A comparison link, R2R Multibit vs Delta Sigma, PCM vs DSD debate, which type of D/A conversion is best for which format.

[georgehifi]

Here is an album, I have not listened to yet, but it could be interesting if it shows the better d/a conversion process for a  certain type of recording process.

 

 http://www.soundliaison.com/all-categories/6-compare-formats

 

Knock yourselves out.

 

Cheers George

Edited July 5, 2017 by georgehifi

[zenelectro]

Why would you create a DSD version from a pcm master?

[georgehifi]

On 06/07/2017 at 0:05 PM, zenelectro said:

Why would you create a DSD version from a pcm master?

 

Nearly all music worth listening to on dsd was once pcm.

Native dsd is another story, but the minimal music available is just rubbish. 

https://www.nativedsd.com/

Same goes for Native DXD.

https://www.promates.com/music-store/

 

Cheers George 

Edited July 9, 2017 by georgehifi

[frankn]

Many of the sites below offer DSD downloads but you need to check whether the recording was also in DSD.  If you do try comparing PCM, DSD, DXD etc you should also find out how your DAC handles the various formats...... a lot of the difference could be inside your DAC as opposed to the inherent differences in the formats.. 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-abcs-of-dsd-downloads  -  this article was written in 2014,

http://dsd-guide.com/where-can-you-find-dsd-music-downloads#.WV2yI4SGOUk - this is current (I think)

 

Both list many of these sites for DSD

 

Blue Coast Records (bluecoastrecords.com).

Downloads NOW! (downloadsnow.net)

Channel Classics Records (channelclassics.com)

Cybele Records (cybele.de)

DSD File (dsdfile.com)

2L (2l.no)

High Definition Tape Transfers (HDTT) (highdeftapetransfers.com)

Highresaudio (highresaudio.com)

Acoustic Sounds (superhirez.com)

HDtracks (hdtracks.com)

iTrax.com 

 

[a.dent]

I'm having a crappy day at work and I'm in a bad mood so I'm going to bah humbug the whole notion of one format being superior to another. The sound quality depends so much more on the original recording than on the final delivery format.

 

Take that!

[frankn]

I think thats what George and I were commenting on. The various sites allow individuals to access music that has been recorded, mastered and delivered in different formats. Some have kept the format constant from recording through to delivery so it should be possible (with some titles) to compare. I think we all agree that there are many factors that affect sound quality - it's not all about format but it is one component in a chain. 

Hope you have cheered up a bit. 

[firedog]

On 7/6/2017 at 5:20 AM, georgehifi said:

 

Nearly all music worth listening to on dsd was once pcm.

Native dsd is another story, but the minimal music available is just rubbish. 

 https://www.nativedsd.com/

Same goes for Native DXD.

https://www.promates.com/music-store/

 

Cheers George 

Why is the music at nativeDSD rubbish? Mahler and similar types of music are rubbish?

All "art" music from the 20th century is rubbish?

Not liking it is one thing, Calling it rubbish is another.

 

Lots of people think DSD is the best sounding  medium for digitizing analog. There are thousands of albums in DSD, of all types of music, released as SACD or DSD downloads that are DSD deriving from master tapes. 

 

 

[firedog]

On 7/6/2017 at 10:45 AM, a.dent said:

I'm having a crappy day at work and I'm in a bad mood so I'm going to bah humbug the whole notion of one format being superior to another. The sound quality depends so much more on the original recording than on the final delivery format.

 

Take that!

Agree. In my previous system I upsampled everything to DSD, because I thought most recordings sounded better that way - on that system.

My new setup converts everything to PCM - and sounds better that way. 

[georgehifi]

48 minutes ago, firedog said:

Why is the music at nativeDSD rubbish? Mahler and similar types of music are rubbish?

 

Not that Mahler itself is rubbish, but who and what did it, if I was to spend my money to purchase a Mahler which I have a couple already of it would be by an orchestra/conductor of some note. Not by a conductor or orchestra I've never heard of. 

 

Cheers George  

Edited July 9, 2017 by georgehifi

[firedog]

On 7/9/2017 at 10:00 AM, georgehifi said:

 

Not that Mahler itself is rubbish, but who and what did it, if I was to spend my money to purchase a Mahler which I have a couple already of it would be by an orchestra/conductor of some note. Not by a conductor or orchestra I've never heard of. 

 

Cheers George  

I guess you mean a conductor like Ivan Fischer, one of the best known in the world....

If you haven't heard of him, the problem isn't with nativeDSD.

[georgehifi]

38 minutes ago, firedog said:

I guess you mean a conductor like Ivan Fischer, one of the best known in the world....

If you haven't heard of him, the problem isn't with nativeDSD.

 

That's just an SACD hybrid taken from original PCM, long way from being Native DSD.

 

https://www.discogs.com/Mahler-Ivan-Fischer-Budapest-Festival-Orchestra-Gerhild-Romberger-Cantemus-Childrens-Choir-Chor-Des-/release/10448335

 

Cheers George

[firedog]

23 hours ago, georgehifi said:

 

That's just an SACD hybrid taken from original PCM, long way from being Native DSD.

 

https://www.discogs.com/Mahler-Ivan-Fischer-Budapest-Festival-Orchestra-Gerhild-Romberger-Cantemus-Childrens-Choir-Chor-Des-/release/10448335

 

Cheers George

 

 

Digging yourself another hole. I didn't mention the album you linked to, so how is that relevant to your original incorrect claim that only "rubbish" is recorded in DSD, and then your further spin  that even if the music isn't rubbish, known conductors and orchestras don't appear at nativeDSD, recorded in DSD?

 

Fischer  not only is one of the best known conductors in the world, but has multiple albums recorded natively to DSD at nativeDSD.com.  Including Mahler symphonies, Stravinsky, Brahams, etc. Is Gergiev also not a well known conductor?  He also has multiple albums recorded in DSD appearing there. I don't think any of them are "rubbish". Just two examples. 

 

Maybe you don't know how to use the search and page links to  find the recording provenance of the albums at the site?  

 

There are many more examples there of recordings with well known artists recording  in DSD. Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, many more. 

 

Some orchrestras, such as the SFO and LSO have also released their own recordings of major works recorded in DSD. Are they unknown "rubbish", too?

 

The simple truth is that today, if you want to, you can build quite a good library of classical music recorded in DSD. And more titles come out regularly. 

 

Note: Some (not most)  albums at nativeDSD are transfers from analog, as some labels consider the best sound is derived from recording or mixing to tape (even if the original recording is DSD) before producing  a DSD master. That's a whole different discussion, though. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by firedog

[georgehifi]

No hole dug, just ask what on "Native DSD" is worth buying, and there's not much, except for obscure show demo stuff, just like DXD which would be even better, but still no material worth buying.

BTW: please show the "Native DSD" of the SFO and LSO

 

Cheers George

Edited July 12, 2017 by georgehifi

[firedog]

George, really?

You are a smart guy. In about 5 seconds with a search you can find your answer, why be stubborn when you are clearly mistaken?

 

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/LSO5075-mozart-serenade-no-10-for-winds-gran-partita#  recorded at DSD 128

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/LSO0800-requiem# recorded at DSD 128

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/LSO0792-vaughan-williams-fantasia-on-a-theme-by-thomas-tallis-britten-variations-on-a-theme-of-frank-bridge# recorded at DSD 128

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/LSO0752-tchaikovsky-serenade-bartok-divertimento# recorded in DSD 64

 

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/LSO0609-elgar-enigma-variations-introduction-allegro# DSD 64

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/brahms-symphonies-nos-1-2#  DSD 64

https://lsolive.nativedsd.com/albums/LSO0752-tchaikovsky-serenade-bartok-divertimento# DSD 64

 

 "originally recorded in DSD 2.8Mhz":

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-1

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-2

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-3-kindertotenlieder

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-4

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-5

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-6

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-7

http://sanfranciscosymphony.downloadsnow.net/mahler-symphony-no-9

 

Here's one from the Houston Symphony, just to show you that it isn't just 2 orchestras:

https://pentatone.nativedsd.com/albums/PTC5186574-dvorak-symphony-no-9-from-the-new-world-2-slavonic-dances#

 

These are just a few examples of hundreds of works by major composers recorded in DSD. They really aren't hard to find.  Many by top flight artists. Others by lesser known but also excellent artists making a name for themselves. 

 

 

[georgehifi]

Do you think this is all pure Native dsd look much harder, and what of the material you took a day to find, I may get one or two of them.

 

What about some good popular stuff that we actually want to listen to, not just put on to show off the system.

 

Cheers George  

Edited July 13, 2017 by georgehifi

[firedog]

George-

What's your actual issue? I'm not trying to push DSD - my present setup converts it to PCM, anyway.

First,you repeatedly claim there is nothing, then you say, okay but what is there to listen to? There's tons of classical music, if you listen to that. And your excessive skepticism about recording provenance is out of place, everything I linked to is native DSD. When the recording says "recorded live to DSD" and recorded using Pyramix/Merging to DSD - it's a DSD recording.... I don't have to look harder...you need to open your eyes instead of just making baseless claims. 

 

There's also thousands of albums originally recorded to tape that have been directly remastered to DSD. Not junk, either, but famous, classic albums. Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson,  The Rolling Stones, classic jazz, etc. Some of it is available for download. Lots of classic jazz and classic rock and pop. Hundreds of albums. A lot of those analog>DSD remasters are the best sounding version of that album around, IMO.  Take a quick look at acousticsounds.com or findhdmusic.com. I bet even you could find some albums in DSD you'd be willing to listen to. 

 

All of the Sony Corp catalog was converted at one time to archive versions in DSD. Some has been/is being released as downloads. People also rip SACD's, if they have the right players. There are a few devices that can be "hacked" to rip SACDs directly to DSD. 

 

And no, I didn't spend a day finding that list I provided. Just minutes. I'm not in Austalia, so our time zones don't match up too well. It was a simple search. And I did check, those are all albums recorded originally in DSD. Several hundred more at native DSD. And more at other sites. 

 

[georgehifi]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

There's also thousands of albums originally recorded to tape that have been directly remastered to DSD. Not junk, either, but famous, classic albums. Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson,  The Rolling Stones, classic jazz, etc. Some of it is available for download. Lots of classic jazz and classic rock and pop. Hundreds of albums. A lot of those analog>DSD remasters are the best sounding version of that album around, IMO.  Take a quick look at acousticsounds.com or findhdmusic.com. I bet even you could find some albums in DSD you'd be willing to listen to. 

 

Keep your hat on mate, no need to get so fired up, but sorry your not going to convince me  EG: that a pcm remastered and then converted to DSD classic Bob Dylan is going to sound better. For a start just compare the compression of the dynamic range of most remastered re-issues. But then looking at your signature component listing maybe you can't.

 The R2R multibit crew know what I'm on about, also higher end vinyl guys, but then they have other issues they live with, surface noise and channel separation.   

 

 

Cheers George  

Edited July 13, 2017 by georgehifi

[georgehifi]

 

Here's a couple of classics, I listened to last night, note how the untouched original pcm ones, the way they originally mixed and wanted you to hear it have the better dynamic range, compared to the usually later "abused" re-mastered downloads that have had the dynamic life sucked from of them, good for the car or i-pods where there's high levels of background noise.

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Sade&album=Diamond+Life

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=ben+Harper&album=Welcome+to+the+Cruel+World

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Norah+Jones&album=Day+Breaks

 

Cheers George

Edited July 14, 2017 by georgehifi

[firedog]

10 hours ago, georgehifi said:

 

Keep your hat on mate, no need to get so fired up, but sorry your not going to convince me  EG: that a pcm remastered and then converted to DSD classic Bob Dylan is going to sound better. For a start just compare the compression of the dynamic range of most remastered re-issues. But then looking at your signature component listing maybe you can't.

 The R2R multibit crew know what I'm on about, also higher end vinyl guys, but then they have other issues they live with, surface noise and channel separation.   

 

 

Cheers George  

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to get you to stop creating alternate facts and misinforming readers of this forum. Your "EG" is irrelevant to the discussion, as it doesn't apply.

