PSE144

[jkn]

Hi Bme

I hope That 300Hz is going to work with your 21" for my Dayton's 300Hz is definitely too high.The 300Hz crossover point in my system was determinate after playing with AE TD18+ which could easily go up to 450-+.

It would be awesome to try your 21" with my system see how good it is.I have tried a lot of drivers and  still not quiet there yet.

Jiri 

[Malcolm]

 

.I have tried a lot of drivers and  still not quiet there yet.

Jiri 

Are you missing some PHL goodness

 

Maybe get Paul to draw up a Synegy bass horn ,group effort ?

 

Cheers

Edited March 25, 2015 by Malcolm

[Nada]

,....... 240Hz seams to be the max crossover for this driver in my setup. 

 

Thanks for sharing your adventure Jiri. 

 

I wonder why your only getting up to 240Hz? As a beginner I dont get whats going on  in your system as the Dayton 18" Ultimax looks good for going up past 400Hz from the propaganda:  Frequency Response 19 - 500 Hz

 

[davewantsmoore]

Maybe get Paul to draw up a Synegy bass horn ,group effort ?

 

I'm still not clear what you mean by "synergy" bass horn?    

[Paul Spencer]

I was wondering the same thing. I think Mal is talking about an arrangement with woofers mounted onto the horn also.

[jkn]

Thanks for sharing your adventure Jiri. 

 

I wonder why your only getting up to 240Hz? As a beginner I dont get whats going on  in your system as the Dayton 18" Ultimax looks good for going up past 400Hz from the propaganda:  Frequency Response 19 - 500 Hz

 

 

 

Hi Nada

I'm also a beginner so you guys correct me is I write something which doesn't make sense.

 

There are a lot of manufactures which use Frequency Response or  Usable Frequency on the specification sheets which are much higher 

That the frequency in actual use >in practice or as recommended crossover point.

My JBL stated Usable frequency up to 800Hz , PHL-1000Hz ans so on...

They do obviously play that high and usually measure up the frequency pretty good but simply they do not sound the best when cross that high.

I do believe and you guys correct me if I'm wrong but in professional application most of the drivers could be cross a bit higher then in home-hifi 

setup.

[jkn]

Are you missing some PHL goodness

 

Maybe get Paul to draw up a Synegy bass horn ,group effort ?

 

Cheers

I Actually do.If I had the 7030 model I would never sell it.I had the 7010 which was pretty good as well.Until today I have never heard better drivers in frequency -+35Hz-200Hz .Someone mentioned that the PHL 18" are nothing special but to my ears  they are incredible

but pretty much impossible to get.My was 2 years on order!! then I gave up

Nevertheless they would not suit the PSE 144 but again I would never sell it.

I'm still thinking about the 15'ultimax Dayton's they just might be a good match for 3 way with PSE  

Edited March 25, 2015 by JiriAU

[davewantsmoore]

I was wondering the same thing. I think Mal is talking about an arrangement with woofers mounted onto the horn also.

 

Right.   That's the only thing I could think he might mean too.    That would be cool lookin' ....  but it's probably only half an octave more below the PSE-144 that the directivity, and 'point source' matter enough to make it worthwhile.

Edited March 25, 2015 by davewantsmoore

[Malcolm]

Nevertheless they would not suit the PSE 144 but again I would never sell it.

Why wouldn't the PHL's suit the PSE ?

[jkn]

Hi Malcolm

By memory I think they were the best sounding up to 200Hz.I used them up to 250Hz (which work fine) then went back to 190Hz to suit my previous speakers. 300Hz was already too high on 7010 model.

Jiri

[Nada]

I was wondering the same thing. I think Mal is talking about an arrangement with woofers mounted onto the horn also.

 

I wonder how large a synergy horn needs to be to get down to say 40Hz?

 

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/fullrange.pdf

[Malcolm]

I wonder how large a synergy horn needs to be to get down to say 40Hz?

 

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/fullrange.pdf

You wouldn't need to go so low with a synergy . Use a tapped horn like a T20 20hz -60hz .

 

I was thinking of building something like the lower section of the SH69 . Talking to Paul if I get this right . Is a bandpass bass arrangment ,you could build it but its going to be complex and mighten be much better than a dynamic driver setup .

Paul has an idea for a FLH to cover the 80hz -400hz using a 15" .

 

In Melbourne , Sunday theres going to be a Danley expo running .

 

Cheers

 

Cheers

[davewantsmoore]

I wonder how large a synergy horn needs to be to get down to say 40Hz?

 

Danely have the Jericho 90, which does -10dB @ 40ish.    It's mouth is 1.5m x 1m  (PSE is 90cm x 60cm).....   it's got 6x 18" drivers in a folded horn of about 1.5m long.

 

 

.... but for "coverage pattern" benefits (which is the big thing for such a horn at home) ..... you can't affect below the frequency where the room is smaller than a wavelength of sound.    So having a separate bass speaker  (horn, box, whatever)  is no issue.

 

.... it would be nice if the horn reached down low enough to meet with a subwoofer   (ie. about 100hz) .....  but the size goes up a lot of each octave we go down.   200-300 is about the best compromise IMO.

