I think I've found my systems weakness!

[Telecine]

5 minutes ago, blakey72 said:

I've heard (or read) that the 9200 pre is very good. Like comparable to a $1k pre. Who knows though. 

 

Well your experience is obviously that it is rather clinical sounding is it not? Time to try something with a reputation for musicality.

 

If you haven't done so already, why not try the Graham Slee Loaner Program through @cheekyboy to see what a separate phono stage can do for you.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Telecine

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

3 minutes ago, blakey72 said:

I've heard (or read) that the 9200 pre is very good. Like comparable to a $1k pre. Who knows though. 

It should be plenty good enough, providing the cartridge loading is OK. If not, something that does have the loading right will sound better. It's worth checking the numbers - that the cartridge matches both tonearm and phono amp - to be on the safe side.

 

The real weakness here is the turntable, though. I'm pretty certain of that.

[powerav]

5 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Now that's a shame. I like a detailed system, but not playing favourite music? No way.

It's only 1 cd, Queensryche Operation Mindcrime, it's well know for being pretty harsh, the live DVD is pretty good though.

[blakey72]

3 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

I'm going to point the finger at your turntable and cartridge here. The cartridge is more of the same - very stark. The turntable is way behind the rest of the system.  Putting my 1980s hat on, the rest of the system is exposing the turntable.

 

Weren't you after a Sondek? That would go a long way towards solving your problem.

Do you think the Linn will make that much of a difference? Hoping so but unsure what to expect. Is the rpm5.1 a entry level turntable?

[TOPSHELF]

I think blakey wants a system that makes all music sound good not a system that reproduces well produced music to sound amazing.
It's a trade off between all those hallmarks we like to say "inky blackness" "detailed" "a veil has been lifted" etc etc. Versus a medicore system that just plays music, is a tad forgiving but can make most recordings sound fine. You can listen to it for hours too.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Guest Sime]

4 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

 

I wish I could, but there's a thing called money    And all I could do is dream....

 

'You don't need to be rich to build a personalized system. The only trick is knowing what you like

[A J]

I've heard (or read) that the 9200 pre is very good. Like comparable to a $1k pre. Who knows though. 

I've heard both the Graham Slee and the 9100 phono stage - the Pre on the Plinius beats the GS to my ears


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[powerav]

At least I know my ears are good as most here agree aswell, sounds much worse on a detailed system. It's that bad it actually hurts your ears, such a shame as I had it on at least once a week in the car stereo back in the 80s and the only album I know word for word without the music.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/queensryche-operation-mindcrime-whats-the-best-sounding-version.228274/

Edited August 19, 2017 by powerav

[Keith_W]

May I suggest that you check your VTA. A 180gm record is thicker than a normal record, so this will affect your VTA. If your cartridge is low with respect to the counterweight, this will emphasize the treble. Playing a thicker record will raise the cartridge and give you more bass. If there is too much treble, it might sound analytical. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Keith_W

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

48 minutes ago, blakey72 said:

Do you think the Linn will make that much of a difference? Hoping so but unsure what to expect. Is the rpm5.1 a entry level turntable?

Not really, it's in the same league as the basic Regas, a step over entry level. But the amp and speakers are well above that level.

Remember, back in the late pre-CD age, the recommended upgrade route was turntable, turntable, turntable, then everything else. It was extreme, but was like that for a reason.

 

I think you've hit that reason, head on. I haven't checked your cartridge/phono amp compatibility (but it's probably OK if the Nirvana really was that much better) - that plays a role too, and is why you'll read about great improvements from phono amps - it's more often better matching than detail retrieval.

 

In order to work with an amp and speakers that give good detail, you've got to get the detail off the record in good order in the first place.

 

In fact I guess you'll need a really good tonearm as well as a great turntable to get up to the standard of your other components. Good mechanical engineering is expensive.

 

 

[blakey72]

14 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

May I suggest that you check your VTA. A 180gm record is thicker than a normal record, so this will affect your VTA. If your cartridge is low with respect to the counterweight, this will emphasize the treble. Playing a thicker record will raise the cartridge and give you more bass. If there is too much treble, it might sound analytical. 

That's funny you say that Keith, there does seem to be more bass on this vinyl.

