eltech Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) NOS FUZZ Edited November 8, 2016 by eltech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 You did read this below. Seems he prefers to listen in NOS mode too even with all the NOSFUZZ. " Almost ALL my serious listening was done playing PCM material with the DAC in NOS mode! Outside of DSD-listening, which I’ll come back to, NOS replay is the only mode I would personally use this DAC in. It’s good in over-sampling mode, but other DACs simply do that better/more enjoyably for me, and even driving it with HQ Player I found no combination of settings that I enjoyed as much as I did the Spring’s native NOS replay mode. But in NOS mode, well, this is one of the most enjoyable DACs I’ve ever had the pleasure to listen to. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, rocky500 said: Another Holo review. Looks like a Level 3 model again. http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/holo-audio-spring-dac-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition-impressions-reviews.3172/ Thanks to Rocky500, I had three days of careful listening to the Holodac and my views on it basically mirror the review mentioned above. Here is what I said about the Holo to a couple of SNA members a week ago ... "Hi, the reason for my call out to you is to say I have the Holodac+Singster+Curious Cable in house borrowed from Rocky500 and I am quite enamored by it. I am on the lookout for an uber DAC around the $2-3K mark to service DSD replay through my Tassopedes+Chanh PS computer audio set up and after trying out about a dozen DAC candidates, this one seems to hit the spot - it makes the jump to being something extra special. The result I am hearing with the Holodac is ultra detail; an explicitness to the music; fantastic separation between performers on the stage; excellent dynamics and a falling away of the grunge in and around the different instruments in a recording. The decay aspects of piano, acoustic instruments and explosive nature of drum strikes is superb ...a sign of the low level dynamics that the Holodac is able to portray over lesser DA converters. Guitar strokes squeak and decay like crazy and violin tones are fleshed out to the nth degree and the general timing of the music is excellent through the Holodac. I don't necessarily want this to sound like a rave, but my gut feeling is that this combo is a bit of a ground breaker at the price point." [#1 Steve] "What I have already heard in the Holo is a unique signature of untangling low level dynamics in a way that maybe fails in all other dacs I have heard so far. The Holo sounds like all the grunge in between the instruments/players in the sound stage have fallen away leaving a stark background. This sounds like a clinical description, but is not. It just sounds more accurate and grunge free to me and lays the music bare ...pure. Also, with the Holo it is the first time I have actually heard that DSD can make a significant positive improvement over 44.1/16. Previously with other dacs/sacd players I thought that while DSD sounded quite natural it maybe softened the overall sound and dynamics compared to 44.1. With the Holo - DSD sounds sharper, more detailed and attacking (while still relaxed and realistic at the same time}." [#2 Steve] On a similar note, I also borrowed a Klein DAC II from Conch Blower and was very surprised by how good it sounds considering it is one third the cost of the Holodac set-up. Here are my comments on the Klein DAC II ... "Hi, I have got a Klein II DSD dac borrowed atm, using AK4490EQ premium chip and it does sound very good! I would rank it a close second to Holo with the several dacs I've tried recently. Like the Holo it functions perfectly too, switching well between the various formats and sampling rates. Clay has done a marvelous job of it I reckon for $1K RRP. The Klein may actually be more musical than the Holo and its tempting to get one at the price. Tonally and detail wise very good, the Klein maybe just missing that special quality of the Holo where the latter buttons down a very clear and delineated sound stage wrought by its ability to portray small dynamic contrasts in the music - what we are all chasing I guess as we aim towards an uber dac at lower cost." [#3 Steve] All just in my humble opinion ... Cheers, Steve. Edited November 8, 2016 by Steve M 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scratcher Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Great write up Steve, well said mate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltech Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, rocky500 said: You did read this below. Seems he prefers to listen in NOS mode too even with all the NOSFUZZ. I absolutely did read that. did you read my posts above where I wrote 11 hours ago, eltech said: I lived with NOS DACs for 10 years and 11 hours ago, eltech said: i'm well aquainted with what they do well and what they dont do well. I dont know how much you know about DACs, but the fuzz can be removed with an analogue "brickwall" filter. Some early (meaning first and second generation) CD players