CMC22

AV Receivers - Can't Tell any difference for Music

368 posts in this topic

 Just to clarify my comments earlier regarding pure direct mode.

 

Also I do not believe an AVR is a high end 2 channel solution, and I do not use one in the chain in my 2 channel rig. I'm mainly pointing out for low to mid budget systems a near flagship AVR can be effective to keep simplicity and WAF and still achieve pretty decent perfomance for the money when set up correctly.

 

On the Pioneer LX87 this is what I have observed through the almost 4 years of ownership.

In pure direct mode, the phase control, time alignment, DSP modes (hall, music, Neo etc), video processing, tone controls (bass & treble), crossover settings are defeated. *In Direct mode the cross over settings remain*

However the channel volume settings and eq for each channel remain in effect.

I know this as while in pure direct you can still cycle through the stored memory settings of which there are 6, sampling all the eq and channel volume settings stored.

My work around was to leave one of the memories set to flat.

It is possibly also worth pointing out the LX87 handles DSD via its USB-DAC input and also via its own app via networked files.  So it would seem Pioneer put some effort into the LX receiver models.

Another observation with the Pioneer receiver is the sound quality via in analogue inputs is pretty poor. If it's digital in its all good.

 

I also have a Yamaha RX 3060 in my Theatre room.

These 2 AVRS could not be more different in their presentation.

I find the Yamaha lacks detail and separation in comparison, instead giving a more warm, rounded sound. It almost sounds a bit lifeless.

I have played enough with it to release very quickly it is pretty inadequate for 2 channel music listening, even tho it seems Yamaha have taken great lengths to ensure their Pure Direct is in fact Pure Direct.

eg: when skipping tracks, or seeking during a movie/video you can hear it implement a relay muting system instead of doing it digitally while in Pure Direct and theirs are almost no settings available, no display on the front panel etc etc and yet, I believe it's not as good.

While I was playing around the the Yamaha I connected my 803D2 directly into the front amp outputs, (I use out board amplification as I run a 7.1.4 Atmos setup) these would trigger the protection circuits in the Yamaha during heavy bass tracks eg: London Grammer's "Hey Now".

It just shows there can be big differences between brands and also, not all flagship AVR amps are created equal.

 

 

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3 hours ago, todagt said:

I find the Yamaha lacks detail and separation in comparison,

Happy to say I agree with you and may prove my ears are of a "audiophile" standard after all.:D

I went from Yamaha Adventage 2000 to Integra reciever to Cambridge Audio to Denon X3200 and now to Integra 80.3 preamp and obviously 80.3 Preamp is best overall I would rate the Yamaha least favourite.

Integra 30.5 was a great all rounder when connected to a power amp for front channels just did everything great but not draw dropping I suppose.

Cambridge 651R was excellent for music but lacking any modern features on the AV side.

Denon X3200 was the best for video related stuff like movies, TV etc but the worst for music except when used with an external dac such as Klein DAC which I used, bought the 2 channel stuff to life.

Integra 80.3 is the clear winner especially after I have now paired it with a Rotel amp, much, much better.

 

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Well I might not go that far, but everyone has their own taste.

 

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1 hour ago, powerav said:

Denon X3200 was the best for video related stuff like movies, TV etc but the worst for music

 

I have also had a Denon x3000.........Within a week I returned it

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9 hours ago, Whiterex1 said:

Well I might not go that far, but everyone has their own taste.

A Yamaha integrated amp is a completely different beast to a Yamaha AVR. 

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8 hours ago, todagt said:

 

I have also had a Denon x3000.........Within a week I returned it

 

unfortunately.... denon upmoved its range numbers a few years back so a x3000 is really what was previously a 2 series avrs.... i.e. just one up from their bargain basement budget models... like with anything these days you get what you pay for... you get basically something akin to one step up from the bottom for mainly av use....2ch is really not even a consideration i would suggest !

 

as you move up the denon range ...and the cousins in the marantz it does get better with dacs, analog stage power supply and the pre stage. a 4308 I owned some many years ago...one down from the flagship avr had something akin to 7 power supplies ! discrete dac stage...not the cheapo dac on a chip affairs many avrs get these days. and was consequently quite decent for analog and 2ch it did cost over $5k ! in australia even back then...but then you do get what you pay for...

 

 

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I'm due for an avr upgrade soon and I must say I don't know where to start looking?

But luckily I have little interest in what it does with stereo as that's taken care of by something else.

But nonetheless I can see it being a headache when the time comes .

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1 minute ago, joz said:

But nonetheless I can see it being a headache when the time comes .