 

Again, I'm talking about albums recorded in DSD or converted directly to DSD from tape, as I stated repeatedly. If you are unaware, e.g., Sony made thousands of DSD archives of albums directly from tape, not from PCM. Please point out to me a specific album I mentioned that is DSD sourced from PCM. You  keep making claims about the source of  DSD albums which simply aren't true in the cases I'm talking about and in hundreds of others. Instead of being entrenched in a false narrative without basis in fact, YOU need to take the time to find out the facts.

 

You also resort to insulting my system (which you haven't heard) and my abilities to hear dynamic compression (which is irrelevant to the discussion and another red herring argument you've thrown in to change the topic). You know nothing about the specific re-issues I've mentioned, but you imply they are volume compressed. 

Just FYI, my system is new and I listened for years on a high quality conventional system. Several things I can assure you of:

All those albums I talked about I've listened to on expensive conventional systems and my present one. 

I know all about compression of dynamic range and remasters. But guess what? It doesn't happen on all of them. And unlike you I don't assume something is volume compressed before hearing it myself or checking databses like the dr-loudnesswar database. 

 

I get that you are one of the people who decides how equipment sounds before you've heard it, based on technological prejudices.  I get that you think  no system based on Class D can sound good. Your taste is your taste. But it is no more than that. Your taste doesn't create facts about the accuracy or resolving power of a system. I'm willing to bet that my system is more resolving and accurate than about 99.5% of all systems, no matter their price or technology. 

It would also be nice if no matter what your opinion of someone"s system, you don't convert your opinion of it into insults about what a person can or can't hear. 

 

The facts of our  little exchange show two things: a) that your claims made about the availability and provenance of DSD recordings are demonstrably incorrect; and b) that instead of responding to facts presented in a discussion that disprove your claims, you result to additional baseless claims and insults. 

 

So I guess your statement "sorry, your not going to convince me" is true...but not for the reason you intended.

[georgehifi]

 

No use flogging a dead horse, maybe your MQA will fix it via temporal lobing, NOT.   

Edited July 14, 2017 by georgehifi

[firedog]

Hey just got the MQA capable layer to see what it sounds like. Cost me about $125USD.

 

Conclusion: doesn't do too much: some albums sounded a bit better, some a bit worse, some about the same. But you can't know for sure if the MQA and non-MQA versions come from the same source, so in the end it's no different than hearing different remasters of any album. Yes, I know about the 2L tracks and a  few others made specifically for comparison. But I wasn't interested in that. Wanted to hear what actual albums sounded like vs their MQA versions. Hence the uncertainty about the source of the various remasters.

Certainly didn't hear anything that would make me want to buy a system/DAC because it is MQA certified. 

[frankn]

From Stockfisch Records - A company who releases very well recorded music, sometimes CD(I assume PCM), sometimes SACD, vinyl, With a good (great?) musician lineup. They have started a 'new' format based on DSD.

It's interesting - I'll have to get a copy of some of the music.  Personally I don't care if music is recorded in PCM or DSD (and I agree with George that there is much less true DSD recordings than PCM however that is changing as the recording/mixing/mastering software in DSD has become available/affordable with improvements in computers/hardware).  There are more and more remasters starting from analogue and going straight to DSD but it does take time. 

I think there is more true DSD music out there than George makes out and of course it is very personal as to what is good music or not so claims that a formats catalogue is "rubbish" is silly. It's just not to your taste. 

Trying to narrow down whether one format or another is the best is fraught with difficulty, even if you have access to the same source for mixing and mastering you have to contend with how your player plays back the format. I don't have a player that has individual but equably capable circuitry to unsure the PCM or SACD format is maintained before the final D2A conversion.  

I think we are very lucky to have such a lot of music that is well mixed/mastered or being carefully remastered and released on very good formats and have DACs that are capable of digging so far into the performances for less and less money!

 

MQA - who knows. I'd prefer to see more open access to the original data.  

 

 

A new audio format: the „DMM-CD/SACD“

Using the best possible components, we play back the signal from the freshly cut groove. The components used are: an EMT TSD-15 Pick-up, a factory built special version of EMT’s legendary Broadcast TONDOSE TSD-15 and incorporates a diamond made from a square natural rod. This diamond is refined with a highly sophisticated shape with multiple facets resulting in a frontal parabola measuring 17 x 25 µ. This diamond quality secures not only very little distortion, but also very low FIM (Frequency Intermodulation Distortion). Moreover we decided to use an EMT 997 pick up arm and a top of the range EMT JPA66 valve pre-amplifier. With critical listening tests, this combination has proven to us to be the optimal chain when it comes to obtaining a sound as close as possible to the master.

