Perth meet up interest check

[JDWest]

OK, I started a new thread for the upcoming DAC GTG

 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/81826-dac-shoot-out-gtg-in-perth/

[Steve M]

Hi JD,

Would be attending except that I will be up at Shark Bay that weekend ...

Cheers,

Steve.

[a.dent]

Hi Steve

Good luck with the fishing.

I hope you land some big ones.

We'll have a beer for you.

Andrew

[THOMO]

Any room for a last minute Loulou?

 

Jon

[THOMO]

Thank you JD for hosting an excellent and well organised GTG..

We got to hear a fantastic system and an interesting collection of DACs .....and characters.

 

If I had to pick a favourite it would be the Audio Synergy E DAC [a tricked up Audionote and  sounding like a KillerDAC on steroids]Followed by the Vitus CDplayer/DAC and the HQ Audio reference.

Best value by a long way was the HQ Audio Reference but it is DIY so perhaps should be.

All very different technology and output stages but all sounded natural,clear and free of "digital" nasties.

 

Most of the DACs sounded very good.I think they reflected the progress made in the sound of DACs in recent years.It was quite hard for me to hear much difference between some of them and you would need to live with most of them for a while to get a better handle on how they really sound.Certainly I would not discount most of the ones we heard and they probably all warranted further listening.

Edited May 17, 2015 by THOMO

[Krell_audio]

Damn missed another one! I need to come on here more regularly. Hope a good night was had by all?

[baMarek]

That was a great GTG!

 

Big thanks JD for hosting it so well and allowing us to play with your toys. And let's be clear, these toys are damn serious. What you did to make your system so transparent is very impressive and my wife will curse the day we met knowing that you gave me inspiration to spend more $$$.

 

I thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all yesterday. Thanks for all the hints about Accuphase brown cables, SqueezePad, ways to buy from Japan, split USB cables, and even suggestions to talk to a fella called SteveM who I would supposedly like. It's all appreciated.

 

Now, when it comes to the shoot-out I must admit I realised (or just re-assured myself) that comparing audio gear is hard, especially when we have some of the best bricks on the market. Great DACs will outshine good DACs when the rest of the spectrum is also great. If you pair the best with the best the jaw will surely fall. Unfortunately the system is only as good as its weakest link which in our case often was the recording. On top of that our sonic memory lasts less than an average song which makes the comparison objective only if we play the same one song all the time. Switching between songs can more likely show the deficiency of the recording rather than deficiency of the gear, and often this can be misleading. So ideally we should have played top quality song(s) as only the top contenders would reach the truly top level.

 

Also, as much as I trust my ears, I don't necessarily trust the processing tool between the ears to be completely objective. It simply gets used to something and expects to hear similar. When I entered JD's place seeing the bunch of eager enthusiasts awaiting the first tune like an Indian family awaits curry, I already had some predefined paradigm of great sound. Meitner which played first sounded so different to what I expected that I wanted to spend time eating spring rolls instead of hearing it. But those who work with a brain (and I do) know that brain seeks adjustment. And mine did quickly once I sat in the first row. Things started to make sense and the "different" became "awesome". But even then some DACs sounded lifeless the first time and when I heard them later I liked them a lot. I am sure the order of songs must have played a big role here. There was not even one DAC which made Santana's guitar sound well in his duet with JL Hooker so my assessment will be based on the best and not the worst memory of each DAC, knowing that much more time would need to be spent for a proper comparison.

 

As Thomo mentioned, the sound quality of today's DACs is fantastic and without having others to compare I would happily live with almost all of them. The differences are no longer in 20% category, they are more like 2%.

 

I disregarded Meitner initially and boy was I wrong. We had a chance to listen to it again later and it is a truly fantastic DAC, probably the most detailed of them all, piano sounded superb. I wish it generated a bit more space but this is me being ridiculously fussy.

 

Vitus was the best kid on the block in my view. Not by much but simply everything was great about it. Outstanding piece of engineering.

 

NAD was actually not bad at all. Very well controlled bass, very refined overall. What I missed about it was the "plankton" in the air that puts a smile on your face and makes your head nod. I think a bit of simple diy could add this warmth.

