betty boop Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 31 minutes ago, Tweaky said: Yeah but LCD's don't suffer burn in like OLED's - similar to old Plasma displays - hence not the ideal type of TV if you do a lot of gaming, which tend to have a lot of static images where score bars etc are. news to me, and have owned plasmas 3 off them over last 13 years ? and have owned 4 gaming consoles over that time, watched live sport all day long with car racing and cricket with logos score boards/banners and such over those years and never had burn in. burn in is one of those things people got in early plasmas where they bought from the shop never did even the most rudimentary setup and left on the retina burning cranked to the max shop settings. if burn is fud created for oled like was for plasma then noting id personally give a second thought. 31 minutes ago, Tweaky said: Plus they are not as bright, which is why they aren't as good for 3D, and one of the reasons LG said it will stop making them 3D capable..... and since Sony is now sourcing their panels from LG, it leaves Sony in the position of having to follow suite in dropping 3D support, even though they were the ones who made the biggest deal about it on release. i would personally disagree they are not as bright for 3D. projectors even the monster ones ones in commercial theatres are no way as bright as for 3D. for 3D can easily enjoy with output around the 50 nits mark and it looks seriously good ! well oled by comparison are capable about 120 upto 800 nits while lcd is capable of 2000 nits ... you simply dont need that for 3D unless wanting to tan your retinas ! the only reasons LCDs have gone up in output by the way is for HDR they cant do the blacks of the OLEDs and hence for high dynamic range they head the other way to blind you to get dynamic range. but regardless by all means go with what pleases best your preferences.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I've got the final model Panasonic ST from 2013 and it has a bit of permanent damage. I've seen a last model Panasonic VT in JB-Hifi with permanent damage too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I suppose it's all relative to just how much use any particular TV gets a day on just how bad burn-in gets, compounded by the ratio of how high the owner has the brightness turned up over that time. A new TV's arrival can lead to marathon viewing sessions, and I think it would be pretty safe to say that most people would not adjust their new TV from it's factory settings, apart from turning the brightness - and probably the colour , UP [ As somebody who has calibrated many a friend and relatives TV's, I've never once found I had to turn a TV's brightness up from whatever state it is when I first get my hands on it ] This is usually dependent on the ambient light in the room.....most places now days are open plan, or have large amounts of glass or both, either way there can be lots of ambient light to wash out a TV's picture, hence that's why people tend to turn the brightness up. Put a OLED TV in that sort of situation, with it's already slightly diminished light output, and I wouldn't think it that far fetched that burn-in will raise it's head quicker than some would think. OLED is a relatively new tech, we just don't know for sure, and at the prices being asked for the TV's, if it were me, I'd rather not find out 2 or 3 years down the track that my TV is showing this wear.....that's if it's still running [we don't know what the failure rates are going to be over the next few years....Samsung didn't pull out of OLED for no good reason ] The 'expected' half life expectancy of a OLED TV is 30,000 hours, by that I mean till it is half as bright as it was when new, much like a aging projector lamp......I'd expect a noticeable performance drop off before that milestone, especially in vibrancy and the ability to reproduce colours accurately. I'll let others be the 'Long Term' guinea pigs for the moment, till the 4th or 5th generation OLED or it's replacement, whatever that might be...probably QLED, or a reworked and updated version of Sony's 'Crystal LCD' hits the market. As nice as OLED is when it's new, and it is spectacular I admit, I know I'm the sort of user that due to me having the equipment, and being able to calibrate my TV's / PJ myself, would know all too well just how much of a performance drop of I was suffering after 12/18 months of the sort of usage a TV gets at my place, and probably be quite a bit miffed about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 How did you find the Sammy after calibration? No before shots to side-by-side? Hi Spyne, this one was a re-calibration, so no before and after shots I'm afraid. However, I remembered your post and managed to get some before and after shots of an OLED I calibrated last night. Hopefully, I will find some time to post them over the next couple of days. I have done a lot of experimentation with Samsung LED/LCD's and I find with the right combination of backlight, contrast, brightness and gamma they have a beautiful sense of depth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 "In the second shot, to me the left of the screen, from the far left edge in to midway between the left edge of the shed, looks like the Green Bias is out compared to the rest of the screen" I had another look at the photo and can see a slight green coming through on the clouds on the left-hand side. I suspect this may have been the angle I took the photo, or the camera through which I took it (mobile-phone), as it's only the left-hand side. If there was a greyscale error, it would slso be visible in other parts of the picture, the sky in particular would look have a cyan hue.I do both a 2 point and 10 point greyscale calibration with a combination of a spectro and colorimeter (which is profiled to the spectro), double check grayscale windows and ramps by eye and also check with actual video material that I know and trust, so there's no room for error. :-) "What is BIAS lighting anyway, first I've heard of it..... by having the word BIAS in it, I'm guessing it only works in the 65%-90% range, and leaves the range that would be calibrated with the RGB Gain controls alone." Bias lighting is mounted behind the screen and if setup correctly, provides a small amount of illumination behind the screen. It's used to help avoid eye-strain and improve 'perceived' contrast ratio (if you switch the room lights on blacks seem darker on an LCD/LED, while the actual contrast ratio of the display hasn't changed, the perceived contrast ratio has...) In this particular case, the customer was using an Antec bias light. I reviewed one a couple of year's ago for StereoNet and I found they had a blue bias. Ideally, you want a bias light that does D65 (white) to match the calibrated display, any thing else (much like changing the wall colour behind a display) will skew the perceived colour (particularly white balance) of the display. "REC.709 have you calibrated any of those Hisense 4K TV's, the K700UWD model range to be specific ? I somewhat doubt somebody would call out a ISF tech to calibrate such a cheap TV, but some tech website are giving the picture quality a good rap, if not their 'Smart TV' software, which from reading reviews seems to be woeful. I only ask as I was thinking of getting one to keep in storage as a spare 3D TV, I've no interest in any of it's 'Smart ' abilities" hehe... it's funny you should ask. While I haven't calibrated a Hisense TV yet, I have had a few people ask me the the same question recently. I have read the review also and must admit, I'm a little curios to see how they shape up after calibration. Hopefully one day my curiosity will be satisfied and I will report back. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faxcomp Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Well Rec. 709, to help out the curious, you can calibrate my brand new HiSense 75M7000UWD for free so that you can post your findings. I'm a really nice guy like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benje Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 faxcomp I was going to suggest that you start up a 'kick-starter' campaign so that all of the curious could finance your calibration by Rec 709. Benje 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faxcomp Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Best idea I've heard for ages Benje Start pledging your support HiSense supporters and we'll even have a GTG on the day it's calibrated so you can see it first hand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) I just visited JB on the way home to check both the Sony and Hisense TV's. What I hate about JB is they seldom if ever, put the bloody model number of the TV you are looking at on the price label, just the tech description. The Sony they had situated below knee level on a multi screen wall, so it was less than flattering when viewing, not unexpectedly, it looked washed out when viewed downwards at nearly 45 % [My knees aren't the best ATM, didn't want to tempt fate by squatting down to have a good look at the screen] add to that the reflection of at least 6 to 8 fluorescent tubes screwing up any possible means to view the qualities any of the TV's possess, it was a rather pointless wast of time. I did notice with a 70+cm HiSense K model, that when showing a picture of a Sky, be it sunset or sunrise, where you get the gradual fading of blue into red over a large portion of the screen, there was quite a large amount of blocky pixelation when that scene moved due to camera panning, more so than I would normally notice.....there could be a few reasons for this [How close I was to that 70+ cm screen at the time] among other things, so I'll search out a better demo elsewhere, but it's something to be wary of and to look out for if interested in this TV. The Sony and Hisense LCD TV's probably share the same panels, but from my experience working with other brands, a LOT of the picture quality depends on the internal video processing of the TV.....some are good, some are great, some like the Hisense seem to have very basic processing, which is like having a really nice Shirt/Suit material made to measure, and then end up not Ironing it, it looks crap because you didn't follow through. One thing I wasn't able to find out is what 3D glasses are the Hisense TV's compatible with, I see they are active, so I'm guessing it's Sony ones. Edited February 1, 2017 by Tweaky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 Well Rec. 709, to help out the curious, you can calibrate my brand new HiSense 75M7000UWD for free so that you can post your findings. I'm a really nice guy like that. [emoji6] That's very generous of you faxcomp. [emoji41]Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Spyne~ Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 18 hours ago, Tweaky said: I just visited JB on the way home to check both the Sony and Hisense TV's. The Sony they had situated below knee level on a multi screen wall, so it was less than flattering when viewing, not unexpectedly, it looked washed out when viewed downwards at nearly 45 %... add to that the reflection of at least 6 to 8 fluorescent tubes screwing up any possible means to view the qualities any of the TV's possess, it was a rather pointless wast of time. I did notice with a 70+cm HiSense K model, that when showing a picture of a Sky, be it sunset or sunrise, where you get the gradual fading of blue into red over a large portion of the screen, there was quite a large amount of blocky pixelation when that scene