[davewantsmoore]

I was thinking of building something like the lower section of the SH69 . Talking to Paul if I get this right . Is a bandpass bass arrangment ,you could build it but its going to be complex

 

Yes, that's right.    It is quite complex to both design and build....  and the only benefit of doing it in the same horn as the mid/treble is the coverage pattern down to where your room takes over.   This is about 150-250hz for most people at home....  so the benefit over the pse144 in that regard is iffy.

[Paul Spencer]

Hi Nada

I'm also a beginner so you guys correct me is I write something which doesn't make sense.

 

There are a lot of manufactures which use Frequency Response or  Usable Frequency on the specification sheets which are much higher 

That the frequency in actual use >in practice or as recommended crossover point.

My JBL stated Usable frequency up to 800Hz , PHL-1000Hz ans so on...

They do obviously play that high and usually measure up the frequency pretty good but simply they do not sound the best when cross that high.

I do believe and you guys correct me if I'm wrong but in professional application most of the drivers could be cross a bit higher then in home-hifi 

setup.

 

In pro audio, the subs are not asked to run as high as a bass box for the PSE horn. The subs are much further away and the crossover is determined more by the system configuration than the limits of the drivers.

 

I wonder how large a front loaded horn needs to be to get down to say 40Hz?

 

It depends on a number of factors but the simple answer is "really big!"

 

Some of the factors include:

• bandwidth
• smoothness of frequency response
• how well it needs to behave out of band
• loading - a corner loaded horn is smaller
• total piston area of drivers
• size of the rear chamber
• size of the throat chamber
• folded or straight
• single horn or multiple with mouths combined
• suitability of the driver for horn loading
• compression ratio (which itself depends on other factors)

Making a practical bass horn that extends lower than 80 Hz generally means reducing the top end extension, using a folded horn and loading into the corner. Quickly you end up with a box that won't run above say 80 Hz. Actually, a lot of bass horns tend to diverge into 3 groups:

 

1. Straight front loaded horns with ~ 80 Hz extension. Extension is compromised primarily.

2. Sub horns compromised in bandwidth to achieve 20 - 40 Hz extension on a corner loaded folded horn box. They perform a similar function to home audio subs but with lower distortion and higher output.

3. In between options like a J horn or quarter pie horn.

[statman]

Ive heard a stereo straight bass horn with 8 foot by 8 foot mouth and about 30 foot long, was set in wall and extended into garden. Spectacular, but once i got over the shock of the dynamics, it wasn't that accurate. You knew you were listening to a horn, not the recording. I would have got tired of it very quickly. The AE18 in sealed box under the PSE144 is accurate, tight, and realistic, and it blends very coherently.  A tapped horn from 20- 80Hz would be nice, but go higher than that with a bass horn and you will get muddle, it may sound nice to some of you, but it will still be muddle. IMO. However, Im still astounded how the 144 doesn't sound like a horn, so maybe there is a low- midbass design that will be accurate, but it will be unconventional and afaik hasnt been built yet.

[hum4god]

i am working on a 50/60hz  j horn right now , i finally figured out how to use hornresponse , what a great program

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[acg]

Ive heard a stereo straight bass horn with 8 foot by 8 foot mouth and about 30 foot long, was set in wall and extended into garden. Spectacular, but once i got over the shock of the dynamics, it wasn't that accurate. You knew you were listening to a horn, not the recording. I would have got tired of it very quickly. The AE18 in sealed box under the PSE144 is accurate, tight, and realistic, and it blends very coherently.  A tapped horn from 20- 80Hz would be nice, but go higher than that with a bass horn and you will get muddle, it may sound nice to some of you, but it will still be muddle. IMO. However, Im still astounded how the 144 doesn't sound like a horn, so maybe there is a low- midbass design that will be accurate, but it will be unconventional and afaik hasnt been built yet.

I have reservations about many of those over the top straight horns (never heard one though)...I think that it is too difficult to make the horn itself strong enough and adequately damped so that it does not add its own flavour to the sound (not saying that it can't be done, just that it is extremely difficult) Plus at those lengths (circa 10m) the sides are close to parallel which is probably compounded if they are made square not round thus setting up resonances. Maybe I'm wrong, but by your account Statman, maybe I am right.

But I reckon two bass channels below the PSE would be great, maybe three if you are game.

[Malcolm]

maybe three if you are game.

Only if your limited in octave range

[davewantsmoore]

I have reservations about many of those over the top straight horns (never heard one though)...I think that it is too difficult to make the horn itself strong enough and adequately damped so that it does not add its own flavour to the sound (not saying that it can't be done, just that it is extremely difficult) Plus at those lengths (circa 10m) the sides are close to parallel which is probably compounded if they are made square not round thus setting up resonances. Maybe I'm wrong, but by your account Statman, maybe I am right

 

It depends on the frequency of interest as to whether square horn, or parallel sides, has any effect.

 

When we see a very long horn for a particular low frequency extension ..... this tells us that they're using a very small driver.

[Paul Spencer]

Ive heard a stereo straight bass horn with 8 foot by 8 foot mouth and about 30 foot long, was set in wall and extended into garden. Spectacular, but once i got over the shock of the dynamics, it wasn't that accurate. You knew you were listening to a horn, not the recording. I would have got tired of it very quickly. The AE18 in sealed box under the PSE144 is accurate, tight, and realistic, and it blends very coherently.  A tapped horn from 20- 80Hz would be nice, but go higher than that with a bass horn and you will get muddle, it may sound nice to some of you, but it will still be muddle. IMO. However, Im still astounded how the 144 doesn't sound like a horn, so maybe there is a low- midbass design that will be accurate, but it will be unconventional and afaik hasnt been built yet.

 

A front loaded bass horn with those numbers has the potential to be the ideal case if all the right choices are made. Even if they were and the horn itself was ideal, there could be issues with the room and the integration that might account for the muddled sound. The system in question could in fact have the potential for better bass than any of us has ever heard. In reality, often the bottle neck is that many audiophiles are not willing to do everything that is required to correctly integrate their horn and get the most out of it. in this particular case, there is potential for room resonances and time/phase alignment problems - a beast such as this requires room correction and DSP

 

Nothing surprises me with horns - there is equal potential for the room, the integration and the horn itself to cause problems. It's unfortunate to go to the trouble of building such an extreme horn and then not enjoy something more than the initial wow.

 

I have reservations about many of those over the top straight horns (never heard one though)...I think that it is too difficult to make the horn itself strong enough and adequately damped so that it does not add its own flavour to the sound (not saying that it can't be done, just that it is extremely difficult) Plus at those lengths (circa 10m) the sides are close to parallel which is probably compounded if they are made square not round thus setting up resonances. Maybe I'm wrong, but by your account Statman, maybe I am right.

But I reckon two bass channels below the PSE would be great, maybe three if you are game.

 

I think I'd consider a beast like that easier than what you've undertaken! Bricks and concrete over the tyranny and tedium of the lathe any day!

 

I agree with you that it could be something special or at least something worth trying. A straight 80 Hz horn with a 50 Hz J horn with an array of 20 Hz sub horns. Coming up soon is a proof of concept sub horn using a pair of 8" sub drivers. Small drivers means a scaled down horn with potential to stack vertically (floor to ceiling mouth) or to get creative with placement in a room. The idea is to create a "hide it from your wife" sub horn. In my room I have a 2.4m long sub horn hidden under the floor.

 

My sub horn illustrates well the importance of integration. In its raw state, it sounds like turd. Once integrated, it disappears and becomes 'invisible." In its raw untamed state it has a particular personality and lots of things people could comment about. Once integrated with DSP and room correction, it is +/- 1.5 dB in the 3 listening positions with ultra low distortion even at 20 Hz. Then it has no personality at all. It does sound a bit different to conventional ported and sealed subs. The bottom end tends to sound cleaner than a sealed sub and generally it would take a number of 18" ported subs to try to do the same job and their ports tend to chuff away. So with the horn you might tend to hear the absence of port compression and turbulence. It also sounds more dynamic and unrestrained. More likely to surprise you. I believe you can get the same result with sealed and ported subs but it just doesn't tend to happen. Perhaps the really satisfying thing about a bass horn is what you get for what you pay. With conventional subs, you pay for the performance with money. You need good drivers and good amps and they cost. With a horn sub, you pay with this cheap stuff called MDF.

 

Sorry about the OT!

[Malcolm]

. Coming up soon is a proof of concept sub horn using a pair of 8" sub drivers. Small drivers means a scaled down horn with potential to stack vertically (floor to ceiling mouth) or to get creative with placement in a room. The idea is to create a "hide it from your wife" sub horn.

We have a driver Paul that could have a very good performance/price ratio .Just need to find out if we can get it through our normal channels

Edited March 26, 2015 by Malcolm

[Bigmattyevans]

Hi Bme

I hope That 300Hz is going to work with your 21" for my Dayton's 300Hz is definitely too high.The 300Hz crossover point in my system was determinate after playing with AE TD18+ which could easily go up to 450-+.

It would be awesome to try your 21" with my system see how good it is.I have tried a lot of drivers and  still not quiet there yet.

Jiri 

 

Hi Jiri,

 

Feel free to come around and have a listen to them at my place. Might give you an idea if they would work better than what you have already or not and if they were serious contenders I would probably let you borrow them for a short while. Just Pm me if interested.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Bigmattyevans

[jkn]

Thanks Matt that would be great .Instead of borrowing your cabs I'm thinking to bring my DEQX do a quick setup and that would give me idea how good is the driver.

It would take me around 45 minutes to set it all up.

Jiri

If you are short of amps/cables I have few spares I can bring

Edited March 26, 2015 by JiriAU

[jkn]

Just a little update

I have set up  AE TD 18 + bass drivers about two weeks ego so I have had a few weeks to listen. I have to say that I do like the driver a lot.

I cross it at 350HZ with the PS144 and it has been pleasure to listen .It has much more details and speed then the Dayton 18.

I just thought to clarified this as I don’t want to mislead people who are reading my thread.

They are both very good drivers but for more details listening I would choose the AE over the Dayton. If someone like  like 20z notes without much boost but lees detail the Dayton would be better choice.