Can an amp sound good with one pair of speakers, but horrible with better ones?

[ghost4man]

9 hours ago, Sirmorebeer said:

A DIY Holton amp perhaps? Can it do the job? Might still North of the budget, try speaking to the man himself, promise he won't bite. Nothing sinister, he's a Tasmanian. 

 

I'm very seriously looking at the Holton Amps right this minute.

Have found an amplifier chassis and sourced some excellent Toroidal Transformers from Poland - Toroidy with the view to couple a 2.5KVA

with a pair of 500 wpc into 4 ohms modules from Anthony. I figure the price in the end to be around 2.5k.

 

That would give a bit of a monster of an amp and these would be dual stereo monoblocks.

[POV]

As per the other thread I said need to be careful system matching with those speakers, and yes absolutely that Yamaha needs to go...but, you really need to have a look at room acoustics as well.  It's just hard reflective surfaces everywhere, which is pretty hostile.  

[Cafad]

I would think the Anthem would handle the speakers.  Back when I had one I lent it to Scott in Mackay who used it on his B&W 802Ds and he liked it a lot.  He held on to it for several weeks as I recall.

 

The Dussun should too but sonically I don't think that is the way to go, the Dussun would still have some of the hard edges that you are looking to remove.  The Anthem is very smooth.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Cafad

[James May]

@POV completely agree. Unfortunately, my setup's in my lounge room so I can enjoy it with my family and as such, makes it difficult. I'd happily cover the walls with treatment, but wife not so much. I have been looking at replacing a big canvas print opposite the speakers with an acoustic one to start but.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

22 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

@andyr

 

 

I actually stated to you that I was considering the ME 850 and you asserted that this would be overkill. It now appears that you might think that there was some truth

 

 

Why do you think an ME850 would be overkill? It would, in fact, be a perfect match for such an application. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

16 hours ago, andyr said:

 

 

 

I will be able to prove this to my satisfaction (ie. my amp has a problem driving 2 ohm ribbons) in a couple of weeks time, when I borrow an ME75 to drive my ribbons.  ME amps are supposed to have no problem at 2 ohms.

 

Just a nit: The ME75 WILL have no problems at 2 Ohms. There is no "supposed" about it. In fact, with additional cooling, they will run 1 Ohm loads.

 

16 hours ago, andyr said:

 

 

  However, I can't buy it - as I need monoblocs; hence the mention of the Pass First Watt F5T.

 

 

Oh, that's no problem. Just buy two ME75 amps. 

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

@Sir Sanders Zingmore

 

Once you own a pair of maggies you have to become an expert in what amps work and what dont so this is just basic stuff

 

 

I know what amps work with maggies

 In fact I own two of them which I use for my (non maggie) panels

[Addicted to music]

@ghost4man

 

take it from someone that has driven 1.8ohm ribbons for almost 25yrs with a diy Hitachi output devices that are only rated @8amps each Max!.  The amp being 240w into 8ohms......

 

There's only one solution to this application.  It's kind a like applying petrol head mentality with the equation where it's all about the more cubic inches thst makes a car go!   

 

Apart from design and implementation the more output devices you hang of that PSU, the more stable and successful you're gonna drive that difficult load of under 2.0ohms.   

 

The ME850 and 1500 is perfect for that roll,  I refer them as the perfect spot welder!  Idea for any load you can throw at it, and it uses tough very linear BTJ.   As you well know that as the temp rises on BJT they improve in performance; lower output impedance and become even more linear, but be careful not to exceed over the opersting temp as the hotter they get the closer you are to destroying them.   Thst said I like BJT and I have switched!   

 

The Holton solution is even better but he now uses Exicon devices that are lateral mosfets and have exactly the opposite to BJT where as the temperature rises the output resistance increases so it backs away making them almost indestructible!  Similar to the original Hitachi that I've been using!

 

I have never ever heard a ME although I had one in the house but that journey was to help a mod @Orpheus  get his recently acquisition of a ME75.  I had to get it to the courier asap on a weekend so he can get it right away! 

 

Ive been longing to audition a Holton product and I got that chance during last years show.   In saying that I prefer the sound of BJT.  

Edited February 19, 2017 by Addicted to music

[Addicted to music]

23 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

I know what amps work with maggies

 In fact I own two of them which I use for my (non maggie) panels

 

They would have commanded those Avantgarde;  do what I say and not what you are in  incompetent in!    

