the Psavane 300B Tii. The new 300B valves on mine are the Shuguang 300B Black Treasure- so no glow here either![emoji853]

Hi Ooogh, I was fortunate in my search as I got my pair second hand, but with brand new 300B valves. Took the valves quite a while to open up though! The Silver Night PSE sound is as you described, but in my room and system set up, the image is a metre behind the line of the speakers and extends behind from there. The speakers are placed close to the side walls, so I can look at the stage and see the performance! I am used to a transparent and dynamic presentation and was initially wondering if I had made the right decision to go with the PSE! The transparency, dynamics and bass punch was missing at the start, but as the valves opened up and some tinkering with the acoustic treatment in the room I’m now getting very deep and tight bass- probably not as “ punchy”, as you say- the dynamics now are quite good, but with a sense of ease and detail. Orchestral works and opera have that weight and scale presented with such ease. Very captivating [emoji2] However, Not having heard the push pull version of these, I probably don’t know what I’m missing! [emoji6]