Basshorn for Avant Garde Trio

[JCR33]

I have been thinking about upgrading my Avant Garde Trio but the idea of buying a few sets of BASSHORNS is not too great! From memory, a pair of Avant Garde Basshorns is about the same price as the Trio itself.

When I saw this site, professional subs, not sure if they will work. I think on paper, as long as the numbers are right, the appearance can be compromised...




http://www.bassmaxx.com/products/pdfs/bzero.pdf








or something like this and I can also drink to it...

[Aslan]

Yes, but where will you fit them in? The room is a little bit crowded already I suspect .

Maybe we could suspend them from the ceiling

[Bear72]

Yes, but where will you fit them in? The room is a little bit crowded already I suspect .

Maybe we could suspend them from the ceiling

What about something like those "Cellarhorns" the wacko in Italy made


Just send the family away for the weekend and say N O T H I N G

[A9X]

Two words: Tapped Horn. Tom Danley's original design is the DTS20; second was the bDEAP. They are easy for a cabinet maker to make and plenty of Pro drivers work a treat in them. My 4 will be ready in a month or so (depending on work). Less floor area than a traditional horn.

Otherwise, have some LABhorns or Pi12's made. I had corner loaded LABs in the previous abode and they went low and deep and kept up with the fullrange front horn system. I also got to speak with Constabulary regularly.

[kye]

To get these in the lounge without being noticed, follow this plan:

1) Build a table the same size as the sub and install it in the room where the sub will be
2) When / if there is a protest about the look of the table, get a large section of speaker grill cloth in a room neutral colour and throw it over the top of the table, turning it into a large cube. Make sure the cloth goes all the way to the floor.
3) Wait a little while until it is no longer an issue
4) When everyone is out, swap the table for the sub. Make sure it is in the same place exactly and that the cloth has exactly the same shape as it did when covering the table.
5) For a few weeks only use the sub up loud when no-one is around
6) Tell everyone you did something cool to the hifi to give it more bass, but don't elaborate on what - if people aren't interested in hearing about the hifi, say lots of stuff (they will ignore it, but this is good)
7) Wait a while, enjoying the sub whenever you want to
8) Later on you can change the colour of the cloