Do amps really make that much of a difference?

[Guest rogerthat]

7 hours ago, Frameperfect said:

Speakers > Room > Amp, is my experience. I was thrilled to take home my floor standers, having spent hours in the shop auditioning and knowing the brand and its competitors quite well. They are in a room with professional treatment comprising of 8 bass traps. This is because the room is around 2.8m x 2.8m or so. With no bass traps the sound will bounce around all the walls in an unpleasant manner. Even with these bass traps, two bookshelves and a rug I am quite unsatisfied. The sound is excellent, but I know these speakers could sound exceptional in a bigger room. They are not meant to be shoved into some back office, they must be liberated, free to sing in an open atmosphere. Unfortunately that room is my circumstance and I have come to somewhat regret my purchase of floor standers when the rational choice was bookshelf speakers. The irony is that after hearing such high quality floor standers, particularly the weight and scale they provide I'm not sure book shelf speakers would be a solution.

 

 

Like you said, compromises must be made so we just have to make the right compromises. I must sympathise with the above and would have made a similar mistake but for dumb luck.

 

I know people will disagree (usually to justify their massive speakers/tiny room problem) but the speakers have to match the room. They will keep flipping other components trying to compensate but not surprisingly, never reach their goal. I would love to have nice big floorstanders in my 3.5x5m room but I am glad I don't.

[Guest rogerthat]

1 minute ago, rocky500 said:

It seems a lot treatments are not that effective that you can buy or are very expensive. eg. foam and thinner panels.

I have put treatment at first reflections but did not seem to make much difference.

I have put a bit work into them, so will keep persevering with more.

I see room room room mentioned a lot but it is not a simple thing to do easy and effectively or even cheaply. Plus can change the look of a room very quickly to what only a man could put up with.

 

Agree with the aesthetics problem. What panels have you been using?

[davm]

Some great opportunities to save some serious money buying an amp second-hand, especially from this site. With solid state, my only caveat would be to exercise some caution with older, high powered class A amps that run at high temperature. Better off with a good quality class AB amp to start with.

[rocky500]

17 minutes ago, rogerthat said:

 

Agree with the aesthetics problem. What panels have you been using?

My current panels in the corners. 150mm thick XHD.

 

I have found one amp I have here worked so well with one set of speakers while not with some other speakers, which a different amp did. So matching amps to speakers seems it is also important.

Both amps were not under powered in any way for the speakers.

 

[Guest rogerthat]

4 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

My current panels in the corners. 150mm thick XHD.

 

I have found one amp I have here worked so well with one set of speakers while not with some other speakers, which a different amp did. So matching amps to speakers seems it is also important.

Both amps were not under powered in any way for the speakers.

 

 

I think you have nailed it in the looks department. That is about as good as it gets. 150mm? I did not know XHD came that thick. Or did you use multiple 50mm panels?  

[rocky500]

Just now, rogerthat said:

 

I think you have nailed it in the looks department. That is about as good as it gets. 150mm? I did not know XHD came that thick. Or did you use multiple 50mm panels?  

Multiples of 50mm. So 3 panels 120cm x 60cm in each section.

[Guest rogerthat]

3 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

Multiples of 50mm. So 3 panels 120cm x 60cm in each section.

 

Nice.

[Al.M]

On 15/07/2017 at 7:26 AM, Wimbo said:

Software,room, front end, Pre, Power, then speakers.

The amp can be very important as well.

This is pretty well right. Learning how to hear the differences at a HiFi level is very important if you are to progress and spend your money correctly. Of course the most important thing is finding out what type of sound you like. 15 years ago I was a Panel man and now I'm going through that "I wish I was in my 20's again " period and playing Supertramp, Stones, Dingoes, CCR etc and I run a pair of JBL's pretty loud sometimes.

Agreed, that was the reason behind my long winded previous post as you can throw a number of different amps in front of people and they all don't have enough experience of listening to tell the difference. 

[Al.M]

56 minutes ago, rogerthat said:

 

 

Like you said, compromises must be made so we just have to make the right compromises. I must sympathise with the above and would have made a similar mistake but for dumb luck.

 

I know people will disagree (usually to justify their massive speakers/tiny room problem) but the speakers have to match the room. They will keep flipping other components trying to compensate but not surprisingly, never reach their goal. I would love to have nice big floorstanders in my 3.5x5m room but I am glad I don't.