used these filters to remove the aliasing. I actually quite like some of these earlier players because they run without oversampling and they use R2R DAC chips. However some people are quite sensitive to the phase change at high frequencies that the analogue "brickwall" filter introduces so companies started making oversampling filter chips to proceed the DAC chips to move the aliasing outside the passband. So for example a 4x oversampling filter runs the clock at 44.1x4 = 176.4khz and uses interpolation. I think it's nifty., and basically the same thing happens when people upsample using software on their PC. Where a NOS DAC has an advantage is playing audio which is recorded at a high sample rate such as 176.4khz or 192khz. The audio contains more frequency information and does not require interpolation, and the DAC does not require sharp filters, so that there are no phase issues in the passband. - But as I stated before, which is a fact, if you are just playing a 44.1khz file into your NOS DAC, and that DAC doesnt have a brickwall analogue filter you will get aliasing. Yes it is audible. To me it makes the midrange and higher frequencies sound fuzzy, this is made more apparent when switching back and forth between a NOS DAC and an oversampling DAC. But, the aliasing may not be immediately apparent if only listening to a NOS DAC in isolation. I do still own one NOS DAC which uses the PCM58 chips. Its a very good DAC, but I personally prefer my oversampling R2R DAC. It doesnt matter to me if you are enjoying NOS. I too did enjoy it for 10 years, and do understand and apreciate why you and other people like it. I was not intending to belittle anyones personal choice, but did want to express my disapoinment that Holo had not implemented their oversampling algorithmn as well as Schiit with thier Yggy DAC as was pointed out in that review. I think if Holo improves thier oversampling in Version 2 they will be onto an absolute winner. I did also want to point out the technical flaws with NOS DACs and provide an example of what aliasing sounds like which is why I linked to the wikipedia article with the audio example, and show pictures of what aliasing looks like on an oscilloscope. If you still dont understand I am happy to plug in my NOS DAC and oscilloscope and take photos of the waveform at various frequencies for you or anyone who is interested. Edited November 9, 2016 by eltech 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 2 hours ago, eltech said: I absolutely did read that. did you read my posts above where I wrote and I dont know how much you know about DACs, but the fuzz can be removed with an analogue "brickwall" filter. Some early (meaning first and second generation) CD players used these filters to remove the aliasing. I actually quite like some of these earlier players because they run without oversampling and they use R2R DAC chips. However some people are quite sensitive to the phase change at high frequencies that the analogue "brickwall" filter introduces so companies started making oversampling filter chips to proceed the DAC chips to move the aliasing outside the passband. So for example a 4x oversampling filter runs the clock at 44.1x4 = 176.4khz and uses interpolation. I think it's nifty., and basically the same thing happens when people upsample using software on their PC. Where a NOS DAC has an advantage is playing audio which is recorded at a high sample rate such as 176.4khz or 192khz. The audio contains more frequency information and does not require interpolation, and the DAC does not require sharp filters, so that there are no phase issues in the passband. - But as I stated before, which is a fact, if you are just playing a 44.1khz file into your NOS DAC, and that DAC doesnt have a brickwall analogue filter you will get aliasing. Yes it is audible. To me it makes the midrange and higher frequencies sound fuzzy, this is made more apparent when switching back and forth between a NOS DAC and an oversampling DAC. But, the aliasing may not be immediately apparent if only listening to a NOS DAC in isolation. I do still own one NOS DAC which uses the PCM58 chips. Its a very good DAC, but I personally prefer my oversampling R2R DAC. It doesnt matter to me if you are enjoying NOS. I too did enjoy it for 10 years, and do understand and apreciate why you and other people like it. I was not intending to belittle anyones personal choice, but did want to express my disapoinment that Holo had not implemented their oversampling algorithmn as well as Schiit with thier Yggy DAC as was pointed out in that review. I think if Holo improves thier oversampling in Version 2 they will be onto an absolute winner. I did also want to point out the technical flaws with NOS DACs and provide an example of what aliasing sounds like which is why I linked to the wikipedia article with the audio example, and show pictures of what aliasing looks like on an oscilloscope. If you still dont understand I am happy to plug in my NOS DAC and oscilloscope and take photos of the waveform at various frequencies for you or anyone who is interested. I personally take all your posts on board