3D Damping Disks

[Guest scumbag]

4 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

@scumbag

 

You mentioned:

 http://www.megasorber.com/4fold-approach/vibration-damping.html 

Thats great mate. Now please refer me if you can to an independent test that was conducted by a study group

which has no vested interest.

These organisations are great at showing *their own* testing. 

Geeze, so they're like the cigarette companies now. You really are drawing a long bow here. In order to disprove that some $69 "tweaks" don't work you're basically holding to question the work of reputable manufacturer? 

[rantan]

 

I think if he dropped a brick on his foot he wouldn't believe it was painful unless he had 25 others blindfolded who also had bricks dropped on their feet and experienced some discomfort.

I guess the collective scream would be discounted as an expectation bias because everyone thinks if you drop a brick on your foot   that you will experience pain to some degree

 

Bloody biases, pffft!

Edited April 9, 2017 by rantan

[rantan]

Just now, rantan said:

 

I think if he dropped a brick on his foot he wouldn't believe it was painful unless he had 25 others blindfolded who also had bricks dropped on their feet and agreed whilst wincing

. I guess the collective scream would be discounted as an expectation bias because everyone thinks if you drop a brick on your foot   that you will experience pain to some degree

 

Bloody biases, pffft!

 

[Guest scumbag]

9 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

@scumbag

 

You mentioned:

 http://www.megasorber.com/4fold-approach/vibration-damping.html 

Thats great mate. Now please refer me if you can to an independent test that was conducted by a study group

which has no vested interest.

These organisations are great at showing *their own* testing. 

Think twice, type once.

 

http://www.megasorber.com/about.html

"Megasorber soundproofing products are tested in NATA (National Association of Testing Authorities, Australia) certified acoustic laboratories" 

https://www.nata.com.au/nata/

[sir sanders zingmore]

44 minutes ago, rantan said:

Nothing wrong with strong opinions, provided they are based, at the very least, on actual trials in a familiar system

 

Why are we so hung up on people not having an opinion unless they've tried in their system ?

[Ugly]

8 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

Why are we so hung up on people not having an opinion unless they've tried in their system ?

Agreed. I actually think they sound like an interesting tweak to try however others are free to think the exact opposite.

[rantan]

 

I plan on ordering a set tomorrow. For $88 with a money-back-guarantee, I see no reason why I shouldn't test them in my own system.

 

Then, in my oblique and hobbity way, I might be able to offer an opinion, provided I am not hung up n a coat hook and turning purple

[betty boop]

On 07/04/2017 at 8:18 PM, TerryO said:

Anyone else here tried these?

 

Guys the OP created this thread asking the above quite specific question. 

[Guest scumbag]

On 07/04/2017 at 8:18 PM, TerryO said:

Anyone else here tried these?

 

http://www.lenwallisaudio.com/products/accessories/tweaks/3d-2-constrained-layer-damping-discs

No. But I have some similar devices that are designed for use on panels that I will test for myself tomorrow. I have a  piezoelectric-tape accelerometer that I can use to measure vibrations. If I get time I'll try some before and after measurements.

Edited April 9, 2017 by scumbag

[ghost4man]

"Well I have done testing. No it wasn't DBT. Some of it was single blind and was 100% correct in short tests.

So just to get a clarification, do you

A. Not conform to the notion of constrained layer damping as a physical phenomenon?

OR

2. Not agree that constrained layer damping can have any positive effect on audio gear based on your tests.

 

Also, from your remark about "not being paid" to do a study, are you insinuating that Megasorbers' tests are not valid due to them being "paid for"?"

 

To answer 1 and 2 I am NOT suggesting that the phenomenon does NOT exist. What I am saying is that we should question whether the effort made

to reduce such an effect is sufficient to invoke change in SQ which is perceived as a benefit.

You are however seemingly making  a 1 to 1 correlation positing that the effect does exist, IS deleterious to the experience of listening to music and

finally asserting that this negative can be mitigated by this equipment.

You have directed me to where the tests take place as an appeal to authority without anything from what I can see which shows the type of testing that

is conducted and more importantly establish whether the testing is such that a random sample of people would perceive a difference.

Note what I say about perception in terms of difference as opposed to taking that one step further to recording feedback which is more positive against

the reference feedback. Where is that?

If you want to conduct any test that gain the assistance of a friend if you can with the view to ensuring that you remain unaware of what equipment if

is being used and whether or not you perceive a change.

 

 

[ABG]

@TerryO  There has been an earlier conversation about these disks 

I reported my observations there.  No doubt whatsoever that they work.  I was genuinely skeptical before listening to the difference they made and came away convinced.  

[TerryO]

..

Edited April 9, 2017 by TerryO

[TerryO]

1 hour ago, ABG said:

@TerryO  There has been an earlier conversation about these disks 

I reported my observations there.  No doubt whatsoever that they work.  I was genuinely skeptical before listening to the difference they made and came away convinced.  

 

Thank you Mark.

 

cheers Terry

[Guest scumbag]

13 hours ago, ghost4man said:

"Well I have done testing. No it wasn't DBT. Some of it was single blind and was 100% correct in short tests.

So just to get a clarification, do you

A. Not conform to the notion of constrained layer damping as a physical phenomenon?

OR

2. Not agree that constrained layer damping can have any positive effect on audio gear based on your tests.

 

Also, from your remark about "not being paid" to do a study, are you insinuating that Megasorbers' tests are not valid due to them being "paid for"?"

 

To answer 1 and 2 I am NOT suggesting that the phenomenon does NOT exist. What I am saying is that we should question whether the effort made

to reduce such an effect is sufficient to invoke change in SQ which is perceived as a benefit.

You are however seemingly making  a 1 to 1 correlation positing that the effect does exist, IS deleterious to the experience of listening to music and

finally asserting that this negative can be mitigated by this equipment.

You have directed me to where the tests take place as an appeal to authority without anything from what I can see which shows the type of testing that

is conducted and more importantly establish whether the testing is such that a random sample of people would perceive a difference.

Note what I say about perception in terms of difference as opposed to taking that one step further to recording feedback which is more positive against

the reference feedback. Where is that?

If you want to conduct any test that gain the assistance of a friend if you can with the view to ensuring that you remain unaware of what equipment if

is being used and whether or not you perceive a change.

 

 

Feels like I'm back in the Year 10 debating team.

So just to frame things in the context of the OP's question.

You do believe in constrained layer damping but you don't think itcan possibly work in this application because on some single blind tests with Toohey's beer coaster and chopping boards?

 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by scumbag

[gonefishing999]

@scumbag

Megasorber soundproofing how is this used in speaker box building?

 

Peter

[Guest scumbag]

13 minutes ago, gonefishing999 said:

@scumbag

Megasorber soundproofing how is this used in speaker box building?

 

Peter

Different products have different applications. I used this on a 3D printed set of speakers - http://www.megasorber.com.au/soundproofing-products/vibration-damping/vibration-damping-sheet-fireproof-facing.html

 

[Guest dr_carl]

12 hours ago, scumbag said:

Hang on. If vibration energy is being dissipated then it is being changed from one state to another. If it were not dissipated then it would travel back out of the devices. When vibration energy is dissipated by transferring between two materials it is converted into heat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy 

 

Hi @scumbag

Heat is a measure of particle motion. Temperature is a statistical application of that concept. Energy is used in performing work on the particles by making them move. The energy exchange mechanism in the foam is so poor that the energy is dissipated rather than transmitted. This means that the vibrations are being scattered and that the overall direction of the vibration energy is altering via refraction, causing total internal reflections between the two hard surfaces, hence trapping the vibrations in the soft 'core.' The point is that the vibrations are not transmitted through the whole 3 layer structure but confined. At this scale, particle motion is so tiny and slow that to call it heat is possible but not useful. Really you could not measure the temperature change in the foam due to the kind if frequencies and amplitudes we have here, but that's not to say it's not changing but that the scale of the change is small. Sure in a lab I could generate waves that will get a measurable temperature change in the foam given a sufficiently sensitive temperature probe of sufficiently small size but probably not if I recreated what comes out of a piece of audio hardware.

 

I hope that makes my previous comment a bit less misleading. Sorry if previous brevity glossed over the finer points.

 

BTW Wikipedia is not regarded as a reliable source of scientific information, even if it is basically correct as in this case.

