Harbeths or PMCs Confused!

[MusicHaven]

Confused state!

 

Made a long trip to hear Harbeth's as this was on my shortlist against the ATCs. ATC's now dropped off the list and now its PMC twenty5 series against the Harbeths.

 

Listened to Harbeth's (30.1 and SHL5 plus 40th anniversary model) extensively with Classical, acoustics, Jazz and Instruments. The mids to upper frequencies were excellent and very natural however lacked the bottom end. Sounded more like planars to be honest it was that clear but never fatiguing. FYI I couldn't pinpoint huge difference between the two models when listening to the same tracks and switching one after another in A/B comparison.

 

Now cant do back to back listening against the PMCs (5.22 and 5.23) but heard them separately and the obvious difference is bottom end.

 

In my 3m x 3m room not sure what would be better and I like them both for different reasons.

 

The other side of the spectrum I will have Rega Elicit R (change from Anthems) with Cambridge Audio 851N streamer.

 

My question is did anyone had a chance to compare similar brands or these specific models and what were your preferences. Obviously the amps and source matters as well.

 

Not sure which way to go??????

 

Thanks

[AussieMick]

I can tell you the PMC 25.22 is a more detailed and open speaker than the 22.23. The 23 is more laid back. I suppose it depends on the presentation you like. In a 3m x 3m room you won't need huge bass, just good control.


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[MusicHaven]

Hi AussieMick,

I agree with your experience on 25.22 and 25.23.

[goldiver]

For a 3 x 3m room I'd be looking at Legend's Kurre 8 standmounts. Cheaper, and very competitive with Harbeth and the PMC. And I should know: my previous two speakers were Harbeth monitors and slimline PMC floorstanders.

 

I have a slightly larger space than you (4.5 x 5) and from my experience most PMCs will overpower rooms this size.

Edited June 27, 2017 by goldiver

[mwhouston]

I had a brief listen to a friends Harbeth 40.2 driven by my DIY T3 Tripath class D mono-blocks (150W) he purchased from me. He streamed Tidal with a Ayon DAC.

 

It has to up with the very best sound I have ever heard from any system. We played only classical. The Sound stage was ridiculous and the "we were there" factor was real. I could go on and on but I loved the Harbeths and are convinced they must be one of the best speakers of all time. 

[blybo]

Something most people don't do when demo'ing is low volume. If your wife is anything like mine, this is a critical test.  I'm told both ATC and PMC need the wick cranked a bit to get them singing. Just something to keep in mind.

 

Can't comment on Harbeth though.

[MusicHaven]

Hi Blybo good point. Yes agree did a low listening test, PMC sing well mid to higher volume as the bass become substantial as well.

 

Bass is good though on these things that's why little concerned that I might miss it from time to time if I go with Harbeths.

Edited June 27, 2017 by MusicHaven

[the sound of Tao]

47 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

I had a brief listen to a friends Harbeth 40.2 driven by my DIY T3 Tripath class D mono-blocks (150W) he purchased from me. He streamed Tidal with a Ayon DAC.

 

It has to up with the very best sound I have ever heard from any system. We played only classical. The Sound stage was ridiculous and the "we were there" factor was real. I could go on and on but I loved the Harbeths and are convinced they must be one of the best speakers of all time. 

+1 on the 40.2s. I had a pair here for a while to try out and absolutely loved them. I am still keeping my Maggie 20.7s for the listening room but have been looking around for a while for a second set up in the open living space downstairs. My head said be sensible and get the 30.1s and I have really loved these for the last six months without a moment's regret. So easy to listen to, one of my favourite box speakers ever, you just never tire of listening to them. I may still end up with 40.2s just purely as they really did some other level of magic again but in truth the 30.1s really have a lot of that going on as well. Great speakers!

Edited June 27, 2017 by the sound of Tao

[AussieMick]

One of the reasons I liked the 22 over the 23 was that it was so much better at low volume. Wigged out, too.


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[Qwertyqaz]

48 minutes ago, blybo said:

Something most people don't do when demo'ing is low volume. If your wife is anything like mine, this is a critical test.  I'm told both ATC and PMC need the wick cranked a bit to get them singing. Just something to keep in mind.

 

Can't comment on Harbeth though.

That is so not true, you have to listen to my ATC's

[blybo]

Just now, Qwertyqaz said:

That is so not true, you have to listen to my ATC's

 

Maybe not all models but I've been told that even by dealers of ATC, and PMC to a lessor degree.

 

Glad you are happy with yours. What do you call low volume btw? Have you used a db meter? I'm talking around 50-55db, and even my Spatials, although good, don't really boggie in the bass department at that level, so I use my sub almost like a loudness button

[Qwertyqaz]

1 minute ago, blybo said:

 

Maybe not all models but I've been told that even by dealers of ATC, and PMC to a lessor degree.

 

Glad you are happy with yours. What do you call low volume btw? Have you used a db meter? I'm talking around 50-55db, and even my Spatials, although good, don't really boggie in the bass department at that level, so I use my sub almost like a loudness button

60-70 db

[blybo]

1 minute ago, Qwertyqaz said:

60-70 db

Oh how I wish my wife considered that low volume . She doesn't like to have to raise her voice to be heard and if the kids are ever ignoring her it's my music that gets blaimed before them, usually followed with one of these in my direction

 

Which in our house is simpley known as giving a Kermit.

