AudioGeek Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 26 minutes ago, LHC said: This is contrary to the conclusion that @davewantsmoore, @almikel and I arrived at when we discussed this in a much earlier thread. We agreed that dead flat frequency response is what give one the most details across all bands so all low level details could be heard. I quote from Dave: "Flat. ...... because a non-flat frequency response significantly contributes to stored energy, which raises the noise floor, which blocks quieter sounds from being accurately reproduced. The frequency response is "linear distortion" ..... Non-linear distortion, like harmonic and intermodulation distortion also contribute to reduced SNR .... but they're a lot less problematic (it is easy to get them below their audibility threshold)." Hyper detail is almost invariably the result of an unbalanced frequency response. I must say I think I have experienced both. A super hot treble response which sounds hyper detailed (Alpine splits in my car) and too much bass from poorly integrated subwoofer which obscures quiter sounds in my home theatre system. Incidentally both were addressed with measurement and dsp.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, AudioGeek said: Hyper detail is almost invariably the result of an unbalanced frequency response. I must say I think I have experienced both. A super hot treble response which sounds hyper detailed (Alpine splits in my car) and too much bass from poorly integrated subwoofer which obscures quiter sounds in my home theatre system. Incidentally both were addressed with measurement and dsp.... Absolutely, you get thst on ESL and if you have a look at some headphones such as the BeyerT90, here's one can that is so hyper on microdetails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 This is contrary to the conclusion that [mention=108814]davewantsmoore[/mention], [mention=112425]almikel[/mention] and I arrived at when we discussed this in a much earlier thread. We agreed that dead flat frequency response is what give one the most details across all bands so all low level details could be heard. I quote from Dave: "Flat. ...... because a non-flat frequency response significantly contributes to stored energy, which raises the noise floor, which blocks quieter sounds from being accurately reproduced. The frequency response is "linear distortion" ..... Non-linear distortion, like harmonic and intermodulation distortion also contribute to reduced SNR .... but they're a lot less problematic (it is easy to get them below their audibility threshold)." How, or where, is flat defined? Is it at the listening position and thus takes into account reflected sound? Or is it near field to the speaker? And if it's the former than can this not be met in quite different ways; i.e., good off axis performance with reflections or highly directive? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHC Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, zydeco said: How, or where, is flat defined? Is it at the listening position and thus takes into account reflected sound? Or is it near field to the speaker? And if it's the former than can this not be met in quite different ways; i.e., good off axis performance with reflections or highly directive? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro I agree this can be ambiguous and certainly reflected sound can contribute to what is heard (and measured). The earlier thread I linked was basically an academic discourse, so in that case just assume it referred to a near field hearing experience. But if one were to extend that conclusion for a flat FR speaker that is also highly directive (beaming?) to the listening position, then logically the sound would still have the most details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A9X Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 8:52 PM, zydeco said: How, or where, is flat defined? Is it at the listening position and thus takes into account reflected sound? Or is it near field to the speaker? Measuring FR at a single point in space is a waste of time. A set of polars at 15* increments H&V is the minimum necessary to give an idea how the room will affect it above Schroeder. My personal preference is for controlled directivity monopole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 18 hours ago, A9X said: Measuring FR at a single point in space is a waste of time. Why you feel that way, Grasshopper? Especially, if the only concern is the sound at that single point....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A9X Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 41 minutes ago, Nigel said: Why you feel that way, Grasshopper? Especially, if the only concern is the sound at that single point....... Because the sound at your ears at the MLP is not solely from the direct sound to your ears, but the summation of all paths, and their interactions, that make it back to the LP. Different types, arrangements, driver configurations and enclosure shapes all have an affect on how a given speaker radiates sound, at what level and in what direction. For dipoles/panels like yours, you should read the discussions on this at Linkwitz's site and John Kreshovsky (musicanddesign) as well as the paper linked at the beginning of this thread. The last few pages of the Legacy V manual show why in a few easy to understand diagrams (pic is a thousand words, and I type slowly). That will also explain why I have gone down the path I have. Edit: Bill Waslo's take on it too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Nigel said: Why you feel that way, Grasshopper? Especially, if the only concern is the sound at that single point....... I guess it also depends if someone is designing a commercial speaker which has to fit into (and sound good in) any number of rooms, or conversely if someone (like us) is DIYing a speaker to suit our own specific situation, room, speaker position, listening position etc. SS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Cones and panels, like one another that is a fact !! The more I listen to this one the more I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ando Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 18 hours ago, A9X said: The last few pages of the Legacy V manual show why in a few easy to understand diagrams Mr Dudleston has some interesting ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aechmea Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) From p38 snip ... significant addition to the work of Schroeder and Ando on the importance of minimizing inter-aural ... snip Hey, @Ando, an acknowledgement of your excellent work. Edited July 26, 2017 by aechmea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ando Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Yoichi = Japanese for Michael ? That Ando would be my long lost Japanese brother Yoichi . We are a pretty talented family as my other brother Tadao has a few very impressive achievements to his name as well. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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