7.2.4 Speaker placement

[Camo1151990]

Hey guys,

I have my home theatre at 6m long by 4.8m wide. I am planning on having 2 rows of seating one at ground level and another on a 500mm platform. The back row of couches will sit roughly 4.5m from eye level to the screen and the front row will be about 3m from eye level to screen. With regards to side surrounds would you place them in between the two lounges or inline with one and make that spot the sweet spot for the room? The lounges will be slightly off centre so one seat will be dead middle of the room. I have a JVC X5000 Projector and 120' 16:9 screen. The surrounds are Krix Dynamix surrounds. I haven't yet chosen ceiling speakers for atoms as of yet though. If there is any info I have missed please let me know.

Regards 

Cameron

[hopefullguy]

my platform is only about 250mm but i dont have steps to mine.. i have a bulk head between my 2 rows so i run 2 sets of side surrounds, 1 inline with each row of seats.

my 1st row is 3m from a 123" screen and the 2nd row 4m from the screen. i wish i had a 130" screen as the 4m has no real immersion.. 4.5m is starting to get too far away and i feel you will definitely be sitting in the front row.

[Camo1151990]

Thanks mate, how do you find sitting behind the front row with only 250mm still plenty of clearance that they aren't in the way of the screen. The further distance is more for the missus and others that don't like the immersiveness of being that 3m from a large screen. I will more than likely always sit in the front row but the wife has tested and likes being further back. 

I assume you run no rear surrounds at all than? How do you find it only having the side surrounds for each? Are you running atmos by any chance? 

Thanks for your opinions 

[hopefullguy]

my setup is not your conventional HT i guess (i actually call it my "homely theatre" ) its all 2nd hand gear and totally diy.. paint, pj mount, screen, risers, speaker stands, purposely srounged low back seating etc etc.

due to a structual double brick, steel reinforced aint going nowhere bulk head i bought an older denon avr4308. this has speaker connections for 2 sets of side surrounds plus 2 rears. so i was running 9 speakers and 2 subs (y splitter). worked grat but my 2 subs (15" front placement and 10" behind rear seat) was just below expectations.

so i moved the 4308 to my 2nd ht room and got a denon avr4311 with audyssey xt32 that runs 2 individual subs.. i still connect the 2 side surrounds in series so 4 speakers to 2 connectors. with some tweaking it works, slightly below the other denon but the bass is important as i only watch movies or ps3 gaming.. nothing else.

anyway.. yes i find my riser high enough as i have low back seating so that no rear sound is blocked to the front seats.. ii dont know how high your ceilings are (mine are 3.1m) you can check out the amazing builds on this forum, especially "709", as most have your riser style.

at 3m it is great immersion but be aware of how high you mount the screen. mine must be at 810mm but from use 600/650 would be much better and stll easily visible from the back row, especially as your riser is higher. i suggest projecting onto the wall to determine mounting height visible from all seating before mounting the screen.

i dont run atmos. personal choice, physical room design, seating either side of the bulk head that hangs down 800mm, cost of changeover and just dont need it. but i hear many love it.

oh.. 2 rows of seating get 2 subs.. 1 row of seating get 2 subs.. 1 chair get 2 subs.. get the idea? :-)

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by hopefullguy

[Krix Loudspeakers]

On 8/19/2017 at 10:45 PM, Camo1151990 said:

Hey guys,

I have my home theatre at 6m long by 4.8m wide. I am planning on having 2 rows of seating one at ground level and another on a 500mm platform. The back row of couches will sit roughly 4.5m from eye level to the screen and the front row will be about 3m from eye level to screen. With regards to side surrounds would you place them in between the two lounges or inline with one and make that spot the sweet spot for the room? The lounges will be slightly off centre so one seat will be dead middle of the room. I have a JVC X5000 Projector and 120' 16:9 screen. The surrounds are Krix Dynamix surrounds. I haven't yet chosen ceiling speakers for atoms as of yet though. If there is any info I have missed please let me know.

Regards 

Cameron

Hi Cameron,

It's a question that gets asked quite often, and one that can sometimes come down to your own preference. Normally it's recommended to pick one reference listening position (the sweet spot) and then do all speaker positioning off of that seat. So in your case this would mean putting the side surrounds close to in line with this row.

I came across the same issue in my own home theatre, where my reference listening position was in the front row. So placing the side surrounds at 90 degrees had them a fair way in front of the back row, not ideal for those viewers. What I decided on was placing them at 110 degrees to the front row, which is still within the Dolby spec (90-110), and meant they were ever-so-slightly in front of the second row (in line with the front of the chairs). Not too much of a compromise considering. If I had put them in line with the back row it would have been just a little too far back for the main listening position.