[Jonny]

5 hours ago, blakey72 said:

As most have you have been trying to do for years, I have been trying to find audio Nirvana. Just lately I've been listening to lots of different kinds of music, old and new. Something has been bugging me through this time, I haven't really been enjoying the music. This morning took the cake. I put on an old Iron Maiden album (vinyl) as I'm not spinning many cd's. I just didn't like it! I thought that's it, I'll selling the lot cause I'm sick of chasing my tail.

 

Then I looked at a brand new album I had bought and not even opened. Nirvana 180g vinyl Audiophile 45rpm. I put it on and bam, the magic was back. Then it dawned on me that it was the recordings I wasn't liking but this was due to my system. It's just too analytical and honest. It stops me from enjoying music when it's poorly recorded. Now to me that's a problem. @Cafad told me the Plinius 9200 was very honest with it's sound and PMC's are monitor speakers. Maybe I've been chasing too much detail? Is this a common audiophile problem?

 

Blakey.

 

I had exactly the same problem when I owned PMC's in the past. Tried various high end sources with them and had some decent room treatment at times with them. But still couldn't enjoy the music properly. While they do sound excellent in some areas, particularly the bass. They sound way too hard/trebly for my ears personally. I did find them very analytical as well. The Kef's I own now which are way cheaper and sound way better in many areas. I listen to and enjoy much more music now with the Kef's. 

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

4 minutes ago, Jonny said:

 

I had exactly the same problem when I owned PMC's in the past. Tried various high end sources with them and had some decent room treatment at times with them. But still couldn't enjoy the music properly. While they do sound excellent in some areas, particularly the bass. They sound way too hard/trebly for my ears personally. I did find them very analytical as well. The Kef's I own now which are way cheaper and sound way better in many areas. I listen to and enjoy much more music now with the Kef's. 

Interestingly, "hard treble" can be caused by a shortfall in the bass - but the bass itself can sound OK at the same time. One of the effects of a good sub can be to improve treble.

 

46 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

May I suggest that you check your VTA. A 180gm record is thicker than a normal record, so this will affect your VTA. If your cartridge is low with respect to the counterweight, this will emphasize the treble. Playing a thicker record will raise the cartridge and give you more bass. If there is too much treble, it might sound analytical. 

I should have thought of that. I never got "crap to brilliant" just from disc thickness in my time, but a small difference in height can do that.

[Satanica]

7 hours ago, powerav said:

At least I know my ears are good as most here agree aswell, sounds much worse on a detailed system. It's that bad it actually hurts your ears, such a shame as I had it on at least once a week in the car stereo back in the 80s and the only album I know word for word without the music.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/queensryche-operation-mindcrime-whats-the-best-sounding-version.228274/

 

I think we've talked about this before. It's a "steely" sounding album. I actually preferred the remastered version the last time I listened to it and compared it to the original because the remastered has more bass. I enjoyed listening to it. I've got a lot of soft furnishings and plenty of bass output that doesn't bring over attention to the recordings treble. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Satanica

[Satanica]

13 hours ago, blakey72 said:

As most have you have been trying to do for years, I have been trying to find audio Nirvana. Just lately I've been listening to lots of different kinds of music, old and new. Something has been bugging me through this time, I haven't really been enjoying the music. This morning took the cake. I put on an old Iron Maiden album (vinyl) as I'm not spinning many cd's. I just didn't like it! I thought that's it, I'll selling the lot cause I'm sick of chasing my tail.

 

Then I looked at a brand new album I had bought and not even opened. Nirvana 180g vinyl Audiophile 45rpm. I put it on and bam, the magic was back. Then it dawned on me that it was the recordings I wasn't liking but this was due to my system. It's just too analytical and honest. It stops me from enjoying music when it's poorly recorded. Now to me that's a problem. @Cafad told me the Plinius 9200 was very honest with it's sound and PMC's are monitor speakers. Maybe I've been chasing too much detail? Is this a common audiophile problem?

 

Blakey.

 

Out of interest, what Iron Maiden album was it?

 

I think it is a common audiophile problem of chasing too much detail that simply isn't there while ignoring the elephant in the room; you are hearing way less than optimal bass quality and quantity at all audible frequencies at soft and all the way through to loud playback levels.

