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iMac pro release 28/10/16


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7 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

 

Which Dell XPS13? The 9350 has different drive options so would hardly be non-removable.

You can still open up the Surface Pro 4 (carefully) and remove the SSD, if you need to get data off a dead one.

 

 

 

Never tried that on the Surface Pro,  I was told by the rep from Micrsoft that they don't repair them, it's a complete change over to a brand new one under warranty.  So if that's the case you need to wipe it clean if possible or asked for the SSD.  

But by rights even Apple will have to comply that it's your right to that HDD.   Where I work, if a HDD was to fail and they do fail we replace it and then hand over the Faulty HDD to the client, what they do with it is there business, we don't keep HDD, so the privacy issue falls back on them.  This is now standard policy to deal with privacy throughout the industry.

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Guest Eggcup The Daft
4 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

 

Never tried that on the Surface Pro,  I was told by the rep from Micrsoft that they don't repair them, it's a complete change over to a brand new one under warranty.  So if that's the case you need to wipe it clean if possible or asked for the SSD.  

But by rights even Apple will have to comply that it's your right to that HDD.   Where I work, if a HDD was to fail and they do fail we replace it and then hand over the Faulty HDD to the client, what they do with it is there business, we don't keep HDD, so the privacy issue falls back on them.  This is now standard policy to deal with privacy throughout the industry.

So how will they do that with the new models... there is no separate SSD, the chips are soldered to the motherboard.

 

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22 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

No different to the the surface Pro....

 

Just like me, you're wrong here.

 

Surface Pro has a socketed SSD.    The new macbooks have the SSD as part of the motherboard.... and if the motherboard was damaged, then the data is lost.

 

21 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Which Dell XPS13?

 

I was going to say the 2016 (kabylake) .... but well, I'm wrong about that too.    Sorry.

Edited by davewantsmoore
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1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Just like me, you're wrong here.

 

Surface Pro has a socketed SSD.    The new macbooks have the SSD as part of the motherboard.... and if the motherboard was damaged, then the data is lost.

 

 

I was going to say the 2016 (kabylake) .... but well, I'm wrong about that too.    Sorry.

 

Dave,

 

i think  you should stop quoting 1/2 a post.

 

i did post that the Microsoft rep said that they do not repair any Surface Pros.  If you have one under warranty that went faulty, they will not replace it if you ripped that SSD out.   It must be replaced as a unit that hasn't been physically tampered with. That goes with nearly all warranty claims, for any product.  No manufacturer will replace a product if it's internal have been tampered with.  With the Microsoft Pros it's a direct swapt, you walk into the place of purchase and demonstrate the fault and they hand over a brand new Surface Pro!  How is that for support!

Now unless you guys keep incriminating or very personal data   on your HDD then you shouldn't have an issue!   :ohmy:

 

I dont keep any, I refuse to keep any personal data on any PC, tablet or phone.  I don't use apps for banking, nor do I use DNA recognition software that requires unique DNA features such as finger prints or retina scans,. Why...you can't change these if security is breached, but you can chance a password or a passcode...:)

and as for Apple products I'm not all that fuss about whether a SSD is removable or not!  I don't give a rats ......!

I've loaded a "find my iPhone app"   I've never tried it but this app lets you erase any Apple device if it's lost...remotely and as soon it is connected to the Internet....

Great app, i can track all my Apple device anywhere on the globe provided it's connected to the WWW.

2ndly all my Apple products such as the MacBook Pro,  Apple service do not access the device for personal info.  The last time I was there for the MacBook Pro with a screen issue, they connected it via a service link that just runs diagnostics to test all components.  They don't even asked for a password for access.

 

 

 

Edited by Addicted to music
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Guest Eggcup The Daft
11 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

 

Dave,

 

i think  you should stop quoting 1/2 a post.

 

i did post that the Microsoft rep said that they do not repair any Surface Pros.  If you have one under warranty that went faulty, they will not replace it if you ripped that SSD out.   It must be replaced as a unit that hasn't been physically tampered with. That goes with nearly all warranty claims, for any product.  No manufacturer will replace a product if it's internal have been tampered with.  With the Microsoft Pros it's a direct swapt, you walk into the place of purchase and demonstrate the fault and they hand over a brand new Surface Pro!  How is that for support!

Now unless you guys keep incriminating or very personal data   on your HDD then you shouldn't have an issue!   :ohmy:

 

I dont keep any, I refuse to keep any personal data on any PC, tablet or phone.  I don't use apps for banking, nor do I use DNA recognition software that requires unique DNA features such as finger prints or retina scans,. Why...you can't change these if security is breached, but you can chance a password or a passcode...:)

and as for Apple products I'm not all that fuss about whether a SSD is removable or not!  I don't give a rats ......!

I've loaded a "find my iPhone app"   I've never tried it but this app lets you erase any Apple device if it's lost...remotely and as soon it is connected to the Internet....

Great app, i can track all my Apple device anywhere on the globe provided it's connected to the WWW.

2ndly all my Apple products such as the MacBook Pro,  Apple service do not access the device for personal info.  The last time I was there for the MacBook Pro with a screen issue, they connected it via a service link that just runs diagnostics to test all components.  They don't even asked for a password for access.

 

 

 

I'm glad that you are in a position to do such things.

It's not always like that, though. For example, some software is licensed per machine and can have a value many times that of the computer. It was, for example, well worth removing the SSD from a 2012 MacBook Pro to recover a Windows virtual machine containing such software - the loss of warranty on the machine (which didn't happen in this case anyway) was much less than the cost of losing that software, and also less than the cost in time contacting an overseas company, confirming the purchase, getting the software license reset at their license server, etc.

 

If the VM is permanently running (the same for database file formats - including those of some email applications) then the backup may be unusable as well.

 

Similarly, data that may not have been backed up (from the last run of a piece of software) can also be worth much more than the computer. Automatic backup software can fail - Time Machine can fail without the user realising - leaving a couple of weeks' work only in local storage on a failed computer.

 

Organisations, rather than individuals, are often allowed to do things like remove parts for testing or repair without breaking the warranty. Also, PC companies will still often allow you to remove and replace upgradable components without breaking the warranty. Dell have published online user guides for pretty much every computer they've manufactured that tell you how to strip down and rebuild the machine and replace parts.

 

A computer that doesn't allow data storage recovery in the case of a serious error or breakdown is a step too far, as far as I'm concerned. If Apple have included a socket that allows access to the SSD in such circumstances, it's much less of a problem.

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

At the JB in Docklands and the Microsoft rep was there.

The surface Pro has a 2 yr warranty and a additional 2 yrs can be purchased...

One thing for sure is that the Surface Pro is a sealed unit...and to reconfirmed that the SSD is not accessible.  Any tampering physically in an attempt to access that HDD and warrantee won't be honoured....very fair I think considering the unit is not accessible for repairs.   So for those who think that the HDD was accessible think again, it's like I said previously a direct swap in the 1st 3mths...after that the unit is sent back to MS and they will either send you another unit.  There is no repair centre for it here in Aust.   

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15 minutes ago, :) al said:

And after warranty what do you do ? They keep swapping your machine when fails ? At what cost ?

 

Unfortunately I didn't asked that question....I'd hate to think....

 

At least Apple will and still repair out of warranty....but when you go 4yrs+  I'd say it's time to upgrade...software and apps are consistently requiring additional resources.....even today i think 512 SSD is not enough

 

Edited by Addicted to music
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9 minutes ago, :) al said:

Sounds like something for a throwaway society !

 

Thats where it's all headed.....

ive just watched 10 colleagues made redundant.....

Theres plans to get clients to fix issues to reduce the workforce even further as the paperless society takes hold....many thanks to iPads and other tablets...:unsure:

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34 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

@:) al

 

JB has a 10% off all Apple computers including the latest MacBooks, ends tomorrow!

 

Unfortunately it is that fortunately our 2007 and 2011 MacBooks are both still going fine :) so no needs for any replacement !

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Guest Eggcup The Daft
1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

At the JB in Docklands and the Microsoft rep was there.

The surface Pro has a 2 yr warranty and a additional 2 yrs can be purchased...

One thing for sure is that the Surface Pro is a sealed unit...and to reconfirmed that the SSD is not accessible.  Any tampering physically in an attempt to access that HDD and warrantee won't be honoured....very fair I think considering the unit is not accessible for repairs.   So for those who think that the HDD was accessible think again, it's like I said previously a direct swap in the 1st 3mths...after that the unit is sent back to MS and they will either send you another unit.  There is no repair centre for it here in Aust.   

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+4+Teardown/51568

 

See step 8. The SSD is accessible. I never said that they would honour warranty afterwards. What I am concerned about is that if the data on the SSD is more valuable than the cost of the computer to you, the SSD can be removed and data recovered.

That option is not available on the TouchBar MacBook Pro. There is a socket on the system board and some speculation that this would be for data recovery, but not confirmed yet.

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3 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+4+Teardown/51568

 

See step 8. The SSD is accessible. I never said that they would honour warranty afterwards. What I am concerned about is that if the data on the SSD is more valuable than the cost of the computer to you, the SSD can be removed and data recovered.

That option is not available on the TouchBar MacBook Pro. There is a socket on the system board and some speculation that this would be for data recovery, but not confirmed yet.

 

That's the whole purpose of my arguement with this removable HDD is that it's the same as Apple.  Warranty won't be honoured!  

Say you have an issue with the screen; valid and typical fault, say that the screen is dead!  Under warranty you won't be able remove that HDD physically unless you are a major client that's written that into the sales contract such as DOD.   But the typical Joe like myself will have no hope if you want the warranty to be honoured.

 

http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/D/6/FD606D69-21BA-4C30-97DA-8CCE155C1A6A/Surface_Warranty_Australia-NZ_English.pdf

 

 

 

 

image.png

Edited by Addicted to music
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3 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+4+Teardown/51568

 

See step 8. The SSD is accessible. I never said that they would honour warranty afterwards. What I am concerned about is that if the data on the SSD is more valuable than the cost of the computer to you, the SSD can be removed and data recovered.

That option is not available on the TouchBar MacBook Pro. There is a socket on the system board and some speculation that this would be for data recovery, but not confirmed yet.

 

As a note with macs, even if have dead as door knob machine, OS X allows to plug in and access and if need be extract all data without dissembling the machine or physically accessing the HDD. Not something I've ever had to employ or know if possible with new macs, but can't imagine why wouldn't be the case :) 

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29 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

 

That's the whole purpose of my arguement with this removable HDD is that it's the same as Apple.  Warranty won't be honoured!  

Say you have an issue with the screen; valid and typical fault, say that the screen is dead!  Under warranty you won't be able remove that HDD physically unless you are a major client that's written that into the sales contract such as DOD.   But the typical Joe like myself will have no hope if you want the warranty to be honoured.

 

http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/D/6/FD606D69-21BA-4C30-97DA-8CCE155C1A6A/Surface_Warranty_Australia-NZ_English.pdf

 

 

 

 

image.png

 

Apple has never given hoots who has been in the machine or what's been done in there. They just note for instance I run an Oem non apple ssd and ram in Our 2011 mac book pro. Never stopped warranty service let alone 4 years out of warranty to fully pay for replacement innards no questions asked in fact at their suggestion and prompting.

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14 minutes ago, :) al said:

 

Apple has never given hoots who has been in the machine or what's been done in there. They just note for instance I run an Oem non apple ssd and ram in Our 2011 mac book pro. Never stopped warranty service let alone 4 years out of warranty to fully pay for replacement innards no questions asked in fact at their suggestion and prompting.

 

You are very lucky to be treated that way with Apple.  

 

You can see that what I've posted on point B in the MS exclusions, that the warranty is excluded even if an updated OS is loaded, so to have the warranty honoured the original OS that was preloaded with the machine will be honoured and not the any updates. That's not the case with Apple, and there OS is free.  So you're stuck with Win10

 

Edited by Addicted to music
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Guest Eggcup The Daft
2 minutes ago, :) al said:

 

Apple has never given hoots who has been in the machine or what's been done in there. They just note for instance I run an Oem non apple ssd and ram in Our 2011 mac book pro. Never stopped warranty service let alone 4 years out of warranty to fully pay for replacement innards no questions asked in fact at their suggestion and prompting.

Apple's attitude is to make it difficult to do things they don't want you to. Ten years or so ago, you could upgrade a number of components in most Macs easily. For some years they've made it harder to get in: used special adaptors for components: and are now soldering just about every component onto the system board of the newest design. As far as Apple are concerned, you should be using USB-C devices for any expansion now.

 

4 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

 

You are very lucky to be treated that way with Apple.  

 

You can see that what I've posted on point B in the MS exclusions, that the warranty is excluded even if an updated OS is loaded, so to have the warranty honoured the original OS that was preloaded with the machine will be honoured and not the any updates. That's not the case with Apple, and there OS is free.

 

The correct way of reading that clause in the warranty (I've asked) is that you have to use the same version or later Windows on the Surface Pro: no Linux or Android, no earlier version of Windows as the host OS. Enterprise customers may run a virtual machine with a different version of Windows. You can install the Educational or Enterprise version of Windows 10 on a Surface Pro 4 and it doesn't break warranty.

 

As far as the removable SSD is concerned, you seem determined to misunderstand me. I get that the warranty is voided if you open the computer. But let me put this scenario to you again: you have a Surface Pro that is broken and will not start. On the hard drive is the only copy of some data worth half a million pounds to your company. Do you open the machine and recover the data from the SSD, or do you hand the computer to Microsoft for replacement and never see the data again? To me that's a no-brainer. Now do the same with the MacBook Pro with the Touch Bar. Unless they will hand over the data, safely and securely, they don't get the machine in either case.

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Well I think addicted s point is the ms surface pro is no different as can't open and do anything with it anyways. Even ms can't they flip the machine by the sounds.

 

is there anything to suggest the data on the MacBook Pro is not accessible if the machine is dead as a doorknob as has been indicated this has been user accessible for all macs I know and I am not aware this situation has changed any.

 

to suggest for ten years they were easy and been making it harder is incorrect in my opinion. I have a ten year old machine and one 5 years old and they are no different as far as accessibility and upgrade ability.

 

makers are very much making some things more difficult eg batteries and such...and not surprisingly so given potential of people. Upgrading diy with potential lethal results.

 

personally sorry I don't see your distinction in comparisons vs the mac book pro and ms surface pro.

 

frankly I don't know why we are even comparing with a surface pro. They are so distinctly different machines.

 

apple has their very own product to compete with a surface pro... and it ain't a mac book pro...perhaps someone should tell Microsoft with their stoopid ads they are repeating ad nauseum trying to compare their surface pro with a mac book pro !

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8 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

Any tampering physically in an attempt to access that HDD and warrantee won't be honoured....very fair I think considering the unit is not accessible for repairs.

 

Hmmm... the warranty exclusion text is not consistent with our laws  (although that's not surprising - so many companies have policies which don't match our consumer rights guarantees).

 

If I open the product, yes the manufacturer does not have to warranty against things I break....  however, entire warranty "does not apply".   No.

 

6 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

There is a socket on the system board and some speculation

 

Interesting.

 

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

You are very lucky to be treated that way with Apple.

 

That's what the laws in this country says should happen.

 

If I put a 3rd party SSD in a computer - even if the manufacturer says this is not allowed....   then this does not void my warranty, unless it can be proven (by the manufacturer) that the 3rd party SSD has contributed to the thing I am trying to have addressed under warranty.

 

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Ten years or so ago, you could upgrade a number of components in most Macs easily. For some years they've made it harder to get in: used special adaptors for components: and are now soldering just about every component onto the system board of the newest design.

 

I have read some interesting / detailed commentary from engineers attempting to dispel the myth that this was done specifically to try and limit consumer access to repair / upgrade .....  but purely out of design / cost / space issues.

 

Yes, Apple doesn't care you can't switch the SSD .... but they didn't solder it to the board because they WANT to limit choice / freedom.

 

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

The correct way of reading that clause in the warranty (I've asked) is that you have to use the same version or later Windows on the Surface Pro: no Linux or Android, no earlier version of Windows as the host OS. Enterprise customers may run a virtual machine with a different version of Windows. You can install the Educational or Enterprise version of Windows 10 on a Surface Pro 4 and it doesn't break warranty.

