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Classe ca2300 or Accuphase e470


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 I am setting up a system for my dad as a retirement joy. We may use some 804d3s. It's a bit too hard to find a dealer stock the accuphase or classe In Sydney? Anyone can comment on them or any other amps you think are better?

I have a chord dac can be used as preamp if we go with the ca 2300.

Edited by fdhfdy
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23 hours ago, fdhfdy said:

 I am setting up a system for my dad as a retirement joy. We may use some 804d3s. It's a bit too hard to find a dealer stock the accuphase or classe In Sydney? Anyone can comment on them or any other amps you think are better?

I have a chord dac can be used as preamp if we go with the ca 2300.

 

This (attached) is an impedance/negative phase angle graph of the B&W804d3's as you can see it's impedance between 80hz and 800hz is very low 3ohms, but at 70hz it's also met with a very nasty -55 degree negative phase angle. What this does is make that 3ohm load look more like 1ohm EPDR (equivalent peak dissipation resistance ) to the amplifier.

This means you need an amp that can deliver current and lots of it without any strain to get the best bass from these.

Out of the two amps you mentioned only one has bipolar (bjt) output devices that can deliver current and that's the Classe. The Accuphase while a very nice amp has mosfet output devices, and will not do the current you need for this load to get the best from these speaker in the bass. 

There are other great amps that do the current you need but you specifically asked about these two.

 

PS: the graph is of the 802d3 the 804d3 is almost the same for the bass, a little easier around 600hz-1khz

 

BTW: I think Joe Reidiger does Classe, at Audio Connection, if he's not there ask for Jenson.

 

Cheers George

 

B&W 804d 3.jpg

Edited by georgehifi
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1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

 

This (attached) is an impedance/negative phase angle graph of the B&W804d3's as you can see it's impedance between 80hz and 800hz is very low 3ohms, but at 70hz it's also met with a very nasty -55 degree negative phase angle. What this does is make that 3ohm load look more like 1ohm EPDR (equivalent peak dissipation resistance ) to the amplifier.

This means you need an amp that can deliver current and lots of it without any strain to get the best bass from these.

Out of the two amps you mentioned only one has bipolar (bjt) output devices that can deliver current and that's the Classe. The Accuphase while a very nice amp has mosfet output devices, and will not do the current you need for this load to get the best from these speaker in the bass. 

There are other great amps that do the current you need but you specifically asked about these two.

 

PS: the graph is of the 802d3 the 804d3 is almost the same for the bass, a little easier around 600hz-1khz

 

BTW: I think Joe Reidiger does Classe, at Audio Connection, if he's not there ask for Jenson.

 

Cheers George

 

B&W 804d 3.jpg

Thanks for the information truly appreciated.  Will go visit the shop on parramatta road one day.Are there any other amp like mcintosh can do the bass? Could you also comment the chord cpm 2650 int and spa 1200 mk2 as they are easier for me to try at sydney hifi.

Edited by fdhfdy
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Mac's are transformer coupled, also not the best for this kind of load.

Amps like the Krells, Classe, ME (Aussie), earlier Mark Levinson, Spectral.

Ones with bi-polar (BJT) output devices, pass on tubes or mosfets.

 

Cheers George

Edited by georgehifi
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Tried krEllis 

2 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

Mac's are transformer coupled, also not the best for this kind of load.

Amps like the Krells, Classe, ME (Aussie), earlier Mark Levinson, Spectral.

Ones with bi-polar (BJT) output devices, pass on tubes or mosfets.

 

Cheers George

Thanks again sir,

I heard 800d3 powered by the new krell mono blocks in lancove hifi store I may need to revisit the store I think.

Btw, Could you also comment on the chord cpm 2650 int and spa 1200 mk2? as they are easier for me to try at sydney hifi.

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@fdhfdy How did you arrive at this pairing?  One is an integrated and the other a pure power amp.

 

Surely the logical competitor to the ca2300 would be the Accuphase P-4200 or A-47.

 

FWIW I have heard the classe on B&W (not same model) before and it was OK but didn't float my boat.  Also the build quality on the Classe leaves me cold.  Even more so for the current Krell range - which is sad given I still own and love old FPB era Krell.  Accuphase on the other hand is where I now put my own cash - so yes I am biased.  Great sound, beautiful build, and good resale value on an Oz delivered unit.  You should still check out the Accuphase as it's far from gutless and may be completly sufficient for your needs.  Or check out the Accuphase power amps if you like the house sound but you really think you need more grunt. 

 

Otherwise I also have a Pass Labs X250.5 which I love.  It drives a very hungry pair of Dynaudio C4's very well.  So I would look at Pass as well.

 

happy hunting.

 

 

Edited by Steam
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1 hour ago, Steam said:

@fdhfdy How did you arrive at this pairing?  One is an integrated and the other a pure power amp.