New Integra's with MQA, problem solved. ;)

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Goodaye all

 

Come to the conclusion that AV unit l have is great for Movies but crap for music.

Sent the same signal to the Sony AV unit and the Marantz amp and the 35 year old Marantz kicks butt.

 

My solution is to buy a dedicated 2 channel amp for music and leave the Sony in place for movies.

l was think a old Sansui AU4900 might fit the bill and use a speaker switch.

 

The old Sony GA8ES AV unit which now resides on the decking sounds better for music than the current main AV unit a Sony DH STR540

 

AV units for movies

2 channel amps for music.

 

regards  Bruce

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26 minutes ago, sloper said:

Goodaye all

 

Come to the conclusion that AV unit l have is great for Movies but crap for music.

Sent the same signal to the Sony AV unit and the Marantz amp and the 35 year old Marantz kicks butt.

 

My solution is to buy a dedicated 2 channel amp for music and leave the Sony in place for movies.

l was think a old Sansui AU4900 might fit the bill and use a speaker switch.

 

The old Sony GA8ES AV unit which now resides on the decking sounds better for music than the current main AV unit a Sony DH STR540

 

AV units for movies

2 channel amps for music.

 

regards  Bruce

I couldn't agree more and I love my 2 channel gear, I have 3 systems and my solution for the lounge room where the family watches movies etc and a AV receiver is needed was to get a Anthem 720, now this receiver sounds great for 2 channel listening, I love sitting in there when I can and play LPs. The Anthem 720 has been a great investment for me as it keeps the family happy and I can sit in there and not cringe when I play 2 channel music 

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1 hour ago, joz said:

I'm due for an avr upgrade soon and I must say I don't know where to start looking?

But luckily I have little interest in what it does with stereo as that's taken care of by something else.

But nonetheless I can see it being a headache when the time comes .

 

joz, i know always been a yam fan and given what specifically looking for id suggest no real need to look elsewhere, something current model and within budget and you'll be right id suggest :)

 

if wanting a change and audyssey the denon/marantz models these days are very good. but again aim for the upper models.

 

in years gone by and it was for a while around $2k would buy a pretty decent avr. these days though its moved up as can imagine and around $3-4$k is more where its at for something decent. buying on special and discounted can bring dividends. buying run out can bring bargains...but i wouldnt these days as you really need to be on the cutting edge to have any hope of trying as a something central to your av rig to keep up with the constant tech race and compatibility 

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41 minutes ago, sloper said:

Goodaye all

 

Come to the conclusion that AV unit l have is great for Movies but crap for music.

Sent the same signal to the Sony AV unit and the Marantz amp and the 35 year old Marantz kicks butt.

 

My solution is to buy a dedicated 2 channel amp for music and leave the Sony in place for movies.

l was think a old Sansui AU4900 might fit the bill and use a speaker switch.

 

The old Sony GA8ES AV unit which now resides on the decking sounds better for music than the current main AV unit a Sony DH STR540

 

AV units for movies

2 channel amps for music.

 

regards  Bruce

 

an approach most people take these days. however there are units that do pretty decently for both. av processors eg from marantz both the av8801 and av8802 that replaced are actually pretty decent for 2ch you will find and sensational for movies... they ofcourse do cost a bit too....

 

and a speaker switch is not required these days if wanting to combine 2ch and av. most 2ch gear eg integrated and 2ch pre come with a ht bypass these days making the use of speaker switch redundant :)

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3 hours ago, sloper said:

Come to the conclusion that AV unit l have is great for Movies but crap for music.

 

Never ever encountered this myself, but you hear people say it all the time.

 

Quality sound reproduction is quality sound reproduction.   Doesn't matter what you're playing.   Perhaps people have low standards for audio in movies?! .... or perhaps sighted testing of stereo/audiophile components is clouding judgement.

 

Seems strange anyways.

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Probably the best advantage of a AVr or pre/pro fro music is I can listen to music in direct mode so I get exactly what the source is ie. 24/96, 24/192 etc or for a bit of fun I switch to stereo mode and bring the subwoofer into to the party.

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6 hours ago, joz said:

I'm due for an avr upgrade soon and I must say I don't know where to start looking?

But luckily I have little interest in what it does with stereo as that's taken care of by something else.

But nonetheless I can see it being a headache when the time comes .

 

Cambridge, Rotel and Anthem in the realistic price range. They don't always have the most features etc but sound better than the majors.

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7 hours ago, :) al said:

 

unfortunately.... denon upmoved its range numbers a few years back so a x3000 is really what was previously a 2 series avrs.... i.e. just one up from their bargain basement budget models... like with anything these days you get what you pay for... you get basically something akin to one step up from the bottom for mainly av use....2ch is really not even a consideration i would suggest !

 

as you move up the denon range ...and the cousins in the marantz it does get better with dacs, analog stage power supply and the pre stage. a 4308 I owned some many years ago...one down from the flagship avr had something akin to 7 power supplies ! discrete dac stage...not the cheapo dac on a chip affairs many avrs get these days. and was consequently quite decent for analog and 2ch it did cost over $5k ! in australia even back then...but then you do get what you pay for...

 

 

Could not agree more, I tried the cheaper way out and luckily for me I have a great relationship with my dealer so I was able to return it.

I now won't buy an avr unless it is either the flagship or a step down. The next move for me avr wise will most likely be Anthem or a LX89 on run out somewhere as I need to switch to 4k for the living room some time.

 

My above comments about the Yamaha also are only regarding fussy 2ch music listening. If you had not had the chance to listen to a decent 2ch pre or the other avr I have you would think it was great.

And for movies it does everything very well and the price they are going for makes them a bargain for the performance compared with the other brands right now. And it sounds great with concert discs etc and very non fatiguing.

I do listen to it via airplay for multi room listening and it is fine, but when I want to listen properly it comes out of the chain. 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Joe    good guys have a yamaha 1060 ( I think) $900ish   also at amberte check online they have an integra     dtx and dolby atmos 

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12 hours ago, TKO said:

Hi Joe    good guys have a yamaha 1060 ( I think) $900ish   also at amberte check online they have an integra     dtx and dolby atmos 

 

One day soon, not quite ready for the update.

Still toying with the idea of Atmos or not?

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9 minutes ago, joz said:

Still toying with the idea of Atmos or not?

Yeah get Atmos, even just for the new Dolby Surround on non atmos stuff is cool, watching Survivor a while ago and a crack of thunder came thru overhead speakers and scared the bejesus out of me.

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Most probably will, just need to work out the positions for the extra inceiling speakers.

More holes, the bride will love that:P

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1 minute ago, joz said:

Most probably will, just need to work out the positions for the extra unveiling speakers.

More holes, the bride will love that:P

 

joz do it ! will love it :)

 

and yes its kind of thing brings literally another dimension. 

 

ps when I made the holes in our place... 5 off them :D

 

wife walked in and asked if the aliens had landed ! hehe

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On 17/03/2017 at 10:23 PM, powerav said:

Happy to say I agree with you and may prove my ears are of a "audiophile" standard after all.:D

I went from Yamaha Adventage 2000 to Integra reciever to Cambridge Audio to Denon X3200 and now to Integra 80.3 preamp and obviously 80.3 Preamp is best overall I would rate the Yamaha least favourite.

Integra 30.5 was a great all rounder when connected to a power amp for front channels just did everything great but not draw dropping I suppose.

Cambridge 651R was excellent for music but lacking any modern features on the AV side.

Denon X3200 was the best for video related stuff like movies, TV etc but the worst for music except when used with an external dac such as Klein DAC which I used, bought the 2 channel stuff to life.

Integra 80.3 is the clear winner especially after I have now paired it with a Rotel amp, much, much better.

 

 

I still found the 80.3 pretty poor on 2ch playback, so much I gave up and set up a separate 2ch rig in a different room.

 

On 18/03/2017 at 9:02 AM, joz said:

I'm due for an avr upgrade soon and I must say I don't know where to start looking?

But luckily I have little interest in what it does with stereo as that's taken care of by something else.

But nonetheless I can see it being a headache when the time comes .

Marrantz 7702 or 8802 processor if wanting to go full on.

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1 minute ago, blybo said:

I still found the 80.3 pretty poor on 2ch playback,

I disagree and it is much better now that I am using a Rotel amp, much smoother, in fact I'm even enjoying the Audyssey on surround stuff now. 

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9 minutes ago, powerav said:

I disagree and it is much better now that I am using a Rotel amp, much smoother, in fact I'm even enjoying the Audyssey on surround stuff now. 

Sure, but you haven't compared it to a dedicated 2ch pre-amp. It is the analogue output stage where most (even top of the line) AVR/Processors can't compete with 2ch gear. The 2ch gear I'm using costs a bit more than the Integra's RRP but only has to do 1 job, and do it well, so the components are specialised whereas a AVR will always be a jack of all trades. Not saying it's not good, just not as good as it can be for 2ch.

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I have been told this a thousand times here and I know!

My next purchase will be a integrated amp with HT bypass so then I will have 7 channels.

I have heard plenty of different hiend setups at hifi stores and I am always happy to come back to my own.

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