bhobba

ML5

96 posts in this topic

Just a bit curious about what Martin Logans we are comparing it with? like all speaker manufacturers there is a range,,,,, I'd love to hear that they make the CLX Art sound average....Sadly I havent heard them yet but I have heard very good comments from those that know,,,,

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Look forward to comparing them to some Ambience 1800 Reference ribbons...then we will know...

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Hi Guys

 

Here are the pictures of the basic ML5's Mike will be taking around the country.

 

Rawl99, Mike, Me and others are still working on tweaking the uber ML5's - it improving all the time.

 

Last time I heard it we were getting some amazing sounds, but evidently its got better since then.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

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Edited by bhobba

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Posted (edited)

Hu Guys - And Of Course Girls - We just had International Women's Day.

 

Well I was over at Rawl99's place last week listening to the latest iteration of the ML5 we are tweaking.

 

It gets better and better all the time.  Latest thing we were looking at is internal wiring.  Gee its sounding really sweet.  Don't know what magic stuff was being used but it was good.  Next thing being looked at is the feet it will rest on.

 

I will be heading on over next week with the Duelund Silver Bypass to see if they make a difference now.   Last time we tried it it sort of put a bit of an annoying highlight on the treble that didn't sound nice.  But we were using a Master Tape machine as source and now think it had issues.   Mike came over and was not that impressed.  We switched to a el cheapo squeezebox as source and it was, strangely quite a bit better.  Using that the bypasses a massive positive difference.  

 

Now its using a Killer Dac and will see exactly what they do.

 

Mike is also nearing completion of my friend Kevin from down in Canberra uber ML5's.  Once that is finished before Kev takes delivery (and yes Mike has already agreed to a GTG in Canberra when that happens - Rawl will be there as well) it will be at Mike's so people can listen.  By then my Magnesium Limited's will be finished.  The prototype had a very distinctive sound - speed like I never heard before, incredible detail retrieval, and a window like transparency, but a bit on the cold side.  That comparison should prove quite interesting.

 

Despite loving the ML5's to bits, and thinking right now they are better overall than the prototype Magnesium's, it may turn out the Magnesium's float my boat better.   We will see.  Have decided on the final capacitors I will be using with them - I will post more info in the Magnesium thread.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

Edited by bhobba
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What tweeter?

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Seas X3-06-T35....

  • Nominal impedance [Zn]: 6 ?
  • Recommended frequency range: 1.5…25 kHz
  • Resonance frequency [fs]: 600 Hz
  • Sensitivity [2.83 V?1m]: 94 dB
  • Power [P]: 100 W (RMS) ? 250 W (max)

The Exotic T35 is a classic dome midrange tweeter with high sensitivity and a smooth, extended frequency response. A coated fabric dome with integral surround manufactured by Dr. K. Müller in Germany ensures excellent performance and consistency. This supplier was among the fi rst in the world to offer fabric dome diaphragms, and did produce the diaphragm for the famous 1.5” Dome Tweeter H087, developed by Seas in 1968. A high efficiency Alnico V ring magnet in a carefully designed system contributes to high sensitivity and low distortion.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Rob181 said:

Seas X3-06-T35.

  •  

 

Otherwise known as Seas Exotic:

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=346:x3-06-exotic-t35&catid=56&Itemid=248

 

Quite possibly the best tweeter in the world - certainly before Seas released their uber expensive Diamond tweeter its most expensive.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited by bhobba

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Hi Mike,

you said in an earlier post;

 the woofer cone has a beaming profile and the tweeter has a Flaring profile , the two have to be married together to produce a linear smooth power response across at least 120degrees. 

However in the SEAS tweeter specs it shows the tweeter 6db down, and 12db down @ 10Khz for 30deg and 60deg off axis response respectively. More at higher freq. isn't that more like beaming?

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13 hours ago, frankn said:

Hi Mike,

you said in an earlier post;

 the woofer cone has a beaming profile and the tweeter has a Flaring profile , the two have to be married together to produce a linear smooth power response across at least 120degrees. 

However in the SEAS tweeter specs it shows the tweeter 6db down, and 12db down @ 10Khz for 30deg and 60deg off axis response respectively. More at higher freq. isn't that more like beaming?

Frank

pedantically speaking all drivers have a beaming profile in that as the freq gets higher the angle of dispersion gets lesser.

