AccuTidal Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 @rmpfyfTalks are cheap! Proof it. I offer you the opportunity to realistically show me what your capable. Alternative - will you provide me the same offer..? I will certain to fly over at a weekend conveniences to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realysm42 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 This is a fascinating hobby; I'm glad i don't have the knowledge some in this thread have, i think id drive myself mad with the possibilities lol! I find i get the nervosa even at my (not noob, perhaps advanced) level. @rmpfyf is it possible to have a pc that can be booted to either a Windows OR a Linux environment? @Chanh nice investment on Windows server; have you tried AO with it? Not that i pretend to know but it seems to be a particularly comprehensive mod, evenr with W10 pro (what i have) and if course you can take it a lot further with the server version. Be interested to hear your thoughts if so. I just bit the bullet and ordered a terabyte ssd. Before i fit it I'm going to pop the trunk and perform the same mods for the ics on both (os boot and media storage) that i did earlier with my ram. Mighy add some magic fairy dust to them aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, realysm42 said: @rmpfyf is it possible to have a pc that can be booted to either a Windows OR a Linux environment? Sure is. Some intermediate skill but very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Chanh said: @rmpfyfTalks are cheap! Proof it. I offer you the opportunity to realistically show me what your capable. Alternative - will you provide me the same offer..? I will certain to fly over at a weekend conveniences to you. You want to fly across the country to discover how UAC2 and WASAPI work? Chanh really, it's not intended as a slight. I'm sure your system sounds awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukynas Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 @Chanh not sure where this "prove it" mood coming from but I believe everybody here trying to help and share their opinions and experience no matter if the same or different, there is no better or worse once you pass the threshold of distortion of your system and what left is "difference" called character, so expressing this or that is better or worse is very subjective and comes down to peoples preferences no matter how many of them prefer this or that character being open minded to others preferences or opinions/experience is more than welcome because there's no perfect system or component for everybody, just my 2c anyway, what on mother's earth? Chanh's running windows system I had a chat with young chap (software engineer) upgrading my DAC couple of months ago and during his work he expressed his view on usb drivers and stated that the best way how to use your system is in KS mode even if he knew it's hard to do because of unsupported modes within windows, since than I'm on wasapi and can't complain even if it means I can't play native DSD going back to my original question few posts back, my streamer has been finished (for now) so some observation and explanation for my question.... assembly of super caps - check prove of concept - check initial testing - check test measurements - check fitting and connection - check final measurements - check sound test - uncheck, my DAC left channel died over the last weekend after surgery and PSU/trany upgrade (which took 5 weeks) so couldn't perform any further comparisons now the reason for my question and one of the drawbacks of above solution, charging those supper caps takes between 5-10 minutes (didn't measure exact time it took just estimate) so it's bit unpractical to switch it off every time I'm done with listening and than waiting again to be able to listen to my music, on the other hand I don't wanna keep it on as my pc board still consuming certain power when switched off as in case of smps so it would drain the caps to 0, to keep lifespan of the caps at maximum I would assume it's better to switch it off every time it's not in use but I'm not sure in this case how the small consumption of the pc board affect it because of the DAC accident I had to start thinking about potential solution until I find root cause and possible solution which might take weeks and at the end won't guarantee I will be able to fix it (potentially dead sabre chip and digital surroundings) so 2 days ago I asked friend of mine who has local hifi shop if I could steal some spare time from him in his studio to test my streamer and potentially look for new balanced DAC for my Hypex power amp ( I couldn't live without music any longer ), after 2 hours of listening to his gorgeous pile of electronics ( you know that feeling of being child in new kinder garden full of toys ) and talking about stuff I walked away with this... + free Pangea power cable and 20% discount, we were both happy but can't say the same about my bank account , ah well, life is shait and than you die so why not.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 The simple question of "which sounds best" is not really meaningful given that people have different reference points and tastes. As I have stated several times before, I have used state of the art spinners through the same DAC as a yardstick. Every modification, every software or bios tweak was subjected to that comparison to gauge if I was truly headed in the right direction. What this process has revealed is that no other discussion or theory could possibly reveal is the degree of timing errors made with different server configurations. You might want to call the phenomenon something else, thats fine, but I'm talking about, as an example, the impact of the leading edge of a transient - On what I consider to be better servers, the impact is sharper and more pronounced than the the more woolly rendition of lesser servers. Coupled to that is better resolution, more micro dynamics and lower noise floor. Often "improvements" in some peoples minds simply means smoother midrange than before. Using my "yardstick approach", I had often found that timing and resolution had suffered at the same time so I searched for another way. A couple of die hard vinyl guys I know pick up on it straight away because the timing issue with vinyl has already been well sorted out and they have first rate vinyl setups. Timing is everything but you must have a way of referencing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Chanh said: You are not the only Engineer here. I am not speaking as an "engineer".... I am speaking from my own experience (and from what I have heard others say also) .... Where (for some DACs) a DAC which needs a driver before it can operate on Windows, was very unreliable and low performance - due to the poor quality driver. ... of course, for other DAC with windows driver required - it is excellent. 