 

Indeed.   What I was saying before, is if I installed Linux on my Surface .... and then the screen is faulty (and nothing to do with Linux).... then I still get a warranty for the screen.

 

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

I get that the warranty is voided if you open the computer. 

 

Well, they say it is ;)

 

... but yes, I get what you mean.   If you had expensive data on the computer.... the simply being able to get the data, may be all one cares about.

1 hour ago, :) al said:

is there anything to suggest the data on the MacBook Pro is not accessible if the machine is dead as a doorknob as has been indicated this has been user accessible for all macs I know and I am not aware this situation has changed any.

 

Yes.  The SSD is built right into the mainboard, and not a standard socketed type which can be connected to another computer.

 

Unless Apple have a special way of being able to talk to the flash chips on an otherwise deal macbook pro logic board, then there is no way .... and even in this case, you are still reliant on Apple to do this for you.

1 hour ago, :) al said:

makers are very much making some things more difficult eg batteries and such...and not surprisingly so given potential of people. Upgrading diy with potential lethal results.

 

As mentioned, there are many people out there who claim to be (and do seem to be) in the know, saying these are the types of reasons driving companies.     The driver is simply smaller and cheaper.    Sockets and standard form-factors take space and $.

 

1 hour ago, :) al said:

frankly I don't know why we are even comparing with a surface pro.

 

The iPad Pro, also has a non-removable SSD   ;)

 

However the Surface is a direct competitor to the MacBook, in many/most ways IMHO .... as they both run the 'big' OS ie. Windows or OSX., as opposed to iOS - which is only a viable replacement for a limited segment.

 

Case in point, everyone at work is either using one of the Surface (basically as a laptop), or the MacBook... and I've seen a few XPS13s, or ThinkPad X1s  (which are both pretty pricey IMO).

 

That being said, I'd have an iPad Pro if I could afford one  (I use an iPad Mini and MacBook Air currently depending on the situation)

 

Edited by davewantsmoore
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1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Apple's attitude is to make it difficult to do things they don't want you to. Ten years or so ago, you could upgrade a number of components in most Macs easily. For some years they've made it harder to get in: used special adaptors for components: and are now soldering just about every component onto the system board of the newest design. As far as Apple are concerned, you should be using USB-C devices for any expansion now.

 

The correct way of reading that clause in the warranty (I've asked) is that you have to use the same version or later Windows on the Surface Pro: no Linux or Android, no earlier version of Windows as the host OS. Enterprise customers may run a virtual machine with a different version of Windows. You can install the Educational or Enterprise version of Windows 10 on a Surface Pro 4 and it doesn't break warranty.

 

As far as the removable SSD is concerned, you seem determined to misunderstand me. I get that the warranty is voided if you open the computer. But let me put this scenario to you again: you have a Surface Pro that is broken and will not start. On the hard drive is the only copy of some data worth half a million pounds to your company. Do you open the machine and recover the data from the SSD, or do you hand the computer to Microsoft for replacement and never see the data again? To me that's a no-brainer. Now do the same with the MacBook Pro with the Touch Bar. Unless they will hand over the data, safely and securely, they don't get the machine in either case.

 

I did say that unless you are a major account and have rewritten that sales agreement to load any OS on I can see they will make an acception.  For the average guy on the street the standard written warranty stands!

That arguement on data loss has no merit in this day and age.  As someone who works for a hardware support where software is loaded nearly all hardware support organisations will tell there clientele and have it in writing that they are responsible for the data they load on that hardware and will not accept any responsibilities for its loss or handling.  I doubt any organisation these days will allow only one individual to access $billions on data and not securely back it up!   Let's say that that was the case, and you are the only one with that unique data, you'd be silly if you didn't back it up on another drive and yes  if you're that silly than its no brainer to smash that Surface Pro to physically access that SSD.  Either way whether it's Apple or MS neither will cover that on warranty.

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7 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

Either way whether it's Apple or MS neither will cover that on warranty.

 

Yes, that's right  (the discussion wasn't about the 'warranty')

 

The point is in the macbook, you cannot access the data (assuming the computer won't start) .... and in other computers, you can remove the SSD and access the data in another computer.

 

9 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

you seem determined to misunderstand me

 

I'd be very surprised if it were on purpose ;)

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