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Power over Ethernet and noise


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Hi I am looking to employ a POE system in my home network. (Unify AC PRO and security cameras)

I have built a cabana and it has cat5e Ethernet cabling. I want to run roon remotely to a MR or a SOTM SMS200. 

 

My question is how much noise does a POE system inject? What happens to speed of transfers and will there be a degrading in sq?

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the suggestion but I kinda want to avoid a POE system if its gunna kill the music? An expensive experiment to get the Unifi stuff to try out...

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Guest rmpfyf
29 minutes ago, 1224 said:

Thanks for the suggestion but I kinda want to avoid a POE system if its gunna kill the music? An expensive experiment to get the Unifi stuff to try out...

 

PoE only runs where power is injected. There is no requirement to run PoE to your audio system networks endpoints, there's nothing to be gained. So have your router switch patch into a PoE injector, then to your cameras. This won't have anything to do with your audio network cabling.

 

This said all Ethernet carries noise. If you want to cut that (and you do), run a Ethernet isolator as suggested. 

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Guest rmpfyf
1 hour ago, Qwertyqaz said:

even better get Wifi connectivity through wireless access points.

 

Not ideal for SQ in a reference CA system - EMI is what you're trying to eradicate, and wireless radio(s) don't help.

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I spent a lot of time trying to locate the cause of intermittent  pops and crackles associated with an Air Tight phono stage, swapping tubes etc, and even taking the phono to our local tube guru to check the circuits. Eventually I found the problem ... POE. I now happily use wireless remote extenders.

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15 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Not ideal for SQ in a reference CA system - EMI is what you're trying to eradicate, and wireless radio(s) don't help.

Well then you need to do some reading, The router is lot more noisy then what you can expect in the wifi radio.

Auralic know a thing or too about digital audio right?

They recommend using wifi rather than Ethernet for clean noise free input.

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Guest rmpfyf
1 hour ago, Qwertyqaz said:

Well then you need to do some reading, The router is lot more noisy then what you can expect in the wifi radio.

Auralic know a thing or too about digital audio right?

They recommend using wifi rather than Ethernet for clean noise free input.

 

Read a few posts up - I've recommended an isolator, which is what I use. This is better than wifi, and better than a wired connection. I'd wager Auralic might know a great deal but their will to include a $200 isolator with their kit is probably low (against a $5 WiFi chip and antenna).

 

When you can get a good isolator a good deal cheaper, jump on it. I did. 

 

Auralic is free to recommend whatever they do. I just test it, run it, report on it. Low noise isn't the only thing audio needs, it needs throughput and low latency too. Yet to see wireless beat this much. 

 

(BTW their list of 'recommended' WiFi hardware is laughable http://support.auralic.com/hc/en-us/articles/206072178-Choose-a-Good-WiFi-Router). 

Edited by rmpfyf
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28 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Read a few posts up - I've recommended an isolator, which is what I use. This is better than wifi, and better than a wired connection. I'd wager Auralic might know a great deal but their will to include a $200 isolator with their kit is probably low (against a $5 WiFi chip and antenna).

 

When you can get a good isolator a good deal cheaper, jump on it. I did. 

 

Auralic is free to recommend whatever they do. I just test it, run it, report on it. Low noise isn't the only thing audio needs, it needs throughput and low latency too. Yet to see wireless beat this much. 

 

(BTW their list of 'recommended' WiFi hardware is laughable http://support.auralic.com/hc/en-us/articles/206072178-Choose-a-Good-WiFi-Router). 

I respect your view on the topic, but Music doesn't require high bandwidth or throughput let alone suffering from latency issues.

I believe what you are trying to do is over engineer a perfectly good solution, put the money towards some nice music.

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Guest rmpfyf
1 minute ago, Qwertyqaz said:

I respect your view on the topic, but Music doesn't require high bandwidth or throughput let alone suffering from latency issues.

I believe what you are trying to do is over engineer a perfectly good solution, put the money towards some nice music.

 

Depends what you're streaming (for music) - some bandwidth rates are high for wireless transmission. Wireless is inherently more latent than wired. Latency is not good, particularly when variable. There are ways to deal with it (buffering whatever). There's nothing new here. Many applications face similar challenges, not just music, and the solution (isolation) isn't new. Don't take my advice, plenty of pro audio/mastering peeps have a bit to say too - the music you're streaming over WiFi was probably mastered over isolated Ethernet. Or take Auralic's advice. Whatever works for you.

