davewantsmoore Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Karl Rand said: How many audio retailers have the guts to have on display stock with the case removed? %99.99 of people (including the ones who think they do) can not draw sensible conclusions from what they would see. Due to this.... it means most manufacturers /retailers won't want to do it ..... and means some DO want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) One classic case of the point in question is Naim and their power supply units ( flat cap, hi cap etc ). IIRC this one sells for about $1800. Best plan is to just drink the kool aid and not look inside Edited May 21, 2017 by rantan 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 42 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: My understanding (spoiler alert) is that Keith wasn't impressed with the sound ..... and naturally, as people do, started to speculate why. Hit the nail on the head. When your $1500 RME sounds better than your $14000 NADAC, you have to wonder why. When I opened up the NADAC, I saw that they were using a switch mode power supply. I bought an Uptone LPSU to bypass the SMPS, and it made quite a huge difference. It would have cost them $30-40 to use a LPSU and they did not do it. And guess what, they now make an outboard power supply for the NADAC. I haven't enquired how much it costs yet, but I will bet it will be umpteen thousand dollars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergest Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, Karl Rand said: How many audio retailers have the guts to have on display stock with the case removed? How many audioporn magazines supply clear images of the internals of electronics they review? Obviously some of you here would know what you're looking if you had the the lid off before purchase but what percentage of those with enough $$$ to buy into the high end do? I suggest manufacturers have a fair idea and act accordingly . Also how often do the audioporn magazine reviewers give a rough estimate of the cost of internal components ? Never as far back as I can recall. Interesting to see T+A at the Munich show have the guts of all their gear on display. Must be confident it all adds up. http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?11530-2017??????High-End???????-Munich-High-End-Show&p=231785#post231785 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Just now, Hergest said: Must be confident it all adds up. Given that %99.99 of people don't know ..... then wouldn't it be a case of them hoping that the people who don't know, draw conclusions about the sound based on 'ooooh shiny' ?! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergest Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Just now, davewantsmoore said: Given that %99.99 of people don't know ..... then wouldn't it be a case of them hoping that the people who don't know, draw conclusions about the sound based on 'ooooh shiny' ?! Or maybe they will audition it first to draw conclusions about the sound? I would also add that maybe 99.99% of people don't actually care what's inside if it sounds good? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Just now, Hergest said: Or maybe they will audition it first to draw conclusions about the sound? Of course .... but maybe which ones they choose to audition.... or maybe the results of said audition.... can be influenced by looks, or other marketing expectations about the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 322 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Mate, check out what's under the hood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davm Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 One hi-end company who like to show what their stuff looks like under the hood is Accuphase. It certainly looks 'shiny' to me. Then again, they're distinguished by publishing guaranteed specifications alongside nudie photos, which to my mind adds to trust about the quality of their offerings. On the other hand, their pricing inside and outside Japan does suggest they could be cheaper in most markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 48 minutes ago, Keith_W said: Hit the nail on the head. When your $1500 RME sounds better than your $14000 NADAC, you have to wonder why. When I opened up the NADAC, I saw that they were using a switch mode power supply. I bought an Uptone LPSU to bypass the SMPS, and it made quite a huge difference. It would have cost them $30-40 to use a LPSU and they did not do it. And guess what, they now make an outboard power supply for the NADAC. I haven't enquired how much it costs yet, but I will bet it will be umpteen thousand dollars. Thats just plain fraud mate. You should show the HiFI press this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) It's all good and said if they show you what's under the hood. what about manufacturers who remove the identifications on semiconductor devices and other components to hide there origin. There's a few of these around. Then there's manufacturers that have decided to have there logo printed on the devices. God help you if these manufacturers go bust, not that they ever will with the RRP they charge. and as SMD takes over you will never know whether that's a carbon or a metal film resistor. Edited May 21, 2017 by Addicted to music 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: what about manufacturers who remove the identifications on semiconductor devices and other components to hide there origin. I see absolutely zero problem with this. If people were to know what the IC was ..... %99.99 of them would draw incorrect conclusions based on that information..... and in almost every sensible scenario, it isn't required to know what the IC is, to evaluate the detailed performance of the (IC or the) product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinilink Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 ME 1500 amp had a perspex cover for full viewing of internal components/design during showcasing with Pirimi HiFi at Coronation Club in Burwood in late 90s iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Going