Another option some people have used in the past is to have one pair for each row and hook them up in an array. They will play the same feed, but you gain better coverage across the rows. When Atmos compatible processors are released that allow for assignable extra side rows, then this could be re-wired to allow them to be discrete pairs. Some higher end processors can likely do this already, but are more expensive than normal AVR's.

In regard to Atmos speakers, the Atmospherix AS and A20 share the same driver complement as the current Dynamix, so are a great match together.

I hope this helps, please let me know if you have any questions.

Cheers,

Michael
 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Krix Loudspeakers

[Camo1151990]

40 minutes ago, Krix Loudspeakers said:

Hi Cameron,

It's a question that gets asked quite often, and one that can sometimes come down to your own preference. Normally it's recommended to pick one reference listening position (the sweet spot) and then do all speaker positioning off of that seat. So in your case this would mean putting the side surrounds close to in line with this row.

I came across the same issue in my own home theatre, where my reference listening position was in the front row. So placing the side surrounds at 90 degrees had them a fair way in front of the back row, not ideal for those viewers. What I decided on was placing them at 110 degrees to the front row, which is still within the Dolby spec (90-110), and meant they were ever-so-slightly in front of the second row (in line with the front of the chairs). Not too much of a compromise considering. If I had put them in line with the back row it would have been just a little too far back for the main listening position.

Another option some people have used in the past is to have one pair for each row and hook them up in an array. They will play the same feed, but you gain better coverage across the rows. When Atmos compatible processors are released that allow for assignable extra side rows, then this could be re-wired to allow them to be discrete pairs. Some higher end processors can likely do this already, but are more expensive than normal AVR's.

In regard to Atmos speakers, the Atmospherix AS and A20 share the same driver complement as the current Dynamix, so are a great match together.

I hope this helps, please let me know if you have any questions.

Cheers,

Michael
 

Thanks Michael. That gives me some ideas. If i run with 2 sets of side surrounds would you still have the rear surrounds? Also placement of the 4 atmos speakers in this scenario you really need to pick a spot and go from there don't you? I am happy to do that and it will be my seat in the front row but also wanting it to sound as good as possible for everyone using the room. 

Thanks again Michael

[Krix Loudspeakers]

2 hours ago, Camo1151990 said:

Thanks Michael. That gives me some ideas. If i run with 2 sets of side surrounds would you still have the rear surrounds? Also placement of the 4 atmos speakers in this scenario you really need to pick a spot and go from there don't you? I am happy to do that and it will be my seat in the front row but also wanting it to sound as good as possible for everyone using the room. 

Thanks again Michael

Hi Cameron,

No problems at all. If you added rear surrounds they would at least be "discrete"... in terms of being given their own independent feed. In longer rooms such as yours there is a benefit in adding rear surrounds as it fills out the back of the room. In an Atmos configuration this means you'll get the sound coming from all directions rather than having a hole at the back, so if possible it's something I'd recommend. It is good to have a little distance between your rears seats and these speakers though if possible, and one main reason for people not utilising rears is that their seating is right up on the back wall and they are just too close.

With regard to the array option, running them in parallel could be too much of a load for your AVR, so hooking them up in series would be the way to go. If you are running a power amp and have some spare channels on that then running a splitter from the AVR pre-out is another option. Keep in mind with this array option that the speakers will be getting the same signal (not discrete), you also won't be able to adjust levels individually and you also won't be able to EQ them separately. So it's a bit more of a technical option and something you could always chat to your dealer about if unsure. With all these options just make sure your AVR/processor/amp has the capability to run the number of speakers you require.

With placement, yes it's better/easier to pick one position and then do your angles from there. As you mentioned, it can be tricky as you want a great experience for as many viewers as possible. I've found with many room designs that you can get fairly close to spec for both rows with a small amount of compromise.

Cheers,

Michael

 

[Camo1151990]

44 minutes ago, Krix Loudspeakers said:

Hi Cameron,

No problems at all. If you added rear surrounds they would at least be "discrete"... in terms of being given their own independent feed. In longer rooms such as yours there is a benefit in adding rear surrounds as it fills out the back of the room. In an Atmos configuration this means you'll get the sound coming from all directions rather than having a hole at the back, so if possible it's something I'd recommend. It is good to have a little distance between your rears seats and these speakers though if possible, and one main reason for people not utilising rears is that their seating is right up on the back wall and they are just too close.