4 hours ago, Chanh said: What gives you the assumptions your superior then the rest? Absolutely nothing..... I'm not trying to say that I am.... I'm simply trying to recount my experience with various quality of drivers. However.... perhaps try looking in the mirror (?!?!) Chanh: If your DAC has a windows driver, then that wil always produce the best sound quality Dave: I've come across DACs where the windows driver produces terrible performance (compared to platforms which don't require a specific driver) ..... so, sometimes the windows driver can mean good .... sometimes bad. Chanh: "Take it or leave it" .... Your analysis is limited ('desktop analysis')..... come over to my house, and we'll prove it. 4 hours ago, Chanh said: use the ears for God Sake Why do you think I didn't? You made a very big generalisation. (windows driver = always best) .... I said, that I had seen sometimes not always best ..... and then so it must be sometimes good, sometimes bad (guess it depends) What is so wrong with that? 4 hours ago, Chanh said: to promote self brain power. So.... what you are saying, is that if I have any experience which doesn't match with yours.... then I am self promoting, and must have not used my ears? Is that right?! Edited May 20, 2017 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 hours ago, realysm42 said: @rmpfyf is it possible to have a pc that can be booted to either a Windows OR a Linux environment? Yep. "dual boot" is a helpful search term if you want to learn about this. A very hand thing you can do, is have multiple copies of windows (or linux, or whatever) installed .... and then you can boot into one of many operating systems. This will let you easily test between different optimisations you have done, or different OS versions, etc. Eg. you could have 2x copies of Windows installed. One with AO ... an the other the same but without. The all you need do is reboot, and pick the other one to test the difference between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukynas Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 hours ago, realysm42 said: @rmpfyf is it possible to have a pc that can be booted to either a Windows OR a Linux environment? sure, you can even try some USB bootable distros like Volumio x86, just chose correct booting sequence when restarting your PC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Chanh said: show me what your capable. I don't think he said that his computer sounds better than yours. My mechanic (who is extremely experienced with very awesome cars) drives himself a pretty average car....... when he provides his knowledge and experience about cars to people ..... they don't say "bring your car over and prove it .... and if my car beats yours then what you said is wrong". Owning something good, doesn't make a persons knowledge / experience any more or less correct, or helpful to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 hour ago, kukynas said: I had a chat with young chap (software engineer) upgrading my DAC couple of months ago and during his work he expressed his view on usb drivers and stated that the best way how to use your system is in KS mode Interesting .... I would love to know his specific reasoning (as it is unconventional advice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukynas Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 he mentioned that kernel streaming is the easiest way of those 3 with minimum processing, I didn't ask any additional details around it as I had no reason to not believing him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Yes, my understanding is that KS is still the best way to skin the Windows cat...for all the generalisations that implies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 39 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Yep. "dual boot" is a helpful search term if you want to learn about this. A very hand thing you can do, is have multiple copies of windows (or linux, or whatever) installed .... and then you can boot into one of many operating systems. This will let you easily test between different optimisations you have done, or different OS versions, etc. Eg. you could have 2x copies of Windows installed. One with AO ... an the other the same but without. The all you need do is reboot, and pick the other one to test the difference between. +1. To add a bit to the above - @realysm42 you've got a 1TB SSD (which is huge) - what do you plan to do with it? Just OS, music storage, etc? Running multiple OS is easy once you've worked out how you want to split it up, so that's what's important. Multiple Linux or Windows doesn't quite mean you need to install everything multiple times (there are bits you can share), once you get the partitioning sorted you're sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 @acgIs spot on about KS for Windows...Respects! @realysm42I have tried Windows Server 2016 without any anticipation it is better. It is a paranoid habit of mine, kept looking for improvement for SQ. Many thanks to one SNAer in NSW, who sent me the Windows Server 2016, AO, HQ-Player, and other tools for me to experiment.... After the trial - I quickly abandoned my Linux, Snakeoil. Anyway - cutting story shot - Yes AO 2.20 beta5 is wonderfull... You now can do roon, hq-player in core mode where it was not possible. shoot me a pm if you need my input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 19 minutes ago, kukynas said: he mentioned that kernel streaming is the easiest way of those 3 with minimum processing Sorry, what do you mean by "those 3" (Sorry, if I've missed something obvious / important. I'm on my second bottle of wine now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 17 minutes ago, acg said: KS is still the best way 3 minutes ago, Chanh said: KS for Windows...Respects! Any idea where I can read about why it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukynas Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 sorry Dave, I supposed to be more specific, Asio, Wasapi and KS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 32 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Sorry, what do you mean by "those 3" (Sorry, if I've missed something obvious / important. I'm on my second bottle of wine now) Guessing KS, WASAPI, ASIO... for Win10 you could add AudioGraph. You can add DirectSound and Wave Out if we go back in time. I'm sure I've left a few out. A few of these go through an audio server (kmix in older Win) without a way around it. 