[ghost4man]

12 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

@ghost4man

 

take it from someone that has driven 1.8ohm ribbons for almost 25yrs with a diy Hitachi output devices that are only rated @8amps each Max!.  The amp being 240w into 8ohms......

 

There's only one solution to this application.  It's kind a like applying petrol head mentality with the equation where it's all about the more cubic inches thst makes a car go!   

 

Apart from design and implementation the more output devices you hang of that PSU, the more stable and successful you're gonna drive that difficult load of under 2.0ohms.   

 

The ME850 and 1500 is perfect for that roll,  I refer them as the perfect spot welder!  Idea for any load you can throw at it, and it uses tough very linear BTJ.   As you well know that as the temp rises on BJT they improve in performance; lower output impedance and become even more linear, but be careful not to exceed over the opersting temp as the hotter they get the closer you are to destroying them.   Thst said I like BJT and I have switched!   

 

The Holton solution is even better but he now uses Lexicon devices that are lateral mosfets and have exactly the opposite to BJT where as the temperature rises the output resistance increases so it backs away making them almost indestructible!  Similar to the original Hitachi that I've been using!

 

I have never ever heard a ME although I had one in the house but that journey was to help a mod @Orpheus  get his recently acquisition of a ME75.  I had to get it to the courier asap on a weekend so he can get it right away! 

 

Ive been longing to audition a Holton product and I got that chance during last years show.   In saying that I prefer the sound of BJT.  

 

You are preaching to the converted.

Dont forget I have been in Bills shop and I have heard the maggies coupled to some pretty incredible amplifiers - PS Audio etc.

 

I feel very very confident going down the path that I wish to take with @Aussieamps in doing this. Anthony is a very accommodating person in every regard with

loads of advice to give.

At the moment I am sourcing a transformer from Poland - Toroidy - with 2.5KVA behind it. If you speak to Anthony one of the first things he said to me was that for  

many amps the limiting factor was the toroidal they put in. Have a look at the monster they put in the ME850. It plays a big part in what it can do.

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 hours ago, ghost4man said:

Please

 

I own a pair of MMGs, MGMC1s, IIIAs (renovated with steel and timber frames) and the legendary Tympani 1Ds (same renovation as well as going active).

2 pairs please. They wouldnt let you in the maggie temple with that

 

I think you misunderstood me. 

I have no Maggies, zero, none. 

I have two amps that are perfect for driving Maggies 

[rocky500]

10 minutes ago, andyr said:

Comments below - in red, Ozzie.

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

Are you sure about those voltages?

A lot of amps can clip when they are 100W.

Others Amps that have Class A for so many watts then switch over to A/B move out of Class A at not very loud volumes.

Just finding your voltages unusual for these type of speakers.

[andyr]

4 hours ago, rocky500 said:

Are you sure about those voltages?

A lot of amps can clip when they are 100W.

Others Amps that have Class A for so many watts then switch over to A/B move out of Class A at not very loud volumes.

Just finding your voltages unusual for these type of speakers.

 

What voltages are you querying, rocky?

 

I'm not in a clipping situation?

 

And when you say "Just finding your voltages unusual for these type of speakers." ... that's because the normal power figures / dB efficiency figures you see in the press are for a complete speaker - bass panel, mid panel & ribbon.  All I was doing (as I have a fully active system) was driving each individual driver separately.

 

Andy

 

[rocky500]

18 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

What voltages are you querying, rocky?

 

I'm not in a clipping situation?

 

And when you say "Just finding your voltages unusual for these type of speakers." ... that's because the normal power figures / dB efficiency figures you see in the press are for a complete speaker - bass panel, mid panel & ribbon.  All I was doing (as I have a fully active system) was driving each individual driver separately.

 

Andy

 

I am just use to my easy to drive 8 Ohm Lenehan speakers.

I doubt I could get away with a very low powered amp.

Is it the passive crossovers that chew all the power?

[Addicted to music]

On 17/02/2017 at 11:14 AM, Sirmorebeer said:

+1

From review site:

 

http://hometheaterreview.com/martinlogan-motion-60xt-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/?page=2

 

Quote:

 

"Sensitivity of this speaker, measured quasi-anechoically from 300 Hz to 3 kHz, is comfortably high at 90.6 dB. You should get about +3 dB more output in-room, so the 94dB rating seems reasonable. Nominal impedance is four ohms, and the speaker drops to a low of 2.1 ohms; so, even though this speaker will play loud from just a few watts of power, you need an amp with plenty of current to drive it. Use a separate amp, a high-quality integrated amp, or a top-of-the-line A/V receiver."

