greigw Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 Joz. Do you have a favorite? How do they differ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Hi iiftm, I don't need a phono stage and my power amp is single ended. I wouldn't consider my system clinical. What is important is low volume listening coherency - this is where the lightspeed excelled. Can a preamp help reproduce three dimensionality? GW I'd like to know what made you go for the Holton's being its DIY and what other power amps have you tried. If low level coherency is a priority like it is for me, I actually shifted to a different amplifier topology. Holton's are a great product, do you have the Toshiba Mosfets or his latest Execon Mosfets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Joz. Do you have a favorite? How do they differ?yet to try no 3I've just popped out to get a connector so I can have a good play with it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 trying in your system would be a must I reckon that pre and pwr synergy is essential. different can mate differently and in other systems with different combinations to different result again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 I'd like to know what made you go for the Holton's Anthony is local. I was able to try the power amp with all of my gear and his smartDAC1, which unfortunately isn't in production any longer. His dac was way better than the gear i was using and if it was in production i would have bought it. The amp pictured is the one i have. I don't know what mosfets they are - you can probably tell from the picture. Anthony made it so thankfully there is nothing DIY about it 😀. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Clay has kindly offered me a trial of his Klein preamp. I'm looking forward to giving it a whirl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Klein or Klyne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Klein or Klyne? Am i missing a joke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Am i missing a joke? I think he's trying to make you out as a Patsy... ...walked into that one ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Triode Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Am i missing a joke? There is a company called Klyne that makes preamps (a venerable company from the 80s that isn't much in the news anymore) and there may be a company called Klein doing the same. http://www.klyne.com/pages/system7.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Yep definatley over my head Clay Gieseler's Klein. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aab Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) That Wyred 4 Sound STP SE does look like it has really good internal and external parts. Impressive. Especially since it uses a discrete resister ladder volume control operated by relays, and seems to avoid surface mounted components. For a cheaper pre to consider, the nad c 165bee seems like a good option if you can find one used. Could be well below half your budget used. It is a current model. I just picked one up that I estimate to be about 5 years old and functionally it seems to be in perfect condition and no issues with its sound quality. I've been running it continuously since I got it and it seems really rock solid. All the controls operate without issue. Specs are good and has high input impedance (100 kΩ+ 320 pF ), low output impedance (75 Ω) which are desirable. Has subtle tone controls (defeatable) and a phono preamp that can be used with mc/mm. There was some slight oxidation/discolouration on the gold plated RCAs which is surprising but that does not seem to have been a problem with sound quality. Uses a normal pentiometer style volume control rather than stepped, though it seems to work very well. It seems to be a low gain design with unity gain at about 3 o'clock, so you get a decent amount of usable range on the volume control - very good for use with high gain power amps and/or very efficient speakers. It does use some surface mount components so that might reduce its repairability long term. Single ended only. Nice remote. Power consumption measured as about 25 watts. Headphone output. So a decent, good sounding, and very feature rich preamp that is good quality but perhaps not quite up to the parts quality of the Wyred 4 Sound STP SE. Anthony edit: I said it uses surface mount components, as that was indicated on the nad website, but now that I peer in through the top of it and look at the motherboard it looks like all discreet component mounting to me and looks very repairable. So not sure what the surface mount devices are that nad mentions. Maybe they are hidden inside the class A gain modules within their funky heatsink cases? Edited August 1, 2016 by aab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Elliott Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I think he's trying to make you out as a Patsy... ...walked into that one ... This thread's starting to ge a bit "Crazy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gieseler Audio Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 With NAD's the SMT components will be on the bottom side of the PCB & usually lots of them (out of sight in photo) No problem with SMT sound wise just a bit harder to service. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aab Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 With NAD's the SMT components will be on the bottom side of the PCB & usually lots of them (out of sight in photo) No problem with SMT sound wise just a bit harder to service. Thanks Clayton. I found some more info that indicates that might not the case but it is not authoritative: http://www.techradar.com/au/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/amplifiers/nad-c165bee-c275bee-704130/review "A notable feature of both units is their use of NAD's own 'Class A gain module', a small circuit board in a metal enclosure which replaces the more common op-amp chip. There are no less than six of these in the '165. The module is made up from surface-mounted components but all the parts on the amps' main boards are through-hole." https://web.archive.org/web/20090321093144/http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-165BEE-Stereo-Preamplifier/details "Class A gain modules combine the short signal path advantage of IC based OPAmps with the higher signal and current capacity of discrete transistors. Here SMD is used to miniaturize the circuit while the extruded aluminum heat sink keeps all parts at the optimal operating temperature for ultra low distortion." I guess that would make the gain module harder/impossible to service unless you can get replacement gain modules as a whole unit. You would be quite dependant on NAD there. The rest of the main board might be easy to service with commonly available parts. Just guessing here though - I am not an electronics technician. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Unless you're equipped to deal with SMD on a component level like Clay is, I won't go near them unless I think I can handle it with typical soldering that I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craka Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) Clay has kindly offered me a trial of his Klein preamp. I'm looking forward to giving it a whirl.Hi Greig,Hows the klein shaping up.Im considering one myself.Any update? Edited August 17, 2016 by craka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 Hi craka. It's a good value for money pre. It's very detailed. But based on what's been said about his dac/pre I decided to wait for reviews of it before purchasing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craka Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Ok thanks for the quick reply.I expected it would be detailed.I have a klein se dac and really like it.Ive a Cayin A88T that Im thinking about putting a pre in front of.How much difference a pre will make is the question.SS or tube pre ,more reading. Ill be keen to see the some reviews on the dac/pre aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 Quick update. I picked up a Wyred 4 Sound STP SE from the classifieds. Does exactly what i wanted. Very happy with the sonic improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 10 minutes ago, greigw said: Quick update. I picked up a Wyred 4 Sound STP SE from the classifieds. Does exactly what i wanted. Very happy with the sonic improvement. Thats awesome, @greigw didn't think it would disappoint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Quote On ?7?/?28?/?2016 at 8:07 PM, greigw said: With a budget of about $1500 new or secondhand, I have been reading about: Klein preamp Wyred 4 Sound STP SE Teddy Pardo PR1 What others should i consider? My other components are Holton Audio made 100W Dual Mono (33kohm in), Starting Point System DAC3 w/Bel Canto ulink and Revel M22 speakers. I'm currently leaning towards the Klein but it's a bit of an unknown. The W4S has great reviews but i'm not so sure the passive design will work well with my poweramp (a lightspeed attenuator didn't). The Teddy looks okay too. Cheers! 33kohm amp would have been fine if the dac's output was buffered. Forget about any type of passive with this dac, you want a high gain preamp with the highest input impedance you can find >68kohm. As this is what the output of that Starting Point Dac has as an output stage, which will not be very strong. Your dac's output rca's is driven from the dac chips output pin, that's been smothered by the passive I/V resistor to boot with no buffer after it opamp or otherwise. . And keep the interconnects as short as possible to the preamp from the dac, 1/2mt if possible. "Starting point Dac 3 TDA1543 16-bit DAC - the original from Philips® Passive I/V conversion No Op-Amp - direct output" Cheers George Edited November 9, 2016 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greigw Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 Thanks George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 BTW Greig, I would persevere and try a different more mainstream dac if possible, with a output buffer, as 99.9% of them have just because of this reason. And not do a bandaid fix for a problem that's elsewhere. As you have that absents of an output stage in your dac, and that is a bottle neck for compatibility problems for future components to mate with. You did get a good sound before. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/lightspeed-attenuator-best-preamp-ever/post?postid=1332156#1332156 Cheers George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) If I can elaborate a little more, with pictures. 1st pic This is your Starting Point Dac, no buffer, resistor I/V, capacitor coupled. 2nd Pic is the schematic of what it should be, with buffer as per Philips and most that use it. 3rd Pic is schematic of what you have. Cheers George Edited November 9, 2016 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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