With regard to the array option, running them in parallel could be too much of a load for your AVR, so hooking them up in series would be the way to go. If you are running a power amp and have some spare channels on that then running a splitter from the AVR pre-out is another option. Keep in mind with this array option that the speakers will be getting the same signal (not discrete), you also won't be able to adjust levels individually and you also won't be able to EQ them separately. So it's a bit more of a technical option and something you could always chat to your dealer about if unsure. With all these options just make sure your AVR/processor/amp has the capability to run the number of speakers you require.

With placement, yes it's better/easier to pick one position and then do your angles from there. As you mentioned, it can be tricky as you want a great experience for as many viewers as possible. I've found with many room designs that you can get fairly close to spec for both rows with a small amount of compromise.

Cheers,

Michael

 

Thanks again Michael for all of your knowledge and advice. I am using a Marantz SR7010 with an Emotiva XPA-5 to run the extra height channels and was planning on using it for the front stage. By taking the load of the front stage off the AVR should it take the extra 2 Dynamix in series or would I be better off leaving the AVR to do the front stage and use the spare channels on the XPA-5 to do those extra side surrounds?

I will have the rear seats about 1200mm from the rear wall and think I would definitely benefit from rear surrounds. Looks like I may be investing in another pair of Dynamix haha.

thanks again for any advice you have. 

FYI I have already purchased the Neuphonix and Epicentrix for the front stage with 2 sets of Dynamix and 2 Seismix 3 Subwoofers.

[hopefullguy]

in my room 6.5m x 4m x 3.1m high i run rears. some people seem to think rears are a waste of time.. i dont and in your room size with 2 rows of seating i would definately have them.

as for the 2 sets of side surrounds mine are in series (technically forming a 16 ohm load.. 2 sets pf 8 ohm klipsch) which works fine with my denon 4311. if in parallel it would be 4 ohm load and althogh do able not advisable.

i dont run seperate amps but from all my reading use the separate amp for the fronts and the rest off the marantz.

[Krix Loudspeakers]

1 hour ago, Camo1151990 said:

Thanks again Michael for all of your knowledge and advice. I am using a Marantz SR7010 with an Emotiva XPA-5 to run the extra height channels and was planning on using it for the front stage. By taking the load of the front stage off the AVR should it take the extra 2 Dynamix in series or would I be better off leaving the AVR to do the front stage and use the spare channels on the XPA-5 to do those extra side surrounds?

I will have the rear seats about 1200mm from the rear wall and think I would definitely benefit from rear surrounds. Looks like I may be investing in another pair of Dynamix haha.

thanks again for any advice you have. 

FYI I have already purchased the Neuphonix and Epicentrix for the front stage with 2 sets of Dynamix and 2 Seismix 3 Subwoofers.

If possible I would definitely use the XPA-5 to power the Neuphonix and Epicentrix. Having the Dynamix hooked up in series (like Hopefullguy mentiones above) will bring the nominal impedance to 12 Ohms - which is actually easier for your AVR to handle.

That's a good distance from the rear wall and would definitely suit rear surrounds. Sounds like it's going to be one very impressive system!

 

[Camo1151990]

Thanks guys really appreciate it. I can't wait for this house to be built and enjoy this room! A build thread will be started once the construction of the room starts. Thanks again 

[Camo1151990]

Michael sorry to bug you again,

 

I have seen some ideas of using 6 ceiling speakers for Atmos in a 2 row setup. Do you think that is overkill or something that I would benefit from. If I was doing that would I run one of the height channel in series like the side surrounds aswell?

 

Thanks gents.

[betty boop]

not michael. but in a 6 m space ...6 in ceiling speakers ? on top of literally dual rows of sides and rears as well presumably. isn't that all a bit much. 

 

butI then I wouldn't personally even bother with the extra sides for the rear row    but have visited plenty of home theatres running them

 

re 6 in ceilings. dolby does support this but i understand you will be looking at next breed of AVR/processors around 12mths + possibly ?

 

all that said to be siting at 3m point in a 6m room raises some alarm bells for me. wouldn't that be slap bang in the middle of the room. which is where usually end up with a null. better would be to go main listening position at 4m point. still leaves good 2m behind for a 2nd row which would think sufficient ?  and a 120" at 4m is pretty decent and would suggest preferable than at 3m which would be a tad close a screen that size  typically in most theatres you optimise for the main listening position and thats usually front row. unless considering the main listening position to be 2nd row... which i have also seen done.