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

check the content of the first post and the question being asked.

I see no maggies 

 

6 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

What discussion?

I don't see a discussion, I see you and  Andy bickering like children across a number of threads. 

 

You've used the title of this thread as an excuse to continue your tiff here and fill this thread with stuff that's not helping the OP at all. 

 

Edit. Not only have you not helped the OP, Andyr had to Google his speakers to find out what they were and you ghosty, poured scorn on them. 

 

 

Both speakers have ribbon drivers, both speakers dip down to around the 2.0 ohm at the high frequency.  maggies or no maggies, both maggies and the OPs  ML have ribbon drivers.  So as far as I'm concern bickering or no bickering the OP has learnt from all these post that concludes driving low impedance drivers requires enormous power, we are not talking about pissy classD 1000W you need serious Class A/B to make them sound decent.....

the only way to get this is to have decent output devices thst can handle some serious current and are rated at least 200W plus, you also need not just one or two pairs but several.  Look at the ME 850, it has 16 x 20amp,  8 pairs of output devices per channel.  The Sanders Magtech has 20 x15amp, 10 pairs per channel!  See the relationship in what's required.   Both i these applications are outside of the OPs budget and good luck in finding anything even here in the classified at $1.5K.  

Off topic; agree with @ghost4man that running and building a Pass Lab F5 V2.0 turbo to drive ribbons is just jumping from one frying pan into the next.  To justified your decision that it's document to drive as low as 0.1 ohm stable is really a wrong way to look at it technically.  Note that this 0.1ohm is driven at 1.0V and is the MAX out peak rating of that application.    Also because it's a 2.0 ohm load, your voltage across that driver will never be the same as for a 4 or an 8 ohm load, with the freq sweep, it will be much lower because you are drawing heaps more current across  a 2.0 ohm driver out of a devices that's only rated XX watts!    Thst comes down to ohms law and the number of devices you hang of that PSU! 

[James May]

I gave up on the thread, when it became an argument, between people who didn't even know the speakers weren't electrostatics.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by JamesMay

[ufo]

23 hours ago, rantan said:

 

No need. it only became partly complicated when the discussion inevitably veered into Maggie territory. Just like many speaker threads

 

There should be a Godwin's law for ME and Maggies

How could one not agree

[wolster]

On 2/22/2017 at 6:10 AM, JamesMay said:

I gave up on the thread, when it became an argument, between people who didn't even know the speakers weren't electrostatics.

 

 

 

That's unfortunate, @JamesMay

I'll clean up the thread in the hope that you can get some meaningful information.

Unfortunately, there are some regular suspects that can't seem to help themselves.

[Juicester]

Quote

The manufacturer specifies that the 60XTs are “compatible with 4-, 6-, or 8-ohm rated amplifiers.” To test that claim, I replaced the Silver Seven 700 in my system with an available Kenwood KM-209 stereo power amplifier (150Wpc into 8 ohms)—a mass-market model from a few years back—using the previously described bi-wire connections. It became readily apparent that the necessary drive current for the 60XT’s 4-ohm load was not available from this amplifier, which sounded weak and flat no matter the source material. Given the speaker’s efficiency, a suitable amplifier need not be exceptionally powerful, but must be able to provide adequate drive current into lower-impedance loads, and have a slew rate fast enough to satisfy the transient-response characteristics of its AMT tweeter. If one has any concerns about an amplifier’s ability to satisfy such demands with this or any other loudspeaker, it is a good idea to arrange a demo using the amplifier in question prior to purchase.

 

@JamesMay

from another review site. And the kenwood he tested it with is more powerful than your Yamaha. Unfortunately it seems you have been too trigger happy on the purchase button!   Good luck with sorting it. 

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

On 19/02/2017 at 11:01 AM, JamesMay said:

@POV completely agree. Unfortunately, my setup's in my lounge room so I can enjoy it with my family and as such, makes it difficult. I'd happily cover the walls with treatment, but wife not so much. I have been looking at replacing a big canvas print opposite the speakers with an acoustic one to start but.

Definitely, don't cover the wife.