I have a similar room 5 x 3.8 x 3m and array the speakers across the 5m length with enough space behind the speakers and head against the wall and satisfied with it. It's more a near fieldish sound with extra bass boost head near wall. Large panel speakers struggle in the room and medium to sub-large floorstanders work ok. A very large floorstander around 1.8m probably wouldn't do.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Al.M

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

55 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

It seems a lot treatments are not that effective that you can buy or are very expensive. eg. foam and thinner panels.

 

I guess that depends on what you define as 'expensive'. Compared to a high end speaker system, room treaments can be very cheap indeed. 

 

55 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I have put treatment at first reflections but did not seem to make much difference.

 

Well, if you just whacked them up, without first measuring and establishing the problem you are trying to solve, then that is not altogether surprising. Room treatments may be cheap, but learning the right way to use those room treatments may be considerably more expensive. 

 

55 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I have put a bit work into them, so will keep persevering with more.

I see room room room mentioned a lot but it is not a simple thing to do easy and effectively or even cheaply. Plus can change the look of a room very quickly to what only a man could put up with.

 

Well, that much is true. 

[Al.M]

10 hours ago, Frameperfect said:

Speakers > Room > Amp, is my experience. I was thrilled to take home my floor standers, having spent hours in the shop auditioning and knowing the brand and its competitors quite well. They are in a room with professional treatment comprising of 8 bass traps. This is because the room is around 2.8m x 2.8m or so. With no bass traps the sound will bounce around all the walls in an unpleasant manner. Even with these bass traps, two bookshelves and a rug I am quite unsatisfied. The sound is excellent, but I know these speakers could sound exceptional in a bigger room. They are not meant to be shoved into some back office, they must be liberated, free to sing in an open atmosphere. Unfortunately that room is my circumstance and I have come to somewhat regret my purchase of floor standers when the rational choice was bookshelf speakers. The irony is that after hearing such high quality floor standers, particularly the weight and scale they provide I'm not sure book shelf speakers would be a solution.

 

The moral of the story is two fold. The room matters. And, nothing in audio land is ever perfect and that's the way we like it, at least that's how I feel. 

 

Onto the amp. I will agree with the previous posters. The amplifier does matter to an extent but it suffers from diminishing returns rapidly. There's simply too many needs and too many solutions to provide a monetary formula in evaluating the cost benefit of amplifiers. The best solution is to allow your budget to select the choices and your research to aid your pick. For my amplifier I had a budget and went with a Vincent Integrated. I was able to test through a friend a Cambridge SR10 (600) against a Vincent Seperate system (3500). They both had the features needed, and they both made sound. The difference is at the most 20%. The Vincent's bass, mids and treble were defined. It was like going from a dirt cheap LCD to a nice Samsung. Its not that you can't watch the movie on both, but the latter is crispy, punchy, vibrant and has greater resolution. I went with a Vincent integrated for 2300 after that. Its not my ideal amp, but its 95% of my friends amp for less money. I thought this was the sweet spot. I would prefer a Luxman or Accuphase separates system, and having listened to the Luxman in the shop for several hours I can say its another level of resolution above my Vincent. Another 10% better I would say.

From what I understand the 2.8 x 2.8 room is not only small in cubic volume but is also a no-no in terms of avoiding the cubic ratios of spaces with equal dimensions where standing waves pile up resulting in mudiness.

 

A year ago I introduced someone to tube preamps who was building a speaker amp system and had used top end headphones for most of his life, had great taste in high quality music and good ears, he owned about half dozen pairs of hi end headphones Senhheiser HD800 and Audio Technica 5000 ($10k rrp all total), good head phone amp and $20k rrp Krell CD player. He was using a good looking $2k rrp Vincent integrated amp and as soon as I dropped in my mid end tube preamps and power amps he was off and running and could immediately hear the difference and within 6 months his final setup was a nice used $15k rrp Conrad Johnson pre and matching used KT88 / 6550 tube power amp, in a smallish 3 x 4m room. It was very satisfying to see some one get there quickly and really enjoy it, although he had good ears to start with.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Al.M

[Roumelio.]

On 10/07/2017 at 9:58 PM, JimmyiovinE said:

 

This is true, i only listen to headphones on my pc. 

 

If all you've been listening to is headphones on your PC through a headphone amp/DAC (which mostly uses cheap transistor Operational amps) then you're not going to gain much insight into what different types of amps are liable to do for you. If you want to hear what different 2channel amps can do for you, first you must use a range of different fully fledged 2 channel amps.