moved due to camera panning, more so than I would normally notice.... Yes, JB is quite a waste of time if you want to do some meaningful PQ testing But then, so are just about all the 'box mover' stores (GG, HN, BL, Myer, DJ, etc). The Hisense 'K' model you looked at is not their most recent effort, that would be the 'M7000' models which are getting all the praise of late. My parents recently bought a Hisense 'K3100' TV, against my advice and then wondered why I gave them the old 'told you so' when they started having issues with it (I had actually specifically recommended the M7000 model for their budget but they don't understand why a 2-year old model would be any different to the latest release - all they saw was an EVEN CHEAPER Hisense TV than what I had recommended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 HN were actually quite good at one stage eg their staff getting some in depth training from hitachi for instance and a tech rep even in store...they cared what their TVs looked like on the shop floor....as I found out when I bought a couple of hitachi plasmas....but that was hitachi and plasmas ...and both hitachi and plasmas all long gone now so who knows BPP used to also only demo calibrated plasmas (pioneers)...by avical themselves. and used to include a calibration in the purchase price as part of the deal... all thats long gone too now hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 Here are some before and after shots of an OLED I calibrated earlier in the week. The pre-calibration shots are from the APS picture mode and the calibration was completed within ISF Expert Dark Room picture mode. @~Spyne~ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 the whites look quite blue in the first shots dont they ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 the whites look quite blue in the first shots dont they ? Very much so al. APS mode is very blue. While there's not as much error in uncalibrated ISF Expert Mode, there's still a green bias, which is quite noticeable. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Spyne~ Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I was just about say I thought the bottom photo had a slight green tinge - nowhere near as bad as the blue hue in the top pic though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 I was just about say I thought the bottom photo had a slight green tinge - nowhere near as bad as the blue hue in the top pic though. If you're seeing a green tinge, it's either introduced by my camera, or the monitor it's being viewed on (or both).Unfortunately, that's always a potential downside of posting photos. I always struggle to find photos that do the calibration justice, as they never look as good as the real thing. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 The 'After' shot of the calibrated screen really shows how calibration can 'open up' the whole visual spectrum a TV can show. I decided to calibrate my Sony projector last night, all was going fine till I had a invasion of moths.....the little buggers decided to amass on the screen around the meter, I mean , what are the chances. I ended up giving up, they were effecting the Grey scale reading when I was trying to fine tune it.......I got from 50% to 100% looking close to spot on, and considering I have sod all Gamma adjustment on it [I disengaged all Gamma presets], it's pretty level for the most part at around 2.2 -2.3, it's the lower end of the Grey scale still needing some fixing, at 10% to 30% the Blue & Green are a bit high, [why Bias jumps with such small changes compared to Gain always throws me] I'll have to have another [hopefully Moth free] calibration session tonight...the little shits. Here's a question for you REC 709....which new TV's have 10 point gamma correction available ?, also which set's have the ability to correct the secondaries [they are Yellow / Cyan / Magenta if you are reading this and wondering what I'm talking about - usually tweaked with the Tint control if nothing else available] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Rec. 709 said: Very much so al. APS mode is very blue. While there's not as much error in uncalibrated ISF Expert Mode, there's still a green bias, which is quite noticeable. But the green, as I've been lead to believe, is the carrier of luminece [or brightness]., once you set that [the first thing you do in calibration] you leave it alone. The grey scale is adjusted in the lower half 10% to 50%, by pretty much leaving the Green alone, and just tweaking the Red & Blue Bias till White Balance is achieved at that grey scale percentage. Likewise for the 50% to 100% Grey scale range, you only adjust the Red & Blue Gain controls, to get equilibrium. If too much Green, I've found it's usually because there is too little Red, as the eye is more sensitive to Red.....but that shot above, has a very vibrant green fence, which does skewer the scene to seem more Green than it actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) "I decided to calibrate my Sony projector last night, all was going fine till I had a invasion of moths.....the little buggers decided to amass on the screen around the meter, I mean , what are the chances." hehe... that's a new one! "I ended up giving up, they were effecting the Grey scale reading when I was trying to fine tune it.......I got from 50% to 100% looking close to spot on, and considering I have sod all Gamma adjustment on it [I disengaged all Gamma presets], it's pretty level for the most part at around 2.2 -2.3, it's the lower end of the Grey scale still needing some fixing, at 10% to 30% the Blue & Green are a bit high, [why Bias jumps with such small changes compared to Gain always throws me] I'll have to have another [hopefully Moth free] calibration session tonight...the little shits." Adjusting the lower end is a bit more trickier as the controls are much more coarse than the RGB gains. Just make sure your meter is up to the task of measuring in the 10-30% range (I use both a spectro and colorimeter for this reason). "Here's a question for you REC 709....which new TV's have 10 point gamma correction available ?, also which set's have the ability to correct the secondaries [they are Yellow / Cyan / Magenta if you are reading this and wondering what I'm talking about - usually tweaked with the Tint control if nothing else available]" 10 point greyscale/gamma: Panasonic & Samsung 20 point greyscale/gamma: LG Six Point CMS: LG, Panasonic, Samsung & Sony (depending on the model) Edited February 4, 2017 by Rec. 709 Added paragraph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 "But the green, as I've been lead to believe, is the carrier of luminece [or brightness]., once you set that [the first thing you do in calibration] you leave it alone. The grey scale is adjusted in the lower half 10% to 50%, by pretty much leaving the Green alone, and just tweaking the Red & Blue Bias till White Balance is achieved at that grey scale percentage. Likewise for the 50% to 100% Grey scale range, you only adjust the Red & Blue Gain controls, to get equilibrium. If too much Green, I've found it's usually because there is too little Red, as the eye is more sensitive to Red.....but that shot above, has a very vibrant green fence, which does skewer the scene to seem more Green than it actually is." Green carries most of the luminence information. You want to avoid using it unless you need to, as it can throw off brightness and gamma. Think of it more as a last resort and be aware how it may effect the rest of the calibration. Regardless of whether you've got too much green or too little red and green, the net effect is the same... a plus green error. Green is the most visible greyscale error. While there's a small amount of error tolerance for red and blue (+/-), there's no error tolerance for + green, as even in small amounts it's visible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Thanks for the clarification, I've been still using the same method I used for calibrating old 3 tubed CRT projectors from 10+ years ago, I was just curious if a different approach might been found easier to get the wanted results, or that your ISF training might have given you different options. As you say, if too much Green usually = too little Red, [and possibly too much Blue]. I'm also glad you confirmed my findings about tweaking the Bias, and how it seems more sensitive [or Coarser , as you say] trying to get things spot on. As for my meter, well it's a Xrite i1display pro....I don't have a spectrometer as my Chromapure software doesn't [as far as I know] support one,lumagen and the likes video processors Yes. It meters well enough, just quite a bit slower at the 10%-30% range, then speeds up considerably for all other measurements 40% and up. I originally started measuring with the flip-over opaque white filter across the meters lens, as the Chromapure software asked me to do so before starting, but that was just WAY too slow, and after re-reading Curt Palmers guide[ updated one from the original 2008 version] saw that he recommended to flip it out of the way, which sped things up considerably. http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 Thanks for the clarification, I've been still using the same method I used for calibrating old 3 tubed CRT projectors from 10+ years ago, I was just curious if a different approach might been found easier to get the wanted results, or that your ISF training might have given you different options. As you say, if too much Green usually = too little Red, [and possibly too much Blue]. I'm also glad you confirmed my findings about tweaking the Bias, and how it seems more sensitive [or Coarser , as you say] trying to get things spot on. As for my meter, well it's a Xrite i1display pro....I don't have a spectrometer as my Chromapure software doesn't [as far as I know] support one,lumagen and the likes video processors Yes. It meters well enough, just quite a bit slower at the 10%-30% range, then speeds up considerably for all other measurements 40% and up. I originally started measuring with the flip-over opaque white filter across the meters lens, as the Chromapure software asked me to do so before starting, but that was just WAY too slow, and after re-reading Curt Palmers guide[ updated one from the original 2008 version] saw that he recommended to flip it out of the way, which sped things up considerably. http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322 That's correct, however there are times that you simply need to adjust green. If you need to, use a light touch and be aware that it may alter brightness and gamma (so they may need to be addressed). I find Sony's usually come up well, it just takes a bit more work. The meter your using is good, the slowness your experiencing is quite normal at lower stim. Believe it or not, this meter is quite fast at lower levels compared to other meters! :-) If it becomes to much of a major concern, check measurement smoothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Sorry for the lack of updates, the past couple of weeks has been crazy busy! Here are some shots of an Epson 9300 projector I calibrated, please forgive the angles on which they're taken. 20170202_205345.jpg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarity Calibration Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 Hehe....discovered these during a clean out of my desk- my early colorimeter's that I learnt with. The C5 (round one) was my first *good colorimeter. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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