 

Surely the logical competitor to the ca2300 would be the Accuphase P-4200 or A-47.

 

FWIW I have heard the classe on B&W (not same model) before and it was OK but didn't float my boat.  Also the build quality on the Classe leaves me cold.  Even more so for the current Krell range - which is sad given I still own and love old FPB era Krell.  Accuphase on the other hand is where I now put my own cash - so yes I am biased.  Great sound, beautiful build, and good resale value on an Oz delivered unit.  You should still check out the Accuphase as it's far from gutless and may be completly sufficient for your needs.  Or check out the Accuphase power amps if you like the house sound but you really think you need more grunt. 

 

Otherwise I also have a Pass Labs X250.5 which I love.  It drives a very hungry pair of Dynaudio C4's very well.  So I would look at Pass as well.

 

happy hunting.

 

 

True. I am interested in accuphase amps atm. Really want to find out more about e470 and e600 whereas It is almost impossible as no one stocks these amps in Sydney. 

Passlabs can do any good with b&w speakers as well?what kind of sound it has, I am little bit warm side and definitely want the soul.

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Passlabs can do any good with b&w speakers as well?what kind of sound it has, I am little bit warm side and definitely want the soul.

 

He also used Mosets in some amps, and the warmth "may" have come from this, from a slight lack of bass control giving a bit of "bloom" with speakers like the OP has.

 

Cheers George

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21 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

 

He also used Mosets in some amps, and the warmth "may" have come from this, from a slight lack of bass control giving a bit of "bloom" with speakers like the OP has.

 

Cheers George

 

Don't forget, George, that Pass uses MOSFETs at VERY high bias currents. This negates the problems MOSFETs exhibit with respect to negative tempco of gm. IOW: Pass amps don't tend to suffer the lack of dynamic contrasts associated with MOSFETs. Pass amps tend to be able to deal with low impedances as well as good BJT amps. 

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1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Don't forget, George, that Pass uses MOSFETs at VERY high bias currents. This negates the problems MOSFETs exhibit with respect to negative tempco of gm. IOW: Pass amps don't tend to suffer the lack of dynamic contrasts associated with MOSFETs. Pass amps tend to be able to deal with low impedances as well as good BJT amps. 

 

Look back Trevor, the impedance of these speaker when combined with a 55degree negative phase angle in the low bass will be down around 1ohm, now which one will deliver the current at that impedance with no droop in power output a BJT or Mosfet?

 

Cheers George.

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Just now, georgehifi said:

 

Look back Trevor, the impedance of these speaker when combined with a 55degree negative phase angle in the low bass will be down around 1ohm, now which one will deliver the current at that impedance with no droop in power output a BJT or Mosfet?

 

Cheers George.

 

No doubt about it, a potent BJT amp is the way to go, BUT, if you want MOSFETs, Pass are a very good choice. We all know the best BJT amp choice for 1 Ohm loads. 

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5 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

 BUT, if you want MOSFETs, Pass are a very good choice. We all know the best BJT amp choice for 1 Ohm loads. 

 

You don't have an argument with me there, I preach Nelson's stuff, but in this case a BJT amp is the way to go for the best bass performance. Sure one of Nelson's mosfets will sound very good still, but the bass will be better with an equal quality BJT amp. And this is why I recommended the Classe over the Accuphase for the OP's two amp choices.

 

Cheers George 

Edited by georgehifi
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22 hours ago, fdhfdy said:

True. I am interested in accuphase amps atm. Really want to find out more about e470 and e600 whereas It is almost impossible as no one stocks these amps in Sydney. 

Passlabs can do any good with b&w speakers as well?what kind of sound it has, I am little bit warm side and definitely want the soul.

 

Absolute hi fi in sydney advertise that they have both Accuphase AND B&W.  They may not have your exact combination but go and try what they do have and see what you think.  If you are still interested after that then they should be able to organise the exact combo or similar.

 

At at the price levels you are looking at you really need to trust your own ears.  If you take the time to look around you will know when you have found the amps for you.  I would call pass and Accuphase warmish/smooth but others would say it sux.

 

 

 

 

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Guest yamaha_man
On 08/02/2017 at 9:14 PM, Nap250 said:

@Yamaha Man was selling some massive Krell Monos second hand some time ago. Not sure if they are for sale?

Still available.

Krell KAS monoblocks.

IMG_1052.JPG

IMG_1064.JPG

IMG_1426.JPG

IMG_1429.JPG

Edited by yamaha_man
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I recommend just these amps, they would drive the 90db B&W-804d3 effortlessly and sound magnificent, so long as he (your dad) doesn't want to play at big party levels, they are legendary, the sound would be better than anything else discussed here so far.

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/118769-fs-mark-levinson-ml-2s-and-ml-6s/

 

Cheers George 

Edited by georgehifi
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