I think the point that Mike is making is that the woofer is starting to beam in the frequency range near the crossover point because for the larger driver of the woofer that represents a rather high freq (wrt wavelength va driver diameter), whereas for the tweeter it is a very low  freq ( wrt wavelength vs driver diameter) so the tweeter near the crossover point is acting very much with a flaring characteristic.

It is the seamless as possible matching of these characteristics (plus phase and amplitude) at the crossover point that heavily impacts whether the individual drivers "speak as one voice" and give an accurate or natural power response, or not.

Mike, pls correct any errors on my part.

cheers

Rawl

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Hi Guys

 

Down at Mikes paying for stuff and was told the Duelunds for the uber M5's have arrived and their construction will start soon.

 

The only trouble is you must buy the VSF copper in lots on 10 these days.  Mike got 12 in so he can do three - 4 needed for each pair.  My friend Kev has fully paid for a pair.  Another guy has put a down-payment so he has secured a pair.  If another person want's to secure a pair give Mike a tingle.

 

Since they need to be bought in lots of at least 10 then after that you will need to wait for 3 orders before they can be built.

 

Mike is busy, busy, busy preparing for the Adelaide GTG.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited by bhobba

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1 hour ago, ljmac said:

Wouldn't the RS be a better choice than the VSF?

 

Have done the comparison - a bit dry for my, Mike and Rawl's taste.  But if people want them Mike will do it - BTW slightly less expensive than VSF - but not much (maybe the reverse when buying 10 - don't know - but it probably wont be much). Will do Cast as well but since you need 4 the cost - WOW.

 

We (meaning me, Mike and Rawp99 on separate comparisons) have done the comparison of:

1.  VSF Copper

2.  Jupiter Copper

3.  Jupiter Aluminium

4   Jantzen Silver

5.  Jantzen Superior

6.  Obligato Gold

 

We did them all with and without Duelund Silver Bypass. 

 

They will be at the Capacitor GTG plus Erse and maybe others.  It will be on my ML2 Limited so the comparison will include Cast.

 

Our ordering was:

1.  VSF Copper - neutral and natural

2.  Jupiter Copper - nice sound but slightly bloomy - ie euphoric but not the last word in neutrality.  Also more expensive than the VSF.  I decided on them in my Magnesium Limited for two reasons.   First the slight bloom will combat the slight coldness it has.  Secodly VSF's are available only in lots of 10.

3.  A tie between Jupiter Aluminium - Jantzen Superior.  Not a lot in it but I preferred the Jupiter - others including Mike the Jantzen.  The Jantzen is what Mike decided on in the Standard ML5 he is taking around.

4.  Jatzen Siver - unatural detail and leading edges.

4.  Obbligato - disgusting actually - but when bypassed acceptable

 

All were improved by the bypass with one exception, the VSF.   When using a Master Tape Machine as source they tended to highlight treble unacceptably - but that may have been something wrong with the tapes used.  We did it with a simple Squeezebox as source and the silver bypass were easily better.   Will be doing it with the Killer DAC as source soon.

 

Thanks

Bill 

Edited by bhobba

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So the RS aren't CAST on the cheap after all. That's good to know I guess, given that I already shelled out for the CAST. :)

 

One has to wonder how the VSF Black would have fared.

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11 hours ago, ljmac said:

So the RS aren't CAST on the cheap after all. That's good to know I guess, given that I already shelled out for the CAST. :)One has to wonder how the VSF Black would have fared.

 

They maybe Cast on the cheap.   They are rated better than the VSF at Humble Home Hi Fi in their huge capacitor comparison:

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

 

A lot of personal taste comes into it.  Obbligato for example are rated highly - very surprisingly they sounded like rubbish - but who knows, they may sound great to some - certainly people that attend the GTG will find out.

 

We would like to include the RS in the GTG and in the past they were more expensive than VSF, but recently that has been reversed, being now discounted heavily at Parts Connection, which may be saying something eg they are more of a mass produced item:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/cap_film_duel_rs_speaker.html

 

BTW the VSF are not discontinued - as a distributer like Mike is you just have to get 10 or more.

 

But rationalizations have to be made as far as what capacitors are at the GTG and having heard them was not that impressed so decided against including them. 