[Camo1151990]

Thanks for the input, I do agree that the 6 in ceilings will be bit much. 

 

3m in will be the middle of the room. It won't be that exact measurement but close to it, due to the entry of the room being where it is I can't have the rear row any further back than 5m so really puts the front row between that 3-3.5m mark. Any suggestions to change that thought? The design of the theatre is as above but still in the design stage.

 

Cheers

Cameron

[Krix Loudspeakers]

2 hours ago, Camo1151990 said:

Michael sorry to bug you again,

 

I have seen some ideas of using 6 ceiling speakers for Atmos in a 2 row setup. Do you think that is overkill or something that I would benefit from. If I was doing that would I run one of the height channel in series like the side surrounds aswell?

 

Thanks gents.

 

Hi Cameron,

The idea of running 2 pairs of side surrounds is generally done by a select few in longer rooms to gain better side coverage across the rows. With a 7.1.4 setup you already have 2 pairs of speakers over head from front to back, giving substantial coverage already.

As you mention, your current AVR cannot handle more than 4 overhead speakers, so you'd need to hook 2 pairs up in an array. Personally, I don't think I would worry about it if they needed to be in an array. It's not to say you can't, but they won't be able to be level matched/EQ'd separately as mentioned in my other post.

 

The Emotiva RMC-1 coming out next year will be capable of 7.3.6 which would allow 6 discrete overheads, or you could look at some of the other processor options available if you had a lot more money to spend on a different processor and more amps.

 Cheers,

Michael
 

 

[YourMateDyl]

I've found more isn't always better in these sorts of situations. My room is a little smaller and I've spent about 4 months just playing with speaker angles and distances. It's gotten to the point where I can't even tell where these sounds are coming. I've gotten the balance that good! And I'm still rocking some crappy Jensen speakers in a 5.1 config with no treatment on the side walls!
I'd spend more time finding the sweet spot for all your speakers than worrying about adding more of them. You'll be surprised just how good you can get things sounding just by experimenting.
 

[elvis..]

130 from 4m wow wont that be to big? il be doing 120at 4m

[Wavetrain]

this may help, this is the angles that have been determined to work with all Dolby/Auro3D/ DTS:X

It will depend on your boundaries to the listening area, a left speaker has to be a left for all listeners

[Home theatre rookie]

Thats an intetesting pic. (The first top view).

 

It looks like the height channels are too close to the side channels.

I brought my side channels forward to be almost inline with my first row of seats.

[Mobe1969]

Sorry to resurrect an old Post, but that last multi row picture is interesting. Has anyone done a 7 channel setup with the side speakers slightly forward of the seat (as in the picture your were in the centre row)? I'm just finishing up my room build (it is only 3.6x4.8m) and having the 4 speakers to the rear feels too unbalanced. It'd feel more natural spaced equally between front and rear. I probably should just use 5.1.4 rather than 7.1.4.

[betty boop]

if side speakers are bi-pole then *slightly* forward is not an issue.

 

dolby dont actually suggest to have all 4 surrounds to the rear. the ones on the side can be at 90 deg ie on the side.

 

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/7-1-setup.html

 

placement is to the side or very slightly to the back. ie upto 110 deg. 

 

if you just go 5.1.4 you will be badly missing out on the whole rear field of sound. we get a bunch of titles that are a 7.1 base atmos builds on.

 

personally id go 7.1.2 over 5.1.4 if restricted in channels.

[Mobe1969]

7 hours ago, al said:

if side speakers are bi-pole then *slightly* forward is not an issue.

 

dolby dont actually suggest to have all 4 surrounds to the rear. the ones on the side can be at 90 deg ie on the side.

 

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/7-1-setup.html

 

placement is to the side or very slightly to the back. ie upto 110 deg. 

 

if you just go 5.1.4 you will be badly missing out on the whole rear field of sound. we get a bunch of titles that are a 7.1 base atmos builds on.

 

personally id go 7.1.2 over 5.1.4 if restricted in channels.

No, I have enough channels. I just keep looking at that multi row image, and that seems more logical/balanced to me - and obviously in a real cinema, that would _have_ to be how they do it. Just none of the Dolby home cinema images show it that way - as in the one you posted, either direct to the side or behind. But the atmos speakers are more logical, two behind to in front.

 

Worst yet, for some reason when I was placing the cable ducts, the centre ones I put in the centre of the wall...

 

I may go with centre, and move back if I find it odd.