[Guest rogerthat]

Be very careful about overloading a 3m x 3m room. I have standmounts in my 5m x 3.5m room and they can easily overload the room. I had to use bass traps to assist with the room modes and shedloads of absorption panels to balance things out.

 

The room modes you will get in a 3x3 room are going to suck out any bass you think you are going to get with bigger speakers. So unless you want to be permanently dissatisfied with bass performance OR want to spend $$$ on room treatment, go for Harbeth P3ESR and never look back!

[rantan]

8 minutes ago, blybo said:

 

Maybe not all models but I've been told that even by dealers of ATC, and PMC to a lessor degree.

 

Glad you are happy with yours. What do you call low volume btw? Have you used a db meter? I'm talking around 50-55db, and even my Spatials, although good, don't really boggie in the bass department at that level, so I use my sub almost like a loudness button

 

50db is like a very quiet library with people turning over pages carefully.

 

I think I would prefer to forgo the music at those levels

[blybo]

6 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

50db is like a very quiet library with people turning over pages carefully.

 

I think I would prefer to forgo the music at those levels

 

I think our room with out music etc is around 40-42db so pretty quiet, but I'm always trying to discreetly bump up volume. It's probably more like 55db usually. I really only get cranking when SWMBO is out or when she is putting the kids to bed each evening as we usually have a little Sonos play3 upstairs playing the Sing soundtrack or similar for them to fall sleep to so I can get away with 70db for an hour or so downstairs but usually cleaning kitchen sweeping floors etc, not critical listening.

 

Sorry for the

Edited June 27, 2017 by blybo

[MusicHaven]

56 minutes ago, rogerthat said:

Be very careful about overloading a 3m x 3m room. I have standmounts in my 5m x 3.5m room and they can easily overload the room. I had to use bass traps to assist with the room modes and shedloads of absorption panels to balance things out.

 

The room modes you will get in a 3x3 room are going to suck out any bass you think you are going to get with bigger speakers. So unless you want to be permanently dissatisfied with bass performance OR want to spend $$$ on room treatment, go for Harbeth P3ESR and never look back!

 

The smaller brother is sealed design didn't listen to it. Does it have better bass than 30.1s?

[Guest rogerthat]

The bass it has may be a bit tighter because it is sealed but it does have much less extension.

 

30.1 Frequency response
50Hz - 20kHz +/-3dB

 

P3ESR Frequency response
75Hz - 20kHz ±-3dB

Edited June 27, 2017 by rogerthat

[rantan]

15 minutes ago, rogerthat said:

The bass it has may be a bit tighter because it is sealed but it does has less extension.

 

30.1 Frequency response
50Hz - 20kHz +/-3dB

 

P3ESR Frequency response
75Hz - 20kHz ±-3dB

 

Probably the understatement of the year

 

[Guest rogerthat]

2 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

Probably the understatement of the year

 

 

Yes you are totally right. Editing now.

[pops9745]

I tried 30.1s in my room - which is approx  3 x 3 and I could not control the bass - just overloaded the room. I ended up with Evolution Accoustics Micro Ones which still give me all the bass I want (although I don't like a lot - hate the "boom" and worry about the neighbours) but allow me to play as loud as I can stand when I want to. 

[Tweaky]

The Harbeth's are designed as Studio Monitors, as in the BBC spec's, which means they are voiced to sound at their best at around the 85db mark, they will do louder, but the bass will compress.

You can get around this by adding a subwoofer, just for the lowest octave, this also opens up the mid bass of the Harbeths if not required to reproduce the low bass.

 

The truly wonderful thing about the SHL5's is that you don't need to turn the volume up, you'll be able to hear all the detail, with amazing tonality at a far lesser volume you would need with the PMC's or ATC [maybe active versions might get close to the Harbeths]

 

To be honest, running SHL'5 or 30.1's in a 3m X 3m room if really pushing it, I think you're going to need some pretty hefty bass traps unless you listen to Dub or Reggae.

The only reason I say that is because I've been a Harbeth SHL 5 owner for nearly 10 years now, and my room is 3m X 5m [sort of L shaped] which I can get away with, as it's pretty heavily damped by two large leather recliners sitting between the speakers and the back wall, so they work as bass traps

I wouldn't change the Harbeth's for anything, as everything else I've heard might do one thing slightly better, but equally falters elsewhere, nothing has the complete package like Harbeth speakers, and once you have that you realize that 'IS' what you wanted all along, the search is over.

 

If I were you I'd get the exact measurements of your room, and run them through a free online software [link below] to find out what your room modes are going to be, then work out just what it will take to reduce them.

http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm

 

You might get more bass with the PMC's, but it's going to be hard to control either way.

[Krispy Audio]

If I can just correct you on one thing, the Harbeths were originally designed as studio monitors and voiced as such, but these days they are split into the pro and domestic editions (e.g. 30.1 Pro and 30.1). The domestic versions include redesigned crossovers to perform better than the pro versions in a typical home environment. 

[MusicHaven]

Basically its just one of the smaller bedrooms I'm converting into dedicated listening rig. Interms of placement and playing around with room treatment would not be a big issue.

 

Personally I dig the shape and size of 30.1s on the dedicated stands and in person they look marvellous. I think I can pull  it off with low to medium listening levels!

 

I'm now wondering whether this is better than PMC twenty5.22 as I cant remember all the details but clarity and natural voicing comes to mind when I think of Harbeths and big bass with PMCs.

 

 

[Qwertyqaz]

What about the kef LS50's that will definitely suit your needs.