AV Receivers - Can't Tell any difference for Music

[Cafad]

this must be some urban myth because too many audiophiles rank the amps above the speakers when it comes to importance in the ultimate SQ

That's because amps usually sit at least partially out of sight and may not require approval from She Who Must Be Obeyed to be replaced.  Speakers on the other hand would require both justification and approval.

 

Also, many of us are very attached to our speakers.

[CMC22]

Of course. There was never any doubt about this.

 

The importance of a system is roughly this:

 

* The room

* The room

* The room

* The speakers

 

Daylight

 

* All the other stuff.

I have found that the room is the biggest decider along with speakers also.

 

The last place I lived in had quite a large loungeroom, with floorboards and glass doors. To be honest it sounded like an echoed mess. I tried to dull the acoustics via heavy curtains, throw rug etc. But it was impossible, was still way to echoey.

[pete_mac]

Specs for Pioneer LX70 Amp I am using.

Continuous Power Output (DIN 1 kHz, THD 1 %, 6 Ω)

Front. . . . . . . 180 W + 180 W (LX70)

Center . . . . . .180 W

Surround . . . .180 W + 180 W

Surround back180 W + 180 W

Weight 17KG

 

1khz and 1% THD is a typically inflated marketing figure. What does the amp produce with low distortion, 20hz to 20khz with all channels simultaneously driven?

[Happy]

I have found that the room is the biggest decider along with speakers also.

 

The last place I lived in had quite a large loungeroom, with floorboards and glass doors. To be honest it sounded like an echoed mess. I tried to dull the acoustics via heavy curtains, throw rug etc. But it was impossible, was still way to echoey.

 

What you needed was calculated first reflection treatment....and agreed room is just as important

[CMC22]

What @@rawl99 said.

 

AVR's are designed for surround sound. Nowadays one can run "direct" on some, but they are built to price. AVR manufacturers have to pay licensing fees and have many channels so they skimp on amplification.

 

I had great success with my Krix speakers doing what rawl99 recommend. If possible run from AVR per outs to a poweramp or poweramps. If your AVR does not have pre out then it gets a bit harder as you need to look at integrated amps with HT bypass, or looking at options where you have 2 sets of speaker cables, one from AVR and one from say an integrated amp.

Hi Jventer,

 

Which Krix speakers are you running? What is the spec of your power amp?

 

My current AVR is pretty heavy (17KG) and has 180watts RMS per channel. I am not convinced that what i need is 'more' power. Considering that I didn't really hear any difference after upgrading from my older Sony STR-DG910 Amp which was 100 watts per channel. 

 

At normal listening volumes the distortion amount is so small that I am not convinced that adding more power will do anything unless the sound is pushed to high SPL's.

[davewantsmoore]

depends on how you measure it, no?

 

Making measurements of audio frequency signals (either electrical or air pressure) is essentially trivial and non-controversial....  so no, not really.

 

 

price point

 

Price is sometimes a very poor indicator of performance.

[CMC22]

1khz and 1% THD is a typically inflated marketing figure. What does the amp produce with low distortion, 20hz to 20khz with all channels simultaneously driven?

I am not sure couldn't find that stat

 

Rated Power Output (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.09 %, 8 Ω) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140 W+140 W (LX70)

[Happy]

Price is sometimes a very poor indicator of performance.

 

I don't really believe it that way either. But I don't wanna delude myself that that's what the most people think.

[CMC22]

Power Handling: Maximum 150 watts RMS amplifier power Sensitivity: 88dB for 2.83 volts at 1 metre

This is the Krix Esoterix Sensitivity

[davewantsmoore]

I am not convinced that what i need is 'more' power

 

Yes.   Most speakers do not need that much power, and so adding more is fairly unlikely to be directly helpful.

 

At normal listening volumes the distortion amount is so small

 

Yes.   THD and similar distortion is much less audible than most people will assume....  and are only typically audible when they are much higher.   That can happen when an amplifier approaches it's maxium output .... or sometimes when an amplifier is used to drive very small signals  (and the ratio of signal to distortion reduces)

[davewantsmoore]

I am not sure couldn't find that stat

 

The vast majority of amplifier manufacturers do not publish anything like enough information to describe their amplifiers .... most of the specs you will see published are borderline meaningless.