 

Killer DAC, I loved it instantly. I think it is a top performer (at least in 16bit category), really coherent and natural but it made me wonder how much of the greatness is associated with the ridiculously expensive Duelund caps placed on top of the chassis. It's a bit like watching a stripper with fake ****, you love it but still wonder how good she looked natural. The caps surely fit the beast very well though, great DAC.

 

Longdog, I think the only DAC with AKM chipset and quite frankly their application is great. We had a chance to listen to it again later and it is on the top shelf for sure. Very natural sound. I can't wait to compare it with "lampized" DEQ2496, maybe Dr Lampizator will learn something from UK boys (or maybe they copied him).

 

E DAC, this one is tricky. First I thought it was slow and mellow. I felt it was like my neighbour's dog, it has a very friendly owner but that's pretty much the only good thing about it. Then it was played second time and I had this WTF moment...like wow, that is actually awesome. Not sure if it was bad recording or vinegar chips nearby spoiling my fun the first time but I will only assess the second round because now I know the level it can reach. And this level is very very high. I would put it at the top with Vitus if not the fact that it went ballistic when given high rate DSD signal. 

 

AudioGD5 as all AudioGD products is hard to beat in bang for buck category. I thought it sounded very good with natural and refined tone. What I slightly missed was a punch and I think maybe a bit of diy would take it to another level. Still though, I think this is a VERY good product for its price.

 

SACD player (I think it was Musical Fidelity) used as DAC sounded great. I was actually quite surprised. I think it could have slightly better microdynamics but when I heard how much the owner paid for it I thought he scored a prom queen.

 

Vega...don't get me wrong here, this is still a great sounding DAC, but we are talking about $4K+ piece of kit. It sounded better than the look of its remote suggested but it did not sound good enough to put it near the big boys, it was immediately tiring. Combine it with all the upsampling magic in their advertisement and you get (maybe a bit unfair) picture of someone trying to sell us voodoo. Having said that, for someone with a very dark system with low sensitivity speakers I think it could work very well. It is a very good DAC, just not for active, OB or ESL systems.

 

Black Box DAC, excuse my lack of knowledge, I really did not write down the name. We connected it at the end and I heard myself grinding teeth while the others sobered up instantly. It was bad. Not the dynamics, soundstage or clarity, I did not even capture those elements. The lack of naturalism was overwhelming. We had a very well recorded song which reminded us that only top DACs can reach top level if you give them great recording. This black DAC played between Longdog and Meitner. Both sounded very well, detailed, natural, with male voice having a smoky harshness and a guitar having a nice metallic tone. The Black DAC decided to ignore the harshness and the tone and gave us something that sounded almost like a cover. This was the only DAC with its own relatively simple power supply and I want to think this was the reason. I want, but something tells me that the difference can't be that big because even this little PSU was connected via generator. I have no idea honestly, maybe we were too spoiled or maybe it was a faulty model. Maybe if we had managed to listen to my $20 android DAC we would have had some base to compare and I would not be so critical now. Not sure...

 

It's impossible not to be biased assessing your own stuff so I purposely omitted my new arrival HQ Audio Ref. All I can say is that it was the first DAC to make everyone stop talking for a moment and for me it's all I would have hoped for. I am also really glad that we managed to do a sanity check on digital vs analog volume control. Even if there is some difference it is pretty damn close. 

 

Finally, a few people asked me about the album I brought with me. It is a Manger's test collection called: Musik wie von einem anderen Stern. As you can see even CD version is not too bad: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/84025

 

Alternatively you can resort to this again   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I_T3XvzPaM

Edited May 17, 2015 by baMarek

[Guest BobbyD]

That was a great GTG!

Big thanks JD for hosting it so well and allowing us to play with your toys. And let's be clear, these toys are damn serious. What you did to make your system so transparent is very impressive and my wife will curse the day we met knowing that you gave me inspiration to spend more $$$.

I thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all yesterday. Thanks for all the hints about Accuphase brown cables, SqueezePad, ways to buy from Japan, split USB cables, and even suggestions to talk to a fella called SteveM who I would supposedly like. It's all appreciated.

