A general power cable discussion

[Soundwise]

If Mr Nordost is reading this, I'd love to be part of any cable testing programs that they have. Where can I apply?

 

My system is sounding best it has ever been, partly due to some Nordost power cables but also due to various other tweaks that I've done. Don't really feel the need to upgrade anything at the moment because it sounds so good...Just enjoying the music...

 

If you are in Melb East @JSmith you can hear my system for yourself.

 

 

[ray4410]

 yes have been o n the bandwagon of interconnects +power +speaker cables for many years spent big dollars on them, I now listen to my own home made cables which cost a fraction of the cost of these overly priced commercial  cables and believe it or not I appreciate my system more

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, Soundwise said:

If you are in Melb East @JSmith you can hear my system for yourself.

 

Thank you for the invitation, however I am not in VIC. If I come down that way I may just take you up on this.

 

Did you miss the enquiry regarding any affiliation?

 

My main point of starting this thread is not to give a soapbox for brand dropping, but a genuine opportunity to finally nail this down with some proper correlating evidence.

 

Do you possibly have anything to add to my initial proposed testing process?

 

 

JSmith 

[Soundwise]

15 hours ago, JSmith said:

My main point of starting this thread is not to give a soapbox for brand dropping, but a genuine opportunity to finally nail this down with some proper correlating evidence.

 

Do you possibly have anything to add to my initial proposed testing process?

 

 

 

No have nothing to add, all my testing and measurements have been by my ears. The Audio Principe, KLEI and Nordost power cables that I've tried have all made significant audible changes to my system. When you have a highly resolving system and listen to 24/192 HD files it's dead easy to hear the changes.

[JSmith]

14 minutes ago, Soundwise said:

24/192 HD files

 

That a conundrum in itself... but maybe best left to the other thread about 24/192 files.

 

It's great to hear you have had positive experiences, but as mentioned I'm seeking reasons and evidence as to why this occurs sometimes.

 

JSmith 

[Nigel]

21 hours ago, JSmith said:

 

My main point of starting this thread is not to give a soapbox for brand dropping, but a genuine opportunity to finally nail this down with some proper correlating evidence.

 

 

  The first and last paragraphs of the 1st post on page 2 of this thread sums it in a nutshell.  Everything else is irrelevant. (including my useless posts)

[JSmith]

41 minutes ago, Nigel said:

 

  The first and last paragraphs of the 1st post on page 2 of this thread sums it in a nutshell.  Everything else is irrelevant. (including my useless posts)

 

You mean Zaph's post?

 

Sure, was some good info there... but it certainly doesn't "solve" the power cable issue once and for all.

 

JSmith 

[Nigel]

Oh sorry. What is the issue ?

 

[JSmith]

16 minutes ago, Nigel said:

What is the issue

 

Um, try reading the thread...

 

JSmith 

[JSmith]

This is an interesting read... quite balanced;

 

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/myths-and-snake-oil

 

JSmith 

[MLXXX]

On 3/1/2017 at 4:34 PM, agisthos said:

Of course in the cable world you have nuts who want to rub magic oil on the walls and think it sounds better. But everyone knows they are crazy.

Not everyone. Not by any means!

A sufficient test (some would argue the only meaningful test) would be to rub the oil on the walls and listen. If the sound is then improved for Listener A, then for Listener A the oil works. End of story.  Measurements are quite unnecessary. And blind testing of Listener A certainly unnecessary.

I note that this is the standard of proof that is usually provided in audiophile forum debates about after-market power cables. What matters is how the power cable sounds. [Not whether there is any measured, or measurable, effect on the sound entering the listener's ears.]
 

I'd like to see discussion on reasons and evidence as to how a power cable can affect a system sometimes and what that cable needs to be able to do to achieve this or whether it is also related to specific types of power supplies, shielding etc.

@JSmith I think your expectations in starting this thread were lofty. However for mainstream circumstances of using after-market power cords, the reasons and evidence you sought will remain elusive. The only evidence that will be forthcoming will be reports of people using their own ears.
 

This is an interesting read... quite balanced;

 

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/myths-and-snake-oil

 

JSmith 

Although much of what is stated seems pretty reasonable to me, I did find this bald claim rather odd:

 

Empirical testing has shown that standard shielded 14 gauge stranded power cord sounds less dynamic than unshielded 14 gauge stranded cord.

[andyr]

On 9/12/2017 at 3:43 PM, MLXXX said:

Although much of what is stated seems pretty reasonable to me, I did find this bald claim rather odd:

 

Empirical testing has shown that standard shielded 14 gauge stranded power cord sounds less dynamic than unshielded 14 gauge stranded cord.

 

It doesn't seem odd to me - the shielded power cable will have capacitance (that the unshielded cable doesn't have).  This capacitance affects the delivery of power down the cable (don't ask me how, though).

 

Andy

 

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

It doesn't seem odd to me - the shielded power cable will have capacitance (that the unshielded cable doesn't have).  This capacitance affects the delivery of power down the cable (don't ask me how, though).

