realysm42 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Thanks @Chanh, I can see in the bottom picture you've separated the different sections, did this have an impact on SQ? I can certainly see why one would think it does. Also, have you put tape over parts of the motherboard? That's what it looks like. I assume this is to damp noisy ICs? What's the top picture about? I assume that's not just sheet metal, as the case is solid aluminium, can you tell me more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, realysm42 said: Thanks @Chanh, I can see in the bottom picture you've separated the different sections, did this have an impact on SQ? I can certainly see why one would think it does. Also, have you put tape over parts of the motherboard? That's what it looks like. I assume this is to damp noisy ICs? What's the top picture about? I assume that's not just sheet metal, as the case is solid aluminium, can you tell me more? @realysm42 - They are no tape, they are emf sheetings. I floored the whole motherboard's footprint with emf sheeting. You might or might not like it? I found it was extremely darker noise floor and smoother, better body to the top ends. Eliminated the artificial digital grains..., some people think it compromise resolutions and details....! Why not try it, see if is to your liking.., it's so hard to judge better or worse hence I can't recommend other then encouraging you to try out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realysm42 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Chanh said: @realysm42 - They are no tape, they are emf sheetings. I floored the whole motherboard's footprint with emf sheeting. You might or might not like it? I found it was extremely darker noise floor and smoother, better body to the top ends. Eliminated the artificial digital grains..., some people think it compromise resolutions and details....! Why not try it, see if is to your liking.., it's so hard to judge better or worse hence I can't recommend other then encouraging you to try out! Indeed; I am very interested to try it out. I'm looking on the 3M site; there are many choices, I don't know which ones would be most effective in this environment. There are two ranges they advertise they absorb from: 200mhz - 10ghz 50mhz to 10ghz Can you tell me which one you chose and why? Edited March 23, 2017 by realysm42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, realysm42 said: Indeed; I am very interested to try it out. I'm looking on the 3M site; there are many choices, I don't know which ones would be most effective in this environment. Can you tell me which one you chose and why? I think mine were the thickest ones on digikeys. Anywhere else seem cost more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realysm42 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, Chanh said: I think mine were the thickest ones on digikeys. Anywhere else seem cost more. Thanks for the link - looking at the price of this stuff makes the Stillpoints ERS cloth seem like a bargain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Jones99 said: Chanh I will be home very soon so if you want you can do the comparison yourself and not rely on other opinions. As someone who owned and compared the DX and W20 my findings were very very different. If your system is a little hot the DX will help tame it .It puts a veil on the music for me .....if your system is well balanced and you are happy with your electronics the W20 will give you a better window to music in my experience. This comparison was through usb..... now when we add a Vivaldi Master Clock and dual AES/EBU well I think the gap will grow even further but proofs in the listening.... That is a very polite way of describing the DX performance - but there is probably no reason to elaborate further. Looking forward to Aurender vs Vivaldi comparo however! Edited March 23, 2017 by Tasso 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 I have found that shielding everything doesnt always give the best results. Obviously shield PSU if its in the same case as motherboard, but selective shielding of critical areas does seem to help. For the SOTM "super clock" I enclosed it in a thick steel case which is also heavily damped to prevent vibration penetrating it. For the remainder, I wasn't enamoured with the blanket shielding approach and experimented with key areas that seemed to help. As we know from audio experience, physical vibrations play a part as well. I started with a heavy case, and added TAOC feet. I also damped the lid with automotive damping material. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Since I bought the Accuphase DP-950 disc spinner to compliment the DC-950 DAC, the task of perfecting CA to the same degree seemed that much harder in view of the new standard. However, I finally got around to installing the Ultracap LPS-1 ( powered by Hashimoto modified LS-2) to provide power to the SOTM card and the super clock. Although 12V is the specified requirement for PCI card, 7.5V works just fine. Anyway, things just got a bit better. My system has a very low noise floor and tweaks done to the server are mostly audible. This one clearly so. Don't get me wrong, some might think of the differences as minor in the overall scheme of things but against a pretty good reference point, I am pleased with the result. Overall, server noise floor has dropped further and overall timing and timbre has improved. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 @Tasso @Chanh if I could ask a *slightly* difficult question What, in your opinion, do you think your servers cost (including power supplies)? As in if someone had to build it from scratch and not counting the cost of lessons learnt. Maybe just a ballpark figure if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, rmpfyf said: @Tasso @Chanh if I could ask a *slightly* difficult question What, in your opinion, do you think your servers cost (including power supplies)? As in if someone had to build it from scratch and not counting the cost of lessons learnt. Maybe just a ballpark figure if possible. First let me say that It was never my intention to find a cheap solution for a music server, it was only sound quality that I was interested in. I also refuse to buy a ready made server retail that was made from readily available computer components, particularly where i did not see a correlation between the quality of product and the price charged . Having said that, power supplies came to around $2.5k , plus the latest LPS-1. The Hashimoto transformers and chokes really push out the cost there. For the server - Sotm card , super-clock and 2 X SSD's racked up close to $2k. The cheapest parts are the basic computer - motherboard, memory , pico, case . This would come to around $800, half of which would be the case alone. I haven't regretted the PSU for one second by the way and cherish it dearly. I cherished it so much I have an additional complete PSU that i use in my theatre where i have a 110" screen and projector. . If anybody has any reservations of what a good PSU can do , they should see the scale of improvement between images created using standard SMPS and decent linear power with devices such as Dune HD and mac Mini/HTPC projected onto a screen. And Yes SSD does improve things more. The difference with video is everyone in the family can immediately recognise the improvement ( whether they care is another matter) but with audio, its usually just us humble folk who seek solace of like minded souls on forums such as SNA to prove we are not really going mad. Edited March 23, 2017 by Tasso 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 @Tasso no need to justify. Price is reasonable for a reference solution. Thanks for sharing. Don't regret any of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 16 hours ago, rmpfyf said: @Tasso @Chanh if I could ask a *slightly* difficult question What, in your opinion, do you think your servers cost (including power supplies)? As in if someone had to build it from scratch and not counting the cost of lessons learnt. Maybe just a ballpark figure if possible. I have been put together Computer servers, from $1.5k to $2.5k, they sound pretty satisfactory for/to the owners. Note - The most expensive items, which can not be replace are; 2TB SSD, decent LPSU. The rests you can substitute to more affordable without too much compromise on the SQ. Unless you are like Tasso, everything even a sign of movement from the artist, breathing, and tiny little ambiance noises, must be heard through the speakers..., then his $10k receipt will no doubt is there.... The followings can be replaced; 1. USB Card: The Sotm card or its clocks, that alone is $800 - $900 pending exchange rates. It can be replace by the Shaar Deluxe, and is sufficient for $300 delivered. 2. Power supply to USB Card: Sala Shunt 5vdc is more than adequate to power the usb card, which is less than $200 to build. 3. Main DC power: Though I recommended the stock JS-2 as absolute minimal, if one can afford them. There are also other alternative which does not compromise much pending your downstream setup. If your setup is not $250,000.00 rrp like Tasso's, You will most definitely not heard any differences....... Hope it helps... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwise Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 16 hours ago, rmpfyf said: @Tasso @Chanh if I could ask a *slightly* difficult question What, in your opinion, do you think your servers cost (including power supplies)? As in if someone had to build it from scratch and not counting the cost of lessons learnt. Maybe just a ballpark figure if possible. My Asus mini pc costs approx. $500 and it sounds fantastic. The trick is to optimise the OS and usb connection. You are welcome to come have a listen in Melb east. If there are others interested I could have a GTG for up to 3 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) My approach to computer audio is thoroughly different to most of this thread. The transport and DAC must be welded together using I2S I2S over a consumer cable (eg. HDMI, ethernet) is not sufficient I2S over something else, eg. your own wires with uFL connectors or something - is insufficient unless you are an expert with fast signals Basically what this means is that you need the transport and DAC to be in the same box.... people approach this scenario by using a "2 PC solution" with a dedicated transport computer that does little but simply connect to the DAC. For mine, a more "modern" DAC that includes some sort of "computer" inside, like a FPGA, or some other optimised/dedicated silicon are required. The DAC must go to extreme lengths to attenuate jitter. More extreme versions that what is found in most hifi oriented equipment. There are a few patented solutions for this which work well. There shouldn't be any/much electrical connection between 'noisy' computers (where you run your OS, player, DSP, etc.) and you DAC This includes maximum electrical isolation for the signal cables between the computer, and the transport/DAC (eg. optical cables, opto isolated, or non-grounded cables) This also includes mains cabling - running devices on different circuits, or transformers is helpful. The goal is to have a DAC which is not affected by goings on further upstream. A situation where small changes upstream (eg. in the computer) produce changes downstream, means that this hasn't been achieved. I wouldn't say that flavouring the system with noise (or lack of), is an invalid approach..... but it's certainly more difficult and less reliable. Edited March 26, 2017 by davewantsmoore 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwise Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 my mini pc usb 2.0 port is isolated from the dac with an Intona which works really well. http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/intona-usb-isolator/ The isolator is connected via 2 x short 15cm silver usb cables. Contrary to some reviews of the intona, I have found that both usb make a difference to the sound ie the one feeding the isolator and the one going to the dac. I tried the curious regen cable and it wasn't as good as with these http://penonaudio.com/USB-2.0-A-B-DAC-Pure-Silver-Cable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, Soundwise said: my mini pc usb 2.0 port is isolated from the dac with an Intona which works really well. http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/intona-usb-isolator/ The isolator is connected via 2 x short 15cm silver usb cables. Contrary to some reviews of the intona, I have found that both usb make a difference to the sound ie the one feeding the isolator and the one going to the dac. I tried the curious regen cable and it wasn't as good as with these http://penonaudio.com/USB-2.0-A-B-DAC-Pure-Silver-Cable A challenger to the Curious throne. I gotta try this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwise Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, scumbag said: A challenger to the Curious throne. I gotta try this! Yes, this cheaper cable is more revealing but can create other issues with the top end and brightness. I compensated for this using better power cables and now the balance in my system is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 28 minutes ago, Soundwise said: Yes, this cheaper cable is more revealing but can create other issues with the top end and brightness. I compensated for this using better power cables and now the balance in my system is perfect. Having experimented a lot with speakers, amplfiers, cables and forth, I have found that whilst "more revealing" is great for us detail freaks, it can get tiring and as you say, you then need to balance the system to make it listenable in the long term. I don't really have much to play with in my system to tame brightness to honest so the PSC might be too much of a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewaves Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Chanh said: I have been put together Computer servers, from $1.5k to $2.5k, they sound pretty satisfactory for/to the owners. Note - The most expensive items, which can not be replace are; 2TB SSD, decent LPSU. The rests you can substitute to more affordable without too much compromise on the SQ. Unless you are like Tasso, everything even a sign of movement from the artist, breathing, and tiny little ambiance noises, must be heard through the speakers..., then his $10k receipt will no doubt is there.... The followings can be replaced; 1. USB Card: The Sotm card or its clocks, that alone is $800 - $900 pending exchange rates. It can be replace by the Shaar Deluxe, and is sufficient for $300 delivered. 2. Power supply to USB Card: Sala Shunt 5vdc is more than adequate to power the usb card, which is less than $200 to build. 3. Main DC power: Though I recommended the stock JS-2 as absolute minimal, if one can afford them. There are also other alternative which does not compromise much pending your downstream setup. If your setup is not $250,000.00 rrp like Tasso's, You will most definitely not heard any differences....... Hope it helps... These are also meant to make a significant improvement, mine is on its way. @chanh happy for you to borrow as I won't have a chance to try it for a few weeks. https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php https://andreweverard.com/2016/07/12/review-mutec-mc-3-usb-clocking-the-best-way-to-improve-your-digital-audio/ac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, thewaves said: These are also meant to make a significant improvement, mine is on its way. @chanh happy for you to borrow as I won't have a chance to try it for a few weeks. https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php https://andreweverard.com/2016/07/12/review-mutec-mc-3-usb-clocking-the-best-way-to-improve-your-digital-audio/ac Whooohooooo! You know, I have been on the watchout for it, in the classified. I need it to once again, name and shame W20. That is my only last missing piece of puzzle, in my defence for W20. Thank You Kindly @thewaves - I will be over the moon for the loan. Happy to pay back with level of efforts for your server building/assembling... Edit: Opppss...! Your W20 is also on its way...! Edited March 24, 2017 by Chanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 4 hours ago, Soundwise said: My Asus mini pc costs approx. $500 and it sounds fantastic. The trick is to optimise the OS and usb connection. You are welcome to come have a listen in Melb east. If there are others interested I could have a GTG for up to 3 people. Fantastic! I am truly happy for you, that you're satisfied with your setup at $500. Often, most audiophiles can't and couldn't...., when they were able to have the opportunity to hear better SQ performer(s) server(s) there are. FYI - We as the group, previously, ventured into every possibility there is, no matter how minor despited the cost/resources to yield the highest possible SQ. Those including building a complete new audio OS for specific audio player with minimal processors under operating...! All sort of software(s), hardwares, tweaks, power supplies, and too many gtg for overall feedbacks/findings for future SQ improvements....! Well - how long is a piece of string..., as long as your happy with your setup and with what your hearing, that really is all it matters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwise Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, Chanh said: Fantastic! I am truly happy for you, that you're satisfied with your setup at $500. Often, most audiophiles can't and couldn't...., when they were able to have the opportunity to hear better SQ performer(s) server(s) there are. FYI - We as the group, previously, ventured into every possibility there is, no matter how minor despited the cost/resources to yield the highest possible SQ. Those including building a complete new audio OS for specific audio player with minimal processors under operating...! All sort of software(s), hardwares, tweaks, power supplies, and too many gtg for overall feedbacks/findings for future SQ improvements....! Well - how long is a piece of string..., as long as your happy with your setup and with what your hearing, that really is all it matters. Yes, my $500 mini pc is the best I've heard but that is just my opinion hence my offer for a gtg in Melb East. It'll be good to compare notes with others who have also been down this path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukynas Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: My approach to computer audio is thoroughly different to most of this thread. The transport and DAC must be welded together using I2S I2S over a consumer cable (eg. HDMI, ethernet) is not sufficient I2S over something else, eg. your own wires with uFL connectors or something - is insufficient unless you are an expert with fast signals well said, just 1 note to it, at least in my view and experience, transport doesn't need to be streamer as such but I2S converter of the upstream signal, doesn't matter if it's USB, network or HDMI signal, FPGA with well executed buffering and reclocking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 @Soundwise I'll happily hear it if you're hosting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 @Chanh, did you get any joy from your upgraded Shaar Deluxe card request? I don't recall reading any results. I sent mine back to HK a month ago, with suspected earthing problems - it appears to have become lost in transit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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