back a while Cambridge audio used to display their products with a clear lid. They looks fantastic and sounded okay but, reliability was terrible and when it did fail no tech would want to look at them. Never again for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 32 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: I see absolutely zero problem with this. If people were to know what the IC was ..... %99.99 of them would draw incorrect conclusions based on that information..... and in almost every sensible scenario, it isn't required to know what the IC is, to evaluate the detailed performance of the (IC or the) product. Explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 There is so much more to the cost of producing an item than the parts...parts are relatively minor once you include labour and product development. The distributor takes their cut and then the retailer and suddenly something costs at least 10-20 times the parts cost (because everyone takes a percentage not a fixed rate of course!). Having built and currently building some high $ cost power supplies and amplifiers I have a good idea what an over-spec box costs to build in one-off quantities when not trying to skimp and save on parts and when not including labour and research and product development as a cost centre...I would never buy it retail...I could never afford to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaynin Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 hours ago, vinilink said: ME 1500 amp had a perspex cover for full viewing of internal components/design during showcasing with Pirimi HiFi at Coronation Club in Burwood in late 90s iirc. Arthur Rappos currently does this with his Elektra amps too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted May 21, 2017 Volunteer Share Posted May 21, 2017 What about thousands of dollars for power cables 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Hergest said: would also add that maybe 99.99% of people don't actually care what's inside if it sounds good? That makes me .01% Stump 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Karl Rand Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: What about thousands of dollars for power cables What about expensive power amplifers that require expensive external power conditioners to function at their optimum? Edited May 22, 2017 by Karl Rand Spelling correction, if you must know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Karl Rand Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 41 minutes ago, Kaynin said: Arthur Rappos currently does this with his Elektra amps too. It all looks gorgeous but what about RFI etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaynin Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Karl Rand said: It all looks gorgeous but what about RFI etc? It's for display only, they're not sold like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crisis Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 I have been reading the story of Schiit on another forum and there is an interesting section about the cost of production in particular that of the case work. I will put a bit here as well as the link. Okay, so how did we end up with Schiit’s simple, minimalistically-elegant chassis? It’s almost entirely a story of economics. To make something that would compete with Chinese prices, we needed a cheap box. Period. That immediately threw out a couple of things: • Lots of little pieces and fancy cosmetics, like Chinese tube amps • Anything machined out of a solid piece of aluminum—you don’t want to know what that costs when you aren’t making Apple-esque quantities in China That’s why we soon decided to use the chassis itself as a heatsink—economics. The problem with that was that it killed the old “steel clamshell and front panel” design. Steel doesn’t work very well as a heatsink. The chassis would have to be aluminum. And it would have to be fairly thick aluminum, too, so it could effectively spread the heat. At first, I thought about extrusions. One catch: what do you extrude? • The outside perimeter, like we originally planned? Wow, that’s a BIG extrusion. Sure, you can do it. Bring $30,000 or so. No. • An L-shape for top and front? Nope, not enough surface area to get rid of the heat. And it’s still a big extrusion. No deal. • A U-shape for front, top, and bottom? Now you have the area you need, but now you have to deal with extrusion tolerances. The open end of the “U” might be too far open—or too closed. Notgonnahappen.com. But a U-shape…that could be bent from sheet aluminum. And it could be grained before bending. And you could precisely control the tolerances. And, combined with a steel inner “sled,” you had a simple two-piece chassis. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHC Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Nothing really new here. The famous rip-off case was a few years ago when Lexicon took the Oppo 83 (a US$500 blu ray player) and re-branded as their own player and charge its customers US$3500. Apart from the chassis they are identical player. http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=4051 The other thing worth nothing from the Lexicon cautionary tale was that the rip-off was exposed by hi-fi reviewers. They in fact exposed the deceptions by some review magazines like Home Theater Review that tried to argue the Lexicon was better than the Oppo, when in fact they should be identical. So one cannot simply paint all hi-fi reviewers by the same brush; some have more integrity than the others. Some reviewers like 6moons does provide photos of the internal components of their reviewed equipment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guru Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 43 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: What about thousands of dollars for power cables Would you like to borrow some one day that may make you smile and your wallet constrict tighter than a fish's rectum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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