 

Andy

 

Well I do have a bit of background in electrical engineering matters and it strikes me as likely to have an extremely small effect; a bit like applying an elastic band (the thin variety you can buy at a newsagents) to a small section of a garden hose and observing that the flow of water has been reduced. You'd need extremely sensitive equipment to detect a reduction in water flow and as for actually seeing an effect with your naked eye, you'd really be battling. Then there'd be the question of how water pressure from the water mains varied during the day.

 

I can't help thinking about the change in the no load voltage at a wall power point which where I live which can vary from roughly 235V to 248V depending on the time of day, and can drop a volt or so when the electric oven is turned on.  The changes in voltage are distinctly measurable differences. However using my ears I'm never conscious of any effect on the audio coming from my hi-fi system. I never operate the amplifier at such high volume levels that it is at risk of running out of electrical power.  

[Lance B]

On 2/25/2017 at 3:14 PM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

I suspect that I am one of the few people who has had the pleasure of speaking, at great length, with Ken Ishiwata. I used to speak with him back in the 1970s when I was service manager at Marantz. I renewed our acquaintance in the late 1980s over a meal. He technically savvy and the words above are likely not his own. Ken understands and appreciates what is important in audio. And that is measurements and technical specifications. 

Were you service manager at Marantz in the early 80's, say around 1983 at Chard Rd, Brookvale? I took my Marantz CD73 there a few times when new to fix drop outs and met a few of the repair staff. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

16 minutes ago, Lance B said:

Were you service manager at Marantz in the early 80's, say around 1983 at Chard Rd, Brookvale? I took my Marantz CD73 there a few times when new to fix drop outs and met a few of the repair staff. 

I left in 1980. You would have met Peter Lengel. He took over my job when I left for greener pastures.

[Lance B]

19 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I left in 1980. You would have met Peter Lengel. He took over my job when I left for greener pastures.

Aha. Thanks for your reply.

[Nigel]

On ‎12‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 3:43 PM, MLXXX said:

A sufficient test (some would argue the only meaningful test) would be to rub the oil on the walls and listen. If the sound is then improved for Listener A, then for Listener A the oil works. End of story.  Measurements are quite unnecessary. And blind testing of Listener A certainly unnecessary.

  Quite right MLXXX,  someone like ListenerA can't be helped. Probably doesn't want to learn anyway.

[Guest]

Function,look, fit and feel

 

Ppl make some nice power cables, plenty of choice 

[Cafad]

While reading through this thread I have come up with a question. 

If the shielding on a power cord is connected to the neutral conductor is it possible for that shielding to affect the ground plane of the component it is connected to?

I was starting to think yes (due to my research into those akiko tuning sticks and my, questionably deduced, conclusion that they are acting as ground plane antennas) but I'd like to hear the opinion of a more technically orientated person on the matter.

[Weka]

Not sure what you're getting at here, as the shield/screen is typically connected to earth at the mains plug end.

[Cafad]

28 minutes ago, Weka said:

Not sure what you're getting at here, as the shield/screen is typically connected to earth at the mains plug end.

I'm not 100% sure what I'm getting at either, that's why I've asked the question.  

[Guest Muon N']

On 13/09/2017 at 7:57 PM, MLXXX said:

Well I do have a bit of background in electrical engineering matters and it strikes me as likely to have an extremely small effect; a bit like applying an elastic band (the thin variety you can buy at a newsagents) to a small section of a garden hose and observing that the flow of water has been reduced. You'd need extremely sensitive equipment to detect a reduction in water flow and as for actually seeing an effect with your naked eye, you'd really be battling. Then there'd be the question of how water pressure from the water mains varied during the day.

 

I can't help thinking about the change in the no load voltage at a wall power point which where I live which can vary from roughly 235V to 248V depending on the time of day, and can drop a volt or so when the electric oven is turned on.  The changes in voltage are distinctly measurable differences. However using my ears I'm never conscious of any effect on the audio coming from my hi-fi system. I never operate the amplifier at such high volume levels that it is at risk of running out of electrical power.  

Sounds like you should have been a plumber instead

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:20 PM, Cafad said:

While reading through this thread I have come up with a question. 

If the shielding on a power cord is connected to the neutral conductor is it possible for that shielding to affect the ground plane of the component it is connected to?

I was starting to think yes (due to my research into those akiko tuning sticks and my, questionably deduced, conclusion that they are acting as ground plane antennas) but I'd like to hear the opinion of a more technically orientated person on the matter.

Your suggestion is potentially deadly. Particularly in Queensland (where wiring, training in electrical trades is much weaker than the rest of the nation). Don't even THINK about doing what you suggest. 

 

Further: A 'ground plane' may be a useful thing under certain circumstances, but it will be adopted by the engineer who designed the product. There is nothing the owner can do about it by altering external wiring. 