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: Any idea where I can read about why it is? MSDN, though they're a little partial to whatever's new in any OS. ASIO is direct, it's a proprietary (Steinberg) standard, and goes direct to device with some custom mixing at device level (hence popular with pro audio applications). KS dates to XP and goes direct to device, it was the original Windows way of having exclusive access to an audio device - if you need bits out of an application to the audio device at lowest latency, it's it. Not MS's preferred way (probably because it runs in kernel mode) but no matter. KS support changed a little too in Win 10. WASAPI got added to the mix when the Win audio engine changed for Vista (literally went 32-bit), it added audio grouping, added endpoint identification ('control my DAC', 'control the headphones' etc) and most importantly, it put the mixer in user mode (not kernel). WASAPI is configurable for for exclusive access when so configured. WASAPI latencies got better under Win10. KS is better under Win server, it's lighter weight and somewhat designed to be hacked. 1 hour ago, Chanh said: Many thanks to one SNAer in NSW, who sent me the Windows Server 2016, AO, HQ-Player, and other tools for me to experiment.... After the trial - I quickly abandoned my Linux, Snakeoil. Chanh it's great that you've made a leap forwards. What KS does ALSA does too, appropriately configured for direct access and exclusive access. The rest is the OS around it, and again... configurable. AO is an excellent product. I've heard it, very impressive. Then I went off and tried to build the same in Linux... because I could, because it cost me nothing, and because it's fun for me. For some - not all of us - the configuration is half the fun. Knowledge evolves, this isn't a bad thing. I joined SNA thinking it was all about general-purpose round-trip latency, remember? Wasted a lot of time not taking your advice. Then... remember when you (and others) used to rag on me (and others) going on about C-states? You've since supported wtfplayer and AO, both of which push minimum latency and no C-states. We've all had changes on this thread - HPET on or off... minimum device latency and high CPU stress or not.... Atom vs Core... the more we learn the more our projects and experiences in this game evolve. All of us. This isn't a fight - no need to get on a plane - always happy to talk with people on the same journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDrawerDown Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 I've been discouraged by the combative nature of digital audio since 2013's Jie Extreme thread and am pleased this one appears to have settled a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realysm42 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) To clarify, ive got: 1. A 110gb ssd for the os 2. A 1tb ssd for music storage on order (currenty got a 500gb ssd in the system) I've created two partitions already on ssd 1. Both partitions have: A. Windows 10 Pro B. Dirac drc C. Process lasso D. Fidelizer E. Audiophile optimiser, set to Ultimate mode (exclusively on one partition) This gives me a general use, good sounding set up in the first and a much more specialised second desktop, purely for audio. Another upgrade today; put the nice carpet back in the room, instead of the threadbare tat we've for the last two months, due to our puppy - Reginald! Room was measured (for drc) with good carpet in place, so was sounding a tad warm on top with the tatty one in place (1/3 size, perhaps 1/5 thickness). Edited May 21, 2017 by realysm42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 @realysm42 So the magic question is - how much spare space do you have on the 128GB SSD? If you can squeeze a good 20-40GB (probably less but give yourself some breathing room) you can build a pretty solid Linux build and have a menu up front that chooses what to boot into - which will include both Windows and your Linux build in a variety of configurations. Or as @kukynas suggests you could grab a ready-made music-Linux-on-a-stick, plug that in and see how you go. I reckon you could go further in Win land by starting with Win Server as @Chanh has suggested. (The 'sane other question' is - do you have space on a network somewhere to backup your OS SSD?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realysm42 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Yeah server would be the gold standard for Windows but I'm not prepared to drop that money (yet, lol). Re: Linux I'd have to try it on a stick, because as you've said, precisely due to space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 1 hour ago, realysm42 said: Yeah server would be the gold standard for Windows but I'm not prepared to drop that money (yet, lol). Re: Linux I'd have to try it on a stick, because as you've said, precisely due to space. How compatible is Reginald with intact USB sticks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) I had the opportunity listen to Aurender W20 today. The unit is built rigid and weighty. I must admit online photographers don't do it any justice. What amazed me were the dual AES output capability...., where it matched well with dCs DAC input... And this combo did slap me in the face with jaw dropping amazement... sighhh.... lets get back to the drawing board! Edited May 21, 2017 by Chanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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