myself as you seem one smart cookie who has lots of experience in these areas. The Holo looks semi modular, so maybe they could look at upgraded boards down the track too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) It was mentioned that Over sampling could be a good way to go on a R2R dac. I tried it quickly before but thought NOS was better. Being that the Holo uses a different chipset for OS got me thinking that it might need some time. So I ran my Holo with PCM 44.1K in OS mode 24 hours straight and was listening today to my music. I really like it! I noticed a lot on the net do not think OS works too well on the Holo. Being that it uses a different section of the Dac, could it possibly just need a little more time to run in? I plan to keep it this way for a week then swap back to compare. I did that with DSD too and ran it straight all night with DSD material for a week. Possibly now sounds better. (I think it uses a different set of resistors for DSD) Could even be my Singxer SU-1 running in if that is a thing. This could be all in my head but maybe others might at some time run it in OS mode for some time to see if it changes for them. The only way to really tell is to run it up against a new one some day. Found this The oversampling is done by AK4137, 'OS PCM' converts the input stream to PCM no matter it is PCM or DSD, then send to DAC. 'OS DSD' converts the input stream to DSD no matter is is PCM or DSD, then send to DAC. 'OS' oversamples the input stream. If it is DSD input, it oversample to DSD256. If it is PCM input, it oversample to PCM384K or 352.8K 'NOS' does no oversampling. send the input stream directly to DAC module. Edited November 16, 2016 by rocky500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) Another review up http://www.head-fi.org/products/holo-audio-spring-dac-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition/reviews/17337 Actually it may just be an expanded one from before. Edited November 20, 2016 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiiiii Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 I would love a review comparing the 3 levels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 The differences are likely to be subtle ...circuit design first (already VERY good) and boutique parts second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiiiii Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Well since the price delta between Level 1 and Level 2 is not much, the Level 2 is very gettable, but just curious to see if the Level 3 is worth the significant outlay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Cardiiiii said: Well since the price delta between Level 1 and Level 2 is not much, the Level 2 is very gettable, but just curious to see if the Level 3 is worth the significant outlay. I went for Level 2 as it was only $200 more (not that much more in the total price) and they had to order the Capacitors from the Jensen factory. I thought at least they would be new stock & original caps. Still waiting for another west aussie to buy the Level 3, so we can compare. Edited November 20, 2016 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) Yes, a Level 2 Holodac with the Jensen caps is a no-brainer, but the next jump with silver transformer @+$1000AUD makes you stop and think?? The audio marketeers do this to torture us I think or to get more money out of our wallets . In this game, the last few % do matter I suppose - if your system is already at a very good level, maybe a Level 3 Holo is worth it, who knows? All I can say is would an Audionote Ongaku valve amplifier @ RRP $120K sound the same without its silver transformers maybe not? If you need to ask this question then you are not really in the market for an Ongaku. Audio myth vs the truth ...about the silver trafos, a bit like the dreaded Bybee debate. Steve. Edited November 20, 2016 by Steve M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenelectro Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 On 17/11/2016 at 1:44 AM, rocky500 said: It was mentioned that Over sampling could be a good way to go on a R2R dac. I tried it quickly before but thought NOS was better. Being that the Holo uses a different chipset for OS got me thinking that it might need some time. So I ran my Holo with PCM 44.1K in OS mode 24 hours straight and was listening today to my music. I really like it! I noticed a lot on the net do not think OS works too well on the Holo. Being that it uses a different section of the Dac, could it possibly just need a little more time to run in? I plan to keep it this way for a week then swap back to compare. I did that with DSD too and ran it straight all night with DSD material for a week. Possibly now sounds better. (I think it uses a different set of resistors for DSD) Could even be my Singxer SU-1 running in if that is a thing. This could be all in my head but maybe others might at some time run it in OS mode for some time to see if it changes for them. The only way to really tell is to run it up against a new one some day. Found this The oversampling is done by AK4137, 'OS PCM' converts the input stream to PCM no matter it is PCM or DSD, then send to DAC. 'OS DSD' converts the input stream to DSD no matter is is PCM or DSD, then send to DAC. 'OS' oversamples the input stream. If it is DSD input, it oversample to DSD256. If it is PCM input, it oversample to PCM384K or 352.8K 'NOS' does no oversampling. send the input stream directly to DAC module. - If oversampling is done with AK4137 - that may explain why OS is not preferred. 4137 is an ASRC chip that also reduces jitter artifacts. It depends on how they have implemented this chip, in synchronous mode or asynchronous mode. ASRC chips are good problem solvers but for ultimate performance prolly not best choice as they will manifest their own set of issues. It also remains to be seen how good their OS filters are - Certainly they would be inferior to filters in something like HQPlayer. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rab of Everest Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Great review, but suffers from the same issue as a lot of others: if you use hqplayer, you don't need to use the os modes, and you get the best of both worlds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krakatana Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 @rocky500 That's interesting Rob, he liked I2S the most. I2S > AES >= COAX >= TOSLINK > USB How's your Singxer sounding now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, krakatana said: @rocky500 That's interesting Rob, he liked I2S the most. I2S > AES >= COAX >= TOSLINK > USB How's your Singxer sounding now? I use Lenehan speakers and they can be prone to sounding very slightly veiled in my room and system especially when I use warm sounding components. This is kind of what I was getting with just the Holo Dac. It is a very fine line but it is there. I felt like it was missing something. With the Singxer it has increased the level to where I am just enjoying the music. Its just more open and natural sounding. I find with the Holo/Singxer combo, I have to turn the volume up a few more clicks on the preamp from my previous Dacs and then it all falls into place. I have only used i2S since I got the Singxer. Just went back to NOS mode today and it is better than before. Edited November 23, 2016 by rocky500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nada Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Russian brilliance + Vodka + Holo = strip-down Im shocked The Jensen caps have no spelling mistakes! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltech Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 I only found out about the Rockna Wavedream DAC today. Its another discreet R2R DAC. It appears to have been released around 2014 which makes it proceed the Holo Spring and Schiit Yggy. Its much more expensive than either of those. 6moons reviewed it well. Just thought it might be of interest to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nada Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 The Rockna DAC claim amazing measurements as below but how much does it cost? Cost is critical and I think that is where the Holo is a breakthrough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltech Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Nada said: but how much does it cost? I think it was at least 4000 Euro and more for the upmarket model. 7 hours ago, Nada said: The Rockna DAC claim amazing measurements Sure are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Rockna Wavedream prices. Prices: Platinum SE $8,085 inc GST Platinum Balanced $11,535 inc GST Signature SE $16,335 inc GST Signature Balanced $19,635 inc GST The Holo sure seems value for money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltech Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 I wonder if the Signature sounds twice as good as the Platinum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbelo Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I have the Holo, the Rockna and the PD2 , I am reseller for all. All R2R and for me I prefer in sequence , the Rockna Platinium Bal , the PD2 E 6000 and last the Holo. PD2 includes a fine Preamp and balanced XLR inputs for HT operation. Rockna has no analogue inputs but inc preamp, For DSD512 use PC server with HQP and a new Network Server unit which upsamples files to 512 on the fly without PC , same quality and very much user friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mivera Audio Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) On 12/20/2016 at 1:25 AM, a.dent said: Rockna Wavedream prices. Prices: Platinum SE $8,085 inc GST Platinum Balanced $11,535 inc GST Signature SE $16,335 inc GST Signature Balanced $19,635 inc GST The Holo sure seems value for money You forgot the Soekris. 100% made in Denmark rather than China from high quality parts. Power with a decent supply and it has the potential to beat the Holo for under $400: http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/consumer-line-dac1101/soekris-aps-dac1101.html Edited January 21, 2017 by Mivera Audio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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