 

For the record: Ground plane techniques are generally used when product posses frequency response figures well into the radio frequency region. Way back, in the distant past, I built two, otherwise identical amplifiers, based on designs published by Matti Otala. Since they possessed a wide bandwidth, a ground plane construction was suggested by Otala. I built one amp using the ground plane printed circuit board and one without. The one without the ground plane was unstable and delivered high levels of RF oscillation. That said, if the product is designed to eschew the use of ground plane techniques, then there is no point introducing such techniques. Additionally, by introducing ground plane techniques, you may cause unwanted problems. 

[Cafad]

Just for the record, I wasn't suggesting anything, I was asking a question. 

Thanks for the response Zaph, very interesting.

[niss_man]

An interesting Video from Paul McGowan of PsAudio about cables. He is lucky he wasn't trained in Qld.

Introduction below.

 

Are cables BS?

There must not be enough worms crawling around so I figure I’ll just go ahead and open a fresh can. Keeps it fun that way.

Why is it we’re convinced we can hear changes in polarity, or MQA vs. non MQA, or the difference between CD and vinyl—but find it hard to accept that cables matter?

We don’t question the Earth is circular (well, most of us anyway), stars are suns, and gravity sucks—despite the fact these are all based on someone else’s word. You don’t actually know those little points of light in the night sky are suns like our own. Do you?

Sometimes we have to take a leap of faith from people we trust in order to learn, but it’s often difficult when others make fun of our beliefs or willingness to be open minded. People like James Randi or other official-sounding experts (Randi’s expert credentials are that he was once a magician) at the ready to make a name for themselves by shouting down the observations of others.

And here’s what’s really weird. When an expert in the field takes the time and personal challenge to provide engineering evidence that what we hear in cables is real, he is often shouted down as a heretic. My friend Galen Gareis, Principal Product Engineer at one of the world’s biggest cable manufacturing companies, Belden Cables, writes reams of papers and publishes scads of graphs and evidence showing the science behind what audiophiles have been saying for years. He’s made it his mission to refute all the naysayers.

And no one wants to listen.

It takes guts and energy to change minds. Most of us prefer to stay in our comfort zones instead of stretching just a little bit to grow our intellects.

Copper Magazine’s editor, Bill Leebens and I, are committed to helping Galen shine a small light into the darkened wilderness. But it’s difficult. Galen’s a quintessential nerd engineer and most of his writings are lengthy and indecipherable by average humans. We’re working on simplifying and summarizing his finding in future Copper Magazine issues and articles.

If you’re interested in what I am referring to, I am including just a taste of what Galen’s writings are like here in this post. It’s long, it’s technical, but it just might wet your whistle.

“It is truly sad that audiophiles seem to be 100% lost on shielding. And I mean LOST. First big thing, audio signals both speaker and interconnect are LOW FREQUENCY mostly MAGNETIC property signals. Not ELECTRIC fields. Sure, ALL electromagnetic waves are “both” B and E fields but the vector magnitudes of the two fields differ, and substantially. And, this ALTERS how they interact/cancel.

Our best friend at audio is to know that B-field magnetic waves decay at a ratio of 1/x^3. So MOVE your cables apart, and especially cables with large CURRENTS (speaker cables) that will have magnetic properties extending well outside the cable. The interconnect have the SAME FREQUENCIES but far less CURRENT so the fields are far, far smaller…but they are STILL magnetic in nature!

What about all the FOILS and BRAIDS on interconnect cables? These are for ELECTRIC fields such as EMI and RFI well above 1 MHz. YES, ONE MEGAHERTZ. Audio cables better have near ZERO EMI/RFI to be shielded from EGRESS (inside the cable to outside) and ONLY need ingress (outside the cable in) for terrestrial EMI/RFI. Better yet, the input needs a low pass filter to ground above 1 MHz.

Digital cables CAN spew EMI / RFI so shields are needed. But were talking AUDIO for right now.

Speaker cable aren’t shielded because they are a “different” kind of signals. They are the same 20-20KHz magnetic field vectors as interconnect cable. The speaker cable signal is just far, far stronger GAUSS density relative to any terrestrial EMI/RFI NOISE.  Low impedance speaker cables swamp out the interconnects radiated magnetic fields and ignore EMI/RFI pathetic B-fields for the same reason. The magnetic in nature signal is too big to be bothered by them.

DISTANCE or low permeability metals (stuff a magnetic sticks to) is needed for B-fields. A faraday cage is an example where it routes magnetic fields AROUND what is INSIDE as the cage is a lower permeable path to magnetic flux lines than the air is.  We could stick cables into magnetic conduit, too. This will route the flux lines around what is inside the conduit. It has to be stuff magnets stick too, not what is called electricals conduit that is more a fire block or E-fields short to ground.

Going up and up in frequency, we now need to TRANSITION to a material that is a low permeability to ELECTRIC fields, or is CONDUCTIVE to “E”lectricity. This is braids and foils, typically. And yes, the metallic conduit we use, too.”

There will be more to come. If you aren’t yet dying of boredom here’s a video I put together on the subject – and it’s a lot less technical. You can watch it here.