[djb]

@Telecine

[Guest scumbag]

3 minutes ago, dr_carl said:

 

Hi @scumbag

Heat is a measure of particle motion. Temperature is a statistical application of that concept. Energy is used in performing work on the particles by making them move. The energy exchange mechanism in the foam is so poor that the energy is dissipated rather than transmitted. This means that the vibrations are being scattered and that the overall direction of the vibration energy is altering via refraction, causing total internal reflections between the two hard surfaces, hence trapping the vibrations in the soft 'core.' The point is that the vibrations are not transmitted through the whole 3 layer structure but confined. At this scale, particle motion is so tiny and slow that to call it heat is possible but not useful. Really you could not measure the temperature change in the foam due to the kind if frequencies and amplitudes we have here, but that's not to say it's not changing but that the scale of the change is small. Sure in a lab I could generate waves that will get a measurable temperature change in the foam given a sufficiently sensitive temperature probe of sufficiently small size but probably not if I recreated what comes out of a piece of audio hardware.

 

I hope that makes my previous comment a bit less misleading. Sorry if previous brevity glossed over the finer points.

 

BTW Wikipedia is not regarded as a reliable source of scientific information, even if it is basically correct as in this case.

Fair enough regarding wikipedia. But, regardless of the magnitude in the change in temperature, it still must happen.

[Guest scumbag]

27 minutes ago, djb said:

@Telecine

 And this is where I leave this discussion.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by scumbag

[Soundwise]

12 hours ago, rantan said:

 

I plan on ordering a set tomorrow. For $88 with a money-back-guarantee, I see no reason why I shouldn't test them in my own system.

 

Then, in my oblique and hobbity way, I might be able to offer an opinion, provided I am not hung up n a coat hook and turning purple

 

Happy to agree with @rantan on this one, this was not the case in our last encounter on power cords.

 

I believe Len Wallis started in 1978, do you really think he would sell a product that doesn't work and then offer a money back guarantee.

 

I have been using these 3D damping disks for 6 months and don't intend on taking them out.

 

FWIW, I don't think they work on carpet and components with plastic casing.

 

They work best with 2 pieces under each feet of my preamp, power amps and integrated when the equipment is placed on a hard surface eg bench or hifi rack shelf.

 

Also I don't think they work as well if you mix them with other spikes or vibration absorbers, they are designed to work on their own, but you could experiment after using them on their own first.

[rantan]

15 minutes ago, Soundwise said:

 

Happy to agree with @rantan on this one, this was not the case in our last encounter on power cords.

 

I believe Len Wallis started in 1978, do you really think he would sell a product that doesn't work and then offer a money back guarantee.

 

 

 

All good here mate.

During many years in audio I have found that you can just as often agree with someone on a topic even though you may have previously disagreed with them on another topic.

The balance is to listen to the opposing POV and weight it against one's own experience/s.

 

In this case and to answer the OP's question, I have not yet tried these dampers, but I fully intend to do so and will be placing an order very soon and at the risk of being labelled hung up, I will only make comments on their efficacy after evaluating them in my own system and room.

 

It is the only constant ( for evaluation ) that I have and while it won't satisfy everybody, it works for me and that's what matters

[TerryO]

Well I admit while it's no double blind test and thankfully so far no ones feet have needed to be injured by falling bricks in this sampling of the 3D damping pads, it is interesting to note that the three people, including myself,  who have used these pads have found that they do make a positive difference.

 

I actually bought another pack yesterday, this time they will be used under the small round locating spheres that sit under the spikes on my speakers. Am I expecting a difference in sound quality? nope but hopefully they will stop my polished hardwood floor from getting scratched while looking a lot tidier than mats.

 

I guess time will tell. ... 

 

cheers Terry

Edited April 10, 2017 by TerryO

[aussievintage]

6 minutes ago, TerryO said:

 

I actually bought another pack yesterday, this time they will be used under the small round locating spheres that sit under the spikes on my speakers. Am I expecting a difference in sound quality? nope but hopefully they will stop my polished hardwood floor from getting scratched while looking a lot tidier than mats.

 

 

What pressure can they withstand?  I ask because my speakers are very heavy, and if the absorbent layer gets crushed they aren't going to do much.

[TerryO]

7 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

What pressure can they withstand?  I ask because my speakers are very heavy, and if the absorbent layer gets crushed they aren't going to do much.

 

In all seriousness in this instance as long as they stop the floor from being scratched I'll be happy. 

 

cheers Terry

Edited April 10, 2017 by TerryO