[betty boop]

I am not sure couldn't find that stat

 

Rated Power Output (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.09 %, 8 Ω) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140 W+140 W (LX70)

The amps max power consumption is usually biggest giveaway...soon tells you the claimed specs are somewhere between BS and marketting speak

[CMC22]

BTW my new amp is twice as heavy as the old Sony, has no more bells and whistles i mainly bought it for the increased power. I got it for a good price second hand as it is a 2008 model.

 

My point being that there is NO audible difference in sound quality at NORMAL volume when fed a quality source via pretty decent speakers. I am almost 100% certain that adding a power amp won't help at normal volume. Or at the very least, not confident.

 

p.s. A lot of people suggest a power amp. I can't afford that atm, how much would that cost? The misses would get angry. Also the old Sony AVR didn't have any pre-outs, so adding a power amp was not an option.

Edited August 2, 2016 by ChrisMac

[rocky500]

Hi Jventer,

 

Which Krix speakers are you running? What is the spec of your power amp?

 

My current AVR is pretty heavy (17KG) and has 180watts RMS per channel. I am not convinced that what i need is 'more' power. Considering that I didn't really hear any difference after upgrading from my older Sony STR-DG910 Amp which was 100 watts per channel. 

 

At normal listening volumes the distortion amount is so small that I am not convinced that adding more power will do anything unless the sound is pushed to high SPL's.

Adding a cheap Emotiva 2CH amp to my Pioneer VSX-LX71 made the most difference to normal listening levels to my music. It filled out the sound. It was a big leap in the sound at the time.

Not sure what amps are in your Pioneer but mine were Class D.

Class D seems to have got a lot better than the earlier days but the VXS-LX71 I had, it was a little disappointing for Music. Movies were great.

[betty boop]

probably not the sole decider but pls don't gimme the usual krap re it's not always about money etc etc..............or else ppl should drop the usual qualification which is 'in its price point' without which the whole audio industry will crumble and vanish

Huh not sure what you want to "gimme" since I have already given you one example of speakers where price isn't a decider, can do the same with amplifiers if needed. No price is not always a decider. If have worked in manufacturing and seen a bill of material vs list price you soon know that

[betty boop]

Adding a cheap Emotiva 2CH amp to my Pioneer VSX-LX71 made the most difference to normal listening levels to my music. It filled out the sound. It was a big leap in the sound at the time.

Not sure what amps are in your Pioneer but mine were Class D.

Class D seems to have got a lot better than the earlier days but the VXS-LX71 I had, it was a little disappointing for Music. Movies were great.

Likely fix the power stage, but not going to do much for the pre stage, analog stage, power supplies etc which are all usually compromised

[Happy]

Huh not sure what you want to "gimme" since I have already given you one example of speakers where price isn't a decider, can do the same with amplifiers if needed. No price is not always a decider. If have worked in manufacturing and seen a bill of material vs list price you soon know that

 

i don't believe that either. again im talking about the general opinion often encountered within the audio community.

[betty boop]

i don't believe that either. again im talking about the general opinion often encountered within the audio community.

Huh ????

What don't you believe exactly .... I can back up everything I have said with actual examples *sorry*

[Happy]

Huh ????

What don't you believe exactly .... I can back up everything I have said with actual examples *sorry*

 

in other words, we believe the same thing. but i wasn't talking about our individual beliefs.

[pete_mac]

 if someone didn't like the speakers you liked, it's usually because that someone didn't have the right (read expensive) amps.

 

 

In some cases that may be true, but statements like that are often used to muddy the waters regarding the possible reasons for someone not liking a pair of speakers.

 

It's easier (and gentler on their own egos) for people to single-out the other components in people's systems as being the reason for negative opinions. 

 

"Oh, you don't like the speakers that I so dearly adore? Well, you should upgrade to my fancy amp! Only then will you truly hear what these speakers are capable of"  <Never mind that we have totally different rooms...>

 

I'm definitely not suggesting that there aren't gains to be had from changing or upgrading amplifiers when you have a pair of high quality speakers to begin with - PARTICULARLY if those speakers are difficult to drive.

 

However, let's not forget that it's the SPEAKERS which enable these high-end systems to sound as good as they do. They play a far, far greater role in overall sound quality IMHO.

Edited August 2, 2016 by pete_mac

[Happy]

 

 

In some cases that may be true, but statements like that are often used to muddy the waters regarding the possible reasons for someone not liking a pair of speakers.