 

DIY room treatment - something at the first reflection point (can be curtains or proper acoustic treatment), big thick rug on the floor - if you have books, a tall and fairly wide bookshelf behind the listening position filled with books -  but not identical sized books together. That's worked for me a few times now. I've found it's best to have nothing between rear ports and the rear wall, you may not be able to do that.

 

As far as the amp goes, you know you like the Onkyo with these speakers. It's more expensive? -  so wait and save up a bit more. I know that's a bit annoying, but if something definitely works for you then get it now, rather than after a couple more amps that you don't like first...

[James May]

Cheers guys, appreciate the input. Acoustic treatment defiantly coming up too, just have to get around the asthetic issues. 

 

@Juicester already had the Yamaha, bought cheap, so I'm not phased. Thinking of using it in my music room to run my piano through, coupled with my triangle speakers. They sound really good together and would have to sound better than running the piano through the pa with everything else. And then I can stream music in that room too, which is a double bonus.

 

I got an Anthem Intergrated 225 second hand from a member here who saw the thread. After a bit more research, found has been used by a few ML owners, who all seem to rave about it. It was reasonably good value, so if that still doesn't hit the spot, I can sell that and if I lose a bit, won't send me broke. 

 

I was going to go the Onkyo, but Eastwood had sold out and they said the Anthem sounds a lot better with my speakers and they're always pretty honest with me. Unfortunately business commitments and a young baby make it basically impossible to go and test anything these days, but I'm confident it'll sound great too. Also has plenty of amazing reviews saying it has the grunt to drive any speaker. Obviously, within reason.

 

Just waiting for the amp to come next week, so I'm running Triangle/Yamaha for now and I'm definitely not complaining.

Edited February 23, 2017 by JamesMay

[James May]

And my previous post sounded more serious than intended.

 

I've been on enough forums to know sometimes people get off topic and a little animated.

 

It was an off the cuff comment and no personal offence was taken, nor intended.

[warweary]

Gday JamesMay, sounds like you've got a bit of work to do with the martin logan's, it's a fun experimental curve.

 

A few things - how does your ear listening height compare to the ribbons, I've heard these are highly directional.

The sub in the corner behind that port doesn't seem an ideal position, sound wise, perhaps try up next to the right speaker.

The small table in the centre won't be helping the sound.

 

Hope the anthem works out.

[James May]

So, prompted update time;

 

New amp (Anthem Integrated 225) arrived thanks to @bigjab. I can't leave feedback as it wasn't listed for sale, but good guy to deal with. Bloody heavy thing too, at 19.6kg. Doesn't sound much, but feels like it's full of lead.

 

Also picked up a Peachtree Audio DAC-iTx and connected the server straight to this via USB.

 

Difference is night & day, everything I loved about these speakers (from hearing in other places) came straight back again. Obviously the ML's really did need a bunch of grunt to do them justice. 

 

Also installed Jriver on the server and Jremote on my phone/iPad. What a difference compared to the Yamaha Network Receiver & Windows Media Player. No lag, no files that won't play, everything works, no cutting out randomly. Even little things like all of the cover art showing clearly. It's so far beyond using the Yamaha system it's a joke and I haven't even started playing with any of the room correction or upsampling features yet. 

 

@warweary thanks for the advice. Took a lot of mucking around with sub placement to get the right spot, I had it exactly where you recommended, but left the listening position all but devoid of bass. I have however, moved the speakers well forward from that last pic and I seem to be closer to the sweet spot. Dispersion on these is listed at 80°(w) x 30°(h) which is a pretty large area by the time you get back to the listening position. Table is definitely not ideal, but I do need somewhere for the wine and cheese. Wife is very good about letting me do what I want, so I make sure I try and keep things as aesthetically pleasing to her eyes as I can. It works both ways, so her coffee table stays and I get to do my thing. I have a throw rug on the lounge that goes over coffee table if I want to do any critical listening.

 

I'm actually doing some room work next. Putting some treatment behind the listening position next (there is a big flat wall and void behind the chair) and also some behind the two speakers also. Then will think about adding curtains to replace the roller blinds. Other than that, pretty happy with everything as it is now.

Edited March 31, 2017 by JamesMay

[Guest thathifiguy]

2 hours ago, JamesMay said:

 It's so far beyond using the Yamaha system it's a joke

 

Awesome result!