 

If anyone want's to bring them they are more than welcome - I think we need 2x10uf and 2X6.8 but double check with Mike if thinking about it.  I already have got the Jupiter's for the comparison so think I have done my share :P:P.

 

Thanks

Bill 

 

Edited by bhobba

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On 12/03/2017 at 7:10 PM, frankn said:

Hi Mike,

you said in an earlier post;

 the woofer cone has a beaming profile and the tweeter has a Flaring profile , the two have to be married together to produce a linear smooth power response across at least 120degrees. 

However in the SEAS tweeter specs it shows the tweeter 6db down, and 12db down @ 10Khz for 30deg and 60deg off axis response respectively. More at higher freq. isn't that more like beaming?

 

He means in the region where the drivers overlap....   so more like roughly 1000Hz to 4000Hz (where you can see the tweeter coverage pattern becomes wider)

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11 hours ago, bhobba said:

 

They maybe Cast on the cheap.   They are rated better than the VSF at Humble Home Hi Fi in their huge capacitor comparison:

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

 

A lot of personal taste comes into it.  Obbligato for example are rated highly - very surprisingly they sounded like rubbish - but who knows, they may sound great to some - certainly people that attend the GTG will find out.

 

We would like to include the RS in the GTG and in the past they were more expensive than VSF, but recently that has been reversed, being now discounted heavily at Parts Connection, which may be saying something eg they are more of a mass produced item:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/cap_film_duel_rs_speaker.html

 

BTW the VSF are not discontinued - as a distributer like Mike is you just have to get 10 or more.

 

But rationalizations have to be made as far as what capacitors are at the GTG and having heard them was not that impressed so decided against including them. 

 

If anyone want's to bring them they are more than welcome - I think we need 2x10uf and 2X6.8 but double check with Mike if thinking about it.  I already have got the Jupiter's for the comparison so think I have done my share :P:P.

 

Thanks

Bill 

 

 

I actually posted the same findings with the Obbligator gold many moons ago on this forum.  I've had MKP made up here in Melbourne when Erricson was here marketing RIFA caps.  They wound there plastic caps here in a factory of Bell St Preston.  I bought 6 custom made MKP 400V 50uf to use for a 1st order on a ribbon tweeter.  The Obbliator gold are total rubbish and a waste of cash compared to these and I never relied on that BS site again in cap rating.  From now on it's all in the specs especially when it comes to caps,  the dv/dt and the absorbtion factor says it all.  Relying on some else's ears is total BS, especially if you weren't present when that observation was made with the same setup. IMO some of the WIMA MKP is better than any Obbligator. 

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I have to say that there are an enormous number of variables involved in testing caps, and having only one guy who's tested a wide range of them is very unreliable. Unfortunately there has to be a lot of trust involved in this, but at least with Duelund, it seems everyone agrees they are the best (which they ought to be at their outrageous prices)..

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10 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I'm confused. Are we still talking about Mike's new speakers :)

 

Could be...if you go "cap in hand"...

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On 2017-3-18 at 10:22 PM, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I'm confused. Are we still talking about Mike's new speakers :)

 

In a round about way yes, although much of it belongs in the capacitor GTG.

 

For the Uber ML5's, Reference, Limited or whatever Mike wants to call it he has a couple of orders already.  He had to decide on Caps.  Cast were simply too expensive because you need at least 2 per speaker rather than just one as in the ML2.   He had to make a decision and decided on the VSF.  It was at the time cheaper than the RS and since from past experience sounded better than the RS, the VSF was decided on.  BUT you must buy them in at least lots of 10 as a dealer (which of course Mike is) - which means at least 3 orders.   He had two firm orders so took a punt he will get another.  Hence my post about anyone wanting a pair.

 

Since then Parts Connection has slashed the price of RS so they are now slightly cheaper than VSF.

 

Why is the issue - is it because they aren't selling since the VSF were cheaper and sounded better, or is it they are now made in larger bulk quantities so you get economies of scale.  I don't know, nor does Mike, nor does Rawl99.  Our guess is they are not selling as the VSF is better and cheaper, so the price was slashed - but that's just a guess.

 

Mike will look into it when he gets back from Adelaide ie has the price been slashed by Duelund which will indicate one thing, or is the price the same and Parts Connection is slashing the price perhaps because they aren't selling.

 

Mike thinks the first pair of Uber ML5's will be finished end of April - maybe a little sooner.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited by bhobba

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