 

It's easier (and gentler on their own egos) for people to single-out the other components in people's systems as being the reason for negative opinions. 

 

"Oh, you don't like the speakers that I so dearly adore? Well, you should upgrade to my fancy amp! Only then will you truly hear what these speakers are capable of"  <Never mind that we have totally different rooms...>

 

I'm definitely not suggesting that there aren't gains to be had from changing or upgrading amplifiers when you have a pair of high quality speakers to begin with - PARTICULARLY if those speakers are difficult to drive.

 

However, let's not forget that it's the SPEAKERS which enable these high-end systems to sound as good as they do. They play a far, far greater role in overall sound quality IMHO.

 

 

that's exactly what i'm talking about. it's almost pointless preaching that though. people will never accept that.

[pete_mac]

that's exactly what i'm talking about. it's almost pointless preaching that though. people will never accept that.

 

It's better preaching the truth rather than allowing people to perpetuate myths and fallacies.

[rocky500]

Likely fix the power stage, but not going to do much for the pre stage, analog stage, power supplies etc which are all usually compromised

I think the Pioneer VSX-LX series were some of their better AVRs in terms of what you mentioned.

I think mine even supposedly had a 2CH pass through that bypassed the A/D converters.

 

I thought it was great at the time with an external amp and my setup. Its all relative I suppose. (as in what other components you have also)

Edited August 2, 2016 by rocky500

[betty boop]

It's better preaching the truth rather than allowing people to perpetuate myths and fallacies.

I think it's also about perspective...that if you have a "system" not performing it's a combination of things that could be letting things down. I for one wouldn't side line an amplifier....and the case of this example of this thread an AV receiver knowing full well the range of compromises they can bring.

There are a lot of myths and fallacies ... I doubt we are going to deal with them all in this thread. However it isn't in my experience or opinion that hard to work through these to determine the contributing factor or factors....

[rawl99]

Hi Jventer,

 

Which Krix speakers are you running? What is the spec of your power amp?

 

My current AVR is pretty heavy (17KG) and has 180watts RMS per channel. I am not convinced that what i need is 'more' power. Considering that I didn't really hear any difference after upgrading from my older Sony STR-DG910 Amp which was 100 watts per channel. 

 

At normal listening volumes the distortion amount is so small that I am not convinced that adding more power will do anything unless the sound is pushed to high SPL's.

Chris,

It has absolutely zero to do with increasing the power output.

It has to do with improving the quality of the amplification as per example in my first reply. I saw your post toward the end of the thread where it is at right now and totally understand the budgetary constraints of the real world.

I have a 12w valve amp that will utterly annihilate the sonics of your avr at normal listening levels.

It was compared by some folks in my absence some time back with some rather expensive 2ch amplifiers and the consensus was that my little baby was hands-down better. I am talking a $40,000 big name amplifier as one of the " competitors" plus several others.

I have a 70 w Chinese valve amp, heavily modded, that will do the same.

It is only with bigger classical pieces that the difference between these 2 amps becomes apparent.

In my example in first post we deliberately chose a power amp with same power output as the expensive avr to take that parameter off the table.

As much as a lot of folks will tell you that it is relatively trivial to measure the performance of an amplifier, when I ask the question repeatedly ( over about the last 5 years or so....at least) of those same people as to what are ALL of the parameters of an audio component ( eg amplifier) that affect and effect our listening experience and what are the optimum values of ALL of those parameters to give us the best listening experience possible; well I get a few suggestions but nothing definitive. Total distortion is just ONE of the parameters and in reality from my experiences is relatively meaningless. The composition of the distortion spectrum is much more useful but as Dave points out is very very rarely/never given.

Please also bear in mind that the power output specs on AVRs seem to be a lot more creative than on 2 ch power amplifiers.

Just as a bit of an aside, I am personally not a fan of class D amplifiers.

So my whole point of adding a power amp is not about power. It is entirely about sonic performance.

Imo the only way you are going to find out is if you get friendly with some of the guys down your neck of the woods and see if any of them would be willing to bring over a ( some?) power amp (s) for you to try out and compare. For what I think you are trying to achieve I thinks specs are going to be quite meaningless.

You will need some interconnects to hook the 2 together. If you get to try some power amps please feel free to send me a pm and I will make you some quite cost-effective interconnects that will get you scratching your head as to how they do what they do.

Cheers

Rawl