[Satanica]

13 hours ago, blakey72 said:

As most have you have been trying to do for years, I have been trying to find audio Nirvana. Just lately I've been listening to lots of different kinds of music, old and new. Something has been bugging me through this time, I haven't really been enjoying the music. This morning took the cake. I put on an old Iron Maiden album (vinyl) as I'm not spinning many cd's. I just didn't like it! I thought that's it, I'll selling the lot cause I'm sick of chasing my tail.

 

Then I looked at a brand new album I had bought and not even opened. Nirvana 180g vinyl Audiophile 45rpm. I put it on and bam, the magic was back. Then it dawned on me that it was the recordings I wasn't liking but this was due to my system. It's just too analytical and honest. It stops me from enjoying music when it's poorly recorded. Now to me that's a problem. @Cafad told me the Plinius 9200 was very honest with it's sound and PMC's are monitor speakers. Maybe I've been chasing too much detail? Is this a common audiophile problem?

 

Blakey.

 

Out of interest, what Iron Maiden album was it?

 

I think it is a common audiophile problem of chasing too much detail that simply isn't there while ignoring the elephant in the room; you are hearing way less than optimal bass quality and quantity at all audible frequencies at soft and all the way through to loud playback levels.

[Blk plastic]

@blakey72 I think it's simple really, if one recording sounds fantastic on your system,then your system is fantastic. If other recordings don't,then it's the recordings. I guess the question is can you live with that or do you want a system that makes everything sound fantastic? I had the same issue with my set up. My previous rig coloured everything in a nice way,but as I swapped things out, with speakers making the biggest difference, I realised quickly that not all things were recorded well.

[powerav]

35 minutes ago, Blk plastic said:

I think it's simple really, if one recording sounds fantastic on your system,then your system is fantastic. If other recordings don't,then it's the recordings.

Exactly, I like simple.

[powerav]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

I think we've talked about this before. It's a "steely" sounding album. I actually preferred the remastered version the last time I listened to it and compared it to the original because the remastered has more bass. I enjoyed listening to it. I've got a lot of soft furnishings and plenty of bass output that doesn't bring over attention to the recordings treble. 

Did you read the link? even the band hated it. Listen to Empire, that is one of the better recordings going around so they obviously realised this and fixed it. I was of thebiggest fans of this band going around and waited 20 years for a decent sound system to listen to it so you can understand my disappointment, I actually had the axe killler version still wrapped in plastic for 15 years thinking it would have been the best version, turns out it's the worst.

[Guest Sime]

If you have a system that's over analytical, a tad harsh, add a sub and adjust ever so accordingly, so much so that it doesn't overpower, but smooths things out. The problem with most older recordings, especially heavy metal, is that they are a tad thin. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Sime

[Guest Sime]

double post

Edited August 19, 2017 by Sime

[Martykt]

15 hours ago, blakey72 said:

I have been trying to find audio Nirvana. 

Then I looked at a brand new album I had bought and not even opened. Nirvana 180g vinyl Audiophile 45rpm. I put it on and bam, the magic was back. 

 

Well duuuhhhh !!!  

Audio Nirvana was under your nose the whole time !!!

It even said so on the cover !!!  

 

[Martykt]

As for too much resolution, what I have found is the higher up you go with your system the harder you have to work to get it absolutely right.

When you do put the effort in and get it right it can be absolutely amazing and give you an extra level of appreciation for the music playing.  

 

The sad truth is there will always be recordings that are musically great but are unlistenable on a high end system due to the  recording or mastering process being absolute cr*p....

 

The simple answer for that stuff is a second 'fun' system made up of stuff like 70s gear where you won't hear the deficiencies in the recording but you can just crank it up and enjoy !! 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Martykt

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

21 minutes ago, Sime said:

If you have a system that's over analytical, a tad harsh, add a sub and adjust ever so accordingly, so much so that it doesn't overpower, but smooths things out. The problem with most older recordings, especially heavy metal, is that they are a tad thin. 

Or, indeed, get speakers that go down further. One test is to listen to the system through (ideally closed back) headphones with the sound up a little way. If the sound of the poorer recording improves dramatically, a sub is a good place to start. If the sound is still awful pay attention to the turntable.

 

If the speakers are muted, then any acoustic effect on the turntable isn't taken into account when doing this test.

[ABG]

@blakey72  What turntable, cart and arm are you using?  Perhaps a warmer sounding cart like a Benz or Zyx might improve matters.  But without knowing what you have, I'm just speculating like everybody else.