The output of the JPA66 cutting curve equalizer transfers the analog signal to the A/D converter, a "Meitner EMM Labs adc 8 MK IV". This is still regarded as a reference for the best possible conversion to the 1-bit Direct Stream Digital format. The DSD signal is then recorded at a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz on to our SADiE DSD8 mastering system. Later, on the finished Hybrid-SACD, you will find this true 1-bit DSD layer and also a generated CD format at 16-bit/44,1kHz.

 

To enhance the tonal quality of the DMM transfer for the DMM-CD, we cut the music programme at 45 rpm, and basically only use the area between the two zero crossings of the cartridge arm. This is the area where the geometry of the pick-up arm is optimal. However, this decision costs a few copper blanks more, as it reduces the running time per side as opposed to the pressed vinyl LP.

With this new sophisticated process, a new digital recording media (DMM-CD) has emerged retaining the original sound of a Vinyl-LP but without the unwanted side effects. The DMM-CD/SACD gives you the direct sound of the DMM Copper cut - without having to go through the stages of pressing a record.

Depending on the quality of your D/A converter, you will experience a new listening pleasure when comparing our "DMM-CD/SACD" with a correspondingly pressed vinyl record. Certainly it will be an emotional decision!

You can view a short movie about creating a DMM-CD/SACD and about more technical details on the Stockfisch YouTube-Channel.

---

LINKS

• Stockfisch-Shop
• Guestbook
• Facebook
• Youtube-Channel
• Deutsch

---

INFO

Die Hybrid-SACDs include a 16bit hybrid layer and can therefore be played on any CD-Player! • SACD stereo sound requires SACD player for playback.
 

These releases are available for you in our professional online shopping-cart system. Payable with credit-cards or PayPal - of course via safe SSL connection. Normally orders will be dispatched the next working day.

up

 

[georgehifi]

 

Here is a snippet from Grim Audio's white paper on Native DSD

done by Eelco Grimm (sound engineer) & Peter van Willenswaard (digital design guru)

 

Quote:

"The recordings on SACD’s and DSD internet downloads, the vast majority is not pure, native DSD but has seen many different phases, starting perhaps as 5 bit inside the A-to-D converter, being converted to 24 bit PCM for editing and ending as 1 bit DSD after mastering. Meaning they all have undergone one or more conversions including going back to 1 bit DSD, which is not a lossless process in itself.  If you want maximum sound quality once a recording is in a PCM format, you’re better off listening to it in PCM than to a flawed DSD transformation of the latter."

 

Cheers George

Edited July 15, 2017 by georgehifi

[Guest scumbag]

The combative nature of this thread and others is the reason why I don't generally participate in discussions on SNA any more.

 

http://www.weiss.ch/assets/content/41/white-paper-on-DSD.pdf

"What is better?
The discussion whether DSD is better than PCM is moot. DSD is another variant to store music, like PCM, MP3, magnetic tape, vinyl etc. All formats are fine as long as there are people preferring one over the other for whatever reasons. A matter of taste or practical reasons as with MP3 for instance."

[georgehifi]

Know little of these guys, what they said in their summary. Even though the dac they make have hybrid converters having "Over-sampling multi-bit sigma-delta converters" probably something like the PCM1794, so they "maybe" can do dsd because of the delta sigma part.

 

"Technically speaking, PCM from like 88.2kHz /24 bit up, is definitively better than DSD. There are attempts to enhance DSD by rising the sampling rate from 2.8824 MHz to 5.6448 MHz or even 11.2896 MHz. Some problems of DSD may be reduced with such measures, but the 1 bit quantization problem cannot be eliminated."

 

"Very few DSD - D/A chips work on native DSD data. Often the DSD signal gets converted to PCM before conversion. One popular example which does that is the currently very popular DAC chip ES9018."

 

 

Cheers George