Now, when it comes to the shoot-out I must admit I realised (or just re-assured myself) that comparing audio gear is hard, especially when we have some of the best bricks on the market. Great DACs will outshine good DACs when the rest of the spectrum is also great. If you pair the best with the best the jaw will surely fall. Unfortunately the system is only as good as its weakest link which in our case often was the recording. On top of that our sonic memory lasts less than an average song which makes the comparison objective only if we play the same one song all the time. Switching between songs can more likely show the deficiency of the recording rather than deficiency of the gear, and often this can be misleading. So ideally we should have played top quality song(s) as only the top contenders would reach the truly top level.

Also, as much as I trust my ears, I don't necessarily trust the processing tool between the ears to be completely objective. It simply gets used to something and expects to hear similar. When I entered JD's place seeing the bunch of eager enthusiasts awaiting the first tune like an Indian family awaits curry, I already had some predefined paradigm of great sound. Meitner which played first sounded so different to what I expected that I wanted to spend time eating spring rolls instead of hearing it. But those who work with a brain (and I do) know that brain seeks adjustment. And mine did quickly once I sat in the first row. Things started to make sense and the "different" became "awesome". But even then some DACs sounded lifeless the first time and when I heard them later I liked them a lot. I am sure the order of songs must have played a big role here. There was not even one DAC which made Santana's guitar sound well in his duet with JL Hooker so my assessment will be based on the best and not the worst memory of each DAC, knowing that much more time would need to be spent for a proper comparison.

As Thomo mentioned, the sound quality of today's DACs is fantastic and without having others to compare I would happily live with almost all of them. The differences are no longer in 20% category, they are more like 2%.

I disregarded Meitner initially and boy was I wrong. We had a chance to listen to it again later and it is a truly fantastic DAC, probably the most detailed of them all, piano sounded superb. I wish it generated a bit more space but this is me being ridiculously fussy.

Vitus was the best kid on the block in my view. Not by much but simply everything was great about it. Outstanding piece of engineering.

NAD was actually not bad at all. Very well controlled bass, very refined overall. What I missed about it was the "plankton" in the air that puts a smile on your face and makes your head nod. I think a bit of simple diy could add this warmth.

Killer DAC, I loved it instantly. I think it is a top performer (at least in 16bit category), really coherent and natural but it made me wonder how much of the greatness is associated with the ridiculously expensive Duelund caps placed on top of the chassis. It's a bit like watching a stripper with fake ****, you love it but still wonder how good she looked natural. The caps surely fit the beast very well though, great DAC.

Longdog, I think the only DAC with AKM chipset and quite frankly their application is great. We had a chance to listen to it again later and it is on the top shelf for sure. Very natural sound. I can't wait to compare it with "lampized" DEQ2496, maybe Dr Lampizator will learn something from UK boys (or maybe they copied him).

E DAC, this one is tricky. First I thought it was slow and mellow. I felt it was like my neighbour's dog, it has a very friendly owner but that's pretty much the only good thing about it. Then it was played second time and I had this WTF moment...like wow, that is actually awesome. Not sure if it was bad recording or vinegar chips nearby spoiling my fun the first time but I will only assess the second round because now I know the level it can reach. And this level is very very high. I would put it at the top with Vitus if not the fact that it went ballistic when given high rate DSD signal.

AudioGD5 as all AudioGD products is hard to beat in bang for buck category. I thought it sounded very good with natural and refined tone. What I slightly missed was a punch and I think maybe a bit of diy would take it to another level. Still though, I think this is a VERY good product for its price.

SACD player (I think it was Musical Fidelity) used as DAC sounded great. I was actually quite surprised. I think it could have slightly better microdynamics but when I heard how much the owner paid for it I thought he scored a prom queen.

Vega...don't get me wrong here, this is still a great sounding DAC, but we are talking about $4K+ piece of kit. It sounded better than the look of its remote suggested but it did not sound good enough to put it near the big boys, it was immediately tiring. Combine it with all the upsampling magic in their advertisement and you get (maybe a bit unfair) picture of someone trying to sell us voodoo. Having said that, for someone with a very dark system with low sensitivity speakers I think it could work very well. It is a very good DAC, just not for active, OB or ESL systems.

Black Box DAC, excuse my lack of knowledge, I really did not write down the name. We connected it at the end and I heard myself grinding teeth while the others sobered up instantly. It was bad. Not the dynamics, soundstage or clarity, I did not even capture those elements. The lack of naturalism was overwhelming. We had a very well recorded song which reminded us that only top DACs can reach top level if you give them great recording. This black DAC played between Longdog and Meitner. Both sounded very well, detailed, natural, with male voice having a smoky harshness and a guitar having a nice metallic tone. The Black DAC decided to ignore the harshness and the tone and gave us something that sounded almost like a cover. This was the only DAC with its own relatively simple power supply and I want to think this was the reason. I want, but something tells me that the difference can't be that big because even this little PSU was connected via generator. I have no idea honestly, maybe we were too spoiled or maybe it was a faulty model. Maybe if we had managed to listen to my $20 android DAC we would have had some base to compare and I would not be so critical now. Not sure...

It's impossible not to be biased assessing your own stuff so I purposely omitted my new arrival HQ Audio Ref. All I can say is that it was the first DAC to make everyone stop talking for a moment and for me it's all I would have hoped for. I am also really glad that we managed to do a sanity check on digital vs analog volume control. Even if there is some difference it is pretty damn close.

Finally, a few people asked me about the album I brought with me. It is a Manger's test collection called: Musik wie von einem anderen Stern. As you can see even CD version is not too bad: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/84025

Alternatively you can resort to this again

Hi Marek,

A very good review of the day.

I can confirm that your HQ Audio Ref was one of my favourite Dac's on the day and gave the wow factor. Definitely in my top 3.

Like yourself, I am biased to my own Dac (Audio Synergy E Dac) so will not discuss its performance other than to add that I generally turn it on about 30 to 60 minutes before use so the transformers and caps get up to optimal operating condition (other valvaphiles will understand what I mean) so the longer it was on, the better it got :-) .

I will definitely check out the recording you listed.

Again, great job by JD on the day...

Edited May 17, 2015 by BobbyD

[thoglette]

 

Black Box DAC, excuse my lack of knowledge, I really did not write down the name. We connected it at the end and I heard myself grinding teeth while the others sobered up instantly. It was bad. Not the dynamics, soundstage or clarity, I did not even capture those elements. The lack of naturalism was overwhelming. We had a very well recorded song which reminded us that only top DACs can reach top level if you give them great recording. This black DAC played between Longdog and Meitner. Both sounded very well, detailed, natural, with male voice having a smoky harshness and a guitar having a nice metallic tone. The Black DAC decided to ignore the harshness and the tone and gave us something that sounded almost like a cover. This was the only DAC with its own relatively simple power supply and I want to think this was the reason. I want, but something tells me that the difference can't be that big because even this little PSU was connected via generator. I have no idea honestly, maybe we were too spoiled or maybe it was a faulty model. Maybe if we had managed to listen to my $20 android DAC we would have had some base to compare and I would not be so critical now. Not sure...

 

That'd be my Geek Pulse (base model).  I'm actually glad it was treated as a "black box" as there's been a fair bit of hype around it. I was expecting it to be blown out of the water by the better DACs present, but was hoping for a slightly better reception. :-) Cost was c.$250 so comparisons with $20 USB DAC are not unfair

 

As I noted elsewhere it's not made it into the main system at home, for the same reasons that prevented me attending yesterday.  So I'm still don't have any proper personal impressions of it.

 

I'll certainly be looking to add a better power supply - and hope to bring it for a rematch at a future GTG.

 

ps - thanks JDWest for putting the event on

Edited May 18, 2015 by thoglette

[JDWest]

Good review baMarek, Thanks for putting the effort into that. Been typing my own summary for ages but getting paranoid about disclaimers, upsetting people etc. and now even which thread to post on. Think I'll use the DAC shootout thread. Maybe you should copy your's across there too. I think the hijack is over 

 

Very good point about having a different impression on the 2nd listen. You are not alone with that.  Who knows, maybe those acoustic revive thingies started working on our brains after more time in the room. Maybe I'll turn them off next time, just in case.

 

I actually thought our 2 reference songs were good quality recordings...until you put your's on  .  There are certainly a lot worse in my collection.

 

thoglette, if we choose the right day/time for you to pick up the Geek Pulse, perhaps you can stay for a listen with a linear power supply that I have on hand.

 

Cheers,

 

JD

[baMarek]

JD, good point about putting my scribbles in a shootout thread. I’m only worried that a few people will start throwing punches at me. And really they should not because almost all DACs were very good and the differences are relatively easy to pick up in your system but I am sure in majority of households it would not be the case. The same about your recording, Santana was not ideal but Paul Simon was perfectly fine.

 

Thoglette, I did not mean to discredit, I only wanted to present the difference in class. I actually thought your DAC was much more expensive as someone mentioned its bigger brother was a very pricey toy. Again, if we had a chance to put it against something around the same price point, maybe I would have praised your DAC. Playing it next to over 20 times more expensive machines made it sound very coloured. I am happy to give you my $60 Sabre DAC from Hifimediy for a week to compare and get some feeling about it. It outshines many DAC under $500 so it should be a good comparison.

[pasadena]

Apologies for the edit...Posted in DAC shoutout thread......

Thanks.

Edited May 18, 2015 by pasadena

[wolster]

@@pasadena

 

Check out the other thread for much more info.

[pasadena]

Yes, I found it after I posted. Will post the above in other thread.

Cheers

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nzlowie]

Hi all,

Any interest in another get together? I've been into audio for years but now I'm really getting into it more as i slow down in life.

I know what sounds good to me, but knowing how others arrive at great sound is also valuable. I don't do shops.... its hard to put together a system just on recommendations.

What I've ended up with is a laptop driving a Klein DAC to a Golden Tube SE40 (Weston Topaz KT120 in transit!) finished with some Troels Gravesen DTQWT speakers. I really need to start thinking about cables but i don't believe in all the BS about mega dollar cables.

So do you Perth guys get together often or just when someone throws the idea out?

Dave

[baMarek]

Hi Dave,

There are not many official GTGs and the last one I remember was the one JDWest organised (big thanks for that again John). There are however a few impromptu gatherings which may not be publicly advertised. Sometimes you can see commenta about them in topic specific threads and sometimes people just email each other. I am relatively new resident of Perth and found the local folks very friendly. I suggest you just make a comment that you are interested in testing something and it will naturally lead to a meeting either at yours or someone else's place.

If you are after cables I can happily give you mine to test. I ended up with pure silver everywhere and from my source such cables would not break a bank. You may or may not like them but at least you will be able to tick the box next to silver. You are also welcome to test my squeezebox which should be much better than any laptop. I say should because obviously synergy is the key.

[nzlowie]

Thanks Marek

I'll wait till the Topaz turns up and i get a feel for the sound, then i might take you up on your offer.

So thanks again for the offer, would be good to try before buy. Now i just need to look into the squeezebox, heard about them but not much else....

Cheers Dave

[BaileyAV]

hey guys.

 

full disclosure i am a hifi dealer in perth (im a custom installer not a retail shopfront) but i will be changing my brands a bit and id be interested in a dac-out. i just stopped dealing devialet so im now having to use different dacs/pre-amp/amps etc etc rather than the all in one package and ive never actually heard that many as i dont know that many people with different hifi set ups.

 

Id be interested in a pure comparison meet up no actual desire to turn it into marketing.

 

im trying to get my hands on a lampizator dac

 

on top of that i just got into electronic design and im in the process of trying to make some cheap regulators so that i can use them in my custom media server so if it actually works out id love to have a steamer/server meet up as well!!

[rockeater]

hey guys.

 

full disclosure i am a hifi dealer in perth (im a custom installer not a retail shopfront) but i will be changing my brands a bit and id be interested in a dac-out. i just stopped dealing devialet so im now having to use different dacs/pre-amp/amps etc etc rather than the all in one package and ive never actually heard that many as i dont know that many people with different hifi set ups.

 

Id be interested in a pure comparison meet up no actual desire to turn it into marketing.

 

im trying to get my hands on a lampizator dac

 

on top of that i just got into electronic design and im in the process of trying to make some cheap regulators so that i can use them in my custom media server so if it actually works out id love to have a steamer/server meet up as well!!

I have just ordered both Lampucera and Lampizator.

Also have newly arrived 24/96 Behringer upsampler that Åukasz Fikus (Lampizator) raved so much about.

If you are still after one to check out, ask me in a couple of weeks. Should be here by then.

I am in Wanneroo.

Cheers

Roman

[baMarek]

I'm always up for a session with DACs.

Roman, I have heard lampucera in over 20 different versions, I've got DEQ2496 with tube output added by Lukasz and I have also modified my DCX numerous times until I killed it . We should catch up.

Marek