 

The previous page hit the nail on the head. One will generally start out with a cheap no-name brand amplifier then wonder about something better, which will lead to a pathway of exploring other things. My current fascination is valve amplifcation where I have a Pioner SA-400 driving (not by much) a set of LS3/5A studio monitors for near field listening. It puts out, oh I don't know about 85db with three quarters of a knob full of gain.

 

An amp should sound clear and transparent to your ears regardless of whether the amp is transistor or solid state and if you can't isolate a clear sound to begin with from your amplifier than toss it back. The idea that a valve amp will inherently distort comes from people who play musical instrument amplifiers and have the gain settings +12 and volume +10, this can sound pleasing driven by a musical instrument such as a guitar through a monophonic valve instrument amplifier but will sound horrible for listening to music.

 

Neither pathway between transistor and valve is wrong, a transistor amp will generally be more efficient at producing lots of power. The rest is a matter of exploring things and reading the literature until you find that clarity. Then you can experiment with destroying it properly (or fixing it) by using an EQ, and ideally doing a whole of room EQ to get the best possible sound you can out of that amps and speakers.

 

It's far easier to change something you don't like with an EQ than trying to EQ out a bad set of components from your system. The key goal to begin with should be developing a ruler flat frequency response for the room your system is in.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Roumelio.

[Frameperfect]

7 hours ago, Jebediah said:

 

Is it just me, or is all this advice about room treatments and speakers falling on deaf ears 

This is true, it happens all the time in real conversation and you learn some fascinating things.

 

I use the Amp / Dac built into my microphone for my T90s. I've owned a dragonfly before and tested various amps at headphonic. Never heard any improvement to justify the price. As long as its not running from the mobo its all the same to me :/

[Frameperfect]

2 hours ago, Al.M said:

From what I understand the 2.8 x 2.8 room is not only small in cubic volume but is also a no-no in terms of avoiding the cubic ratios of spaces with equal dimensions where standing waves pile up resulting in mudiness.

 

A year ago I introduced someone to tube preamps who was building a speaker amp system and had used top end headphones for most of his life, had great taste in high quality music and good ears, he owned about half dozen pairs of hi end headphones Senhheiser HD800 and Audio Technica 5000 ($10k rrp all total), good head phone amp and $20k rrp Krell CD player. He was using a good looking $2k rrp Vincent integrated amp and as soon as I dropped in my mid end tube preamps and power amps he was off and running and could immediately hear the difference and within 6 months his final setup was a nice used $15k rrp Conrad Johnson pre and matching used KT88 / 6550 tube power amp, in a smallish 3 x 4m room. It was very satisfying to see some one get there quickly and really enjoy it, although he had good ears to start with.

 

A small cube room is considered the hardest to tame. I put 2 large book shelves in to try and get it more rectangular. Added in the bass traps. This got the room to workable but obviously a larger rectangular room would be superior and wouldn't need the bass traps which add their own issues when you have 8 of them

 

Conrad Johnson pres are fantastic from what I hear. Its good that your friend put the headphones down, they have an intimacy and resolution that is quite addictive but its never the same as proper stereo.

[Roumelio.]

I too am DAC agnostic when it comes to that. But then most devices are that good that you should be DAC agnostic. A simple device such as an iPhone SE or iPhone 6 will put out a ruler flat frequency response curve in any manner of testing which is audible by your ears. The people who buy into $700 DACs are the same people I generally see buying into 100's of dollars worth of monster cables.

[rocky500]

10 minutes ago, Roumelio. said:

I too am DAC agnostic when it comes to that. But then most devices are that good that you should be DAC agnostic. A simple device such as an iPhone SE or iPhone 6 will put out a ruler flat frequency response curve in any manner of testing which is audible by your ears. The people who buy into $700 DACs are the same people I generally see buying into 100's of dollars worth of monster cables.

Its great to have that view and opinion as this hobby can be quite expensive to us who actually hear the difference.

Some Dacs are in the many thousands.

I think once you have been in this hobby for a while listening to a lot of gear these differences do become apparent and sought after.

My cables are majority Chinese made and very affordable. Interconnects are $30ea. My dac plus extra devices are many times the price you mention. 

[Roumelio.]

There isn't any difference to hear other than placebo and nocebo effects and the ever increasing Hi-Fi magazines that tell you if you spend more you will automatically have a better system. It doesn't work like that.

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/measurements-apple-iphone-4-iphone-6.html

[pete_mac]

25 minutes ago, Roumelio. said:

I too am DAC agnostic when it comes to that. But then most devices are that good that you should be DAC agnostic. A simple device such as an iPhone SE or iPhone 6 will put out a ruler flat frequency response curve in any manner of testing which is audible by your ears. The people who buy into $700 DACs are the same people I generally see buying into 100's of dollars worth of monster cables.