 

If the music sounds good for you, great. ~$100 on a good Ethernet isolator sounds great here, better than wired and (considerably) better than WiFi. Don't like the result? Sell it, get your money back.

 

Deals with the OP's issue too - his proposed system simply needs isolation.

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8 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Depends what you're streaming (for music) - some bandwidth rates are high for wireless transmission. Wireless is inherently more latent than wired. Latency is not good, particularly when variable. There are ways to deal with it (buffering whatever). There's nothing new here. Many applications face similar challenges, not just music, and the solution (isolation) isn't new. Don't take my advice, plenty of pro audio/mastering peeps have a bit to say too - the music you're streaming over WiFi was probably mastered over isolated Ethernet. Or take Auralic's advice. Whatever works for you.

 

If the music sounds good for you, great. ~$100 on a good Ethernet isolator sounds great here, better than wired and (considerably) better than WiFi. Don't like the result? Sell it, get your money back.

 

Deals with the OP's issue too - his proposed system simply needs isolation.

What would you recommend for an Ethernet isolator?

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Guest rmpfyf
17 minutes ago, Nap250 said:

What would you recommend for an Ethernet isolator?

 

I use one of these and it works a treat http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Baaske-MI-1005-Medical-Ethernet-Isolator-Ferrite-Beaded-RJ45-Isolation-Cable-/142323550095

 

Have built more elaborate systems - you can go fibre if super serious (for a good bit less than a SoTM CAT6 isolator).

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Guest Eggcup The Daft
20 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

I use one of these and it works a treat http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Baaske-MI-1005-Medical-Ethernet-Isolator-Ferrite-Beaded-RJ45-Isolation-Cable-/142323550095

 

Have built more elaborate systems - you can go fibre if super serious (for a good bit less than a SoTM CAT6 isolator).

Simply placing a small switch close to the streamer (actually, an Oppo 105) end and connecting with a 2m cable (rather than a straight 10m lead) worked for me in controlling noise. Ethernet noise is generally related to the length of cable, and small amounts of noise should not get through an Ethernet port in any case. In case of audio engineers not paying proper attention to this, the isolator looks like an improved solution and I've noted it in case my next streamer/DAC reacts to lower noise levels.

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On 08/05/2017 at 10:53 AM, 1224 said:

Thanks for the suggestion but I kinda want to avoid a POE system if its gunna kill the music? An expensive experiment to get the Unifi stuff to try out...

 

You worry about this needlessly. Put in a POE switch to power the cameras, it aint gunna kill the music.

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  • 1 month later...

I've had really bad experience with POE. I have my squeezebox server in the living room and a squeezebox touch in the study nearby. As i sometimes wanted to stream hi res flac files i thought to use the POE to get a better throughput than wireless. It all seems fine until I listen to music with headphones. I could now hear really annoying noises in the background. Its not terribly loud but because I listen to alot of classical music and especially chamber music I could hear it and it drove me mad. Eventually I just disconnected the POE and attached a harddrive to the Touch when i listened to hi res files or just stream wireless for normal flac files.

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6 hours ago, Gee Emm said:

You guys are saying PoE, but I read it as EoP.

 

Which is it?

 

I think EoP is Ethernet over power. Data thru power cables? Probably not a good idea to be injecting anything into the power cuts re noise. 

I was questioning PoE which is power over Ethernet. Some devices i.e. IP security cameras can be powered over their Ethernet connections. 

 

Does it introduce noise? Not so much I can tell but then I've got my dac , a 2 qute  which is factory galanivally isolated, hooked up via USB and jitterbug to a Lenovo yoga 900 laptop. Streaming data Via Wifi.  ( from a unify AC pro access point).

 

I was watching a computer Hifi basics vid from 2016 with Steve Silberman from Audioquest. In it, he suggested that particularly for streaming music that putting a Ethernet to Fiber/ optical media converter and fiber to Ethernet converter in to the system will greatly lower the noise floor.

 

So that's the plan.

Two of these

https://www.startech.com/au/Networking-IO/Media-Converters/Fiber/fiber-media-converter-850nm-mm-lc~MCM1110MMLC

 

One of these 

Sotm SMS 200

 

but now I've seen this.....

https://cruxaudio.com/products/sms-200ultra-audio-network-player-mods

 

mmmmm, what to do

 

 

 

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Guest rmpfyf

As per the second post - one Ethernet isolator will do. Doesn't need to be so expensive.

 

Helps with PoE and also just an Ethernet cable passing by anything with EMI (like a power cable).

 

 

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