 

My personal experience is very different to your own.

 

I'd back myself to pick a DAC such as the Gieseler Klein DAC ($750) vs the iPhone 6 into any suitably resolving system.

 

I use my iPhone 6S as a convenient source when testing amps, and it sounds fine. I've also compared it back-to-back with the Klein in my main rig, and I'd be amazed if anyone couldn't pick the difference between the two, blind test or otherwise.

 

 

[Roumelio.]

I would not, let step back from the ledge and actually read the article I posted above please.

[rocky500]

3 minutes ago, Roumelio. said:

There isn't any difference to hear other than placebo and nocebo effects and the ever increasing Hi-Fi magazines that tell you if you spend more you will automatically have a better system. It doesn't work like that.

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/measurements-apple-iphone-4-iphone-6.html

I think of it like a thrillseeker after that feeling.

A merry go round is exciting to some but you do not get the same thrill after a while and move on to the ferris wheel. Then that does not do it for you after a while and then its the bumber cars ... then the roller coaster etc.

Then may move up to more extreme sports like skydiving, hand gliding etc but these don't do it for you after a while and to chase that feeling more and more and you may get more extreme.

With audio my system can get boring after some time and don't have the same interest listening any more, so to get that enjoyment factor going, I tend to look at upgrades.

You can look at most hobbies and once you have been in it for a while you tend to spend more and more as you get experience. The early adopters see no real advantage is spending the money as they enjoy it already.

[JimmyiovinE]

3 minutes ago, Roumelio. said:

I would not, let step back from the ledge and actually read the article I posted above please.

 

Whats the point that an iphone dac is just as good as a 700$ dac?

 

I have am iphone 6 (my new S8 arrives monday) but I will back my Hugo 2 any day of the week oven an iphone. Haha. Seriously you can't even compare it, and no its not some placebo effect. Their is a MASSIVE notable difference. 

[Frameperfect]

7 minutes ago, Roumelio. said:

I would not, let step back from the ledge and actually read the article I posted above please.

 

Each to their own, some people buy DACs because it matches their stack, or it has features they need, and not for audible differences.

 

Personally, I've had a $1500 and $750 DAC and plenty of experience with my friends $2000 tube dac. The tube dac might have been a tad thicker than the rest. In all honesty I've sold them all and use a cheap dac magic. After A/B testing passages of songs I knew quite well I decided that for me DACs made no significant difference. 

 

Now what is funny is that I purchased some Chord ICs off the forums thinking it was a waste of money but wanting to see for myself. They made a big difference and cleaned up some equipment I had over the random kmart ones I was using. 

[JimmyiovinE]

1 minute ago, rocky500 said:

I think of it like a thrillseeker after that feeling.

A merry go round is exciting to some but you do not get the same thrill after a while and move on to the ferris wheel. Then that does not do it for you after a while and then its the bumber cars ... then the roller coaster etc.

Then may move up to more extreme sports like skydiving, hand gliding etc but these don't do it for you after a while and to chase that feeling more and more and you may get more extreme.

With audio my system can get boring after some time and don't have the same interest listening any more, so to get that enjoyment factor going, I tend to look at upgrades.

You can look at most hobbies and once you have been in it for a while you tend to spend more and more as you get experience. The early adopters see no real advantage is spending the money as they enjoy it already.

 

I feel its almost the same as people saying they can't see a difference between 30 frames per second and 60 and so on because the human eye can't see frames beyond a certian fps. When there is. Everyones ears are different, some people just don't get it. 

[Roumelio.]

5 minutes ago, JimmyiovinE said:

 

Whats the point that an iphone dac is just as good as a 700$ dac?

 

I have am iphone 6 (my new S8 arrives monday) but I will back my Hugo 2 any day of the week oven an iphone. Haha. Seriously you can't even compare it, and no its not some placebo effect. Their is a MASSIVE notable difference. 

 

The point is up to 48khz there is no difference between an iPhone and your expensive DAC. The point is we don't tend to listen to audio above what is mastered in 44khz stereo

[Guest m_james]

The message i'm getting from this thread is that one should go out and buy the cheapest <$200 amp one can find and keep it, never thinking about changing it. If that's the case, why are the classifieds flooded with multi-thousand $$ amps with the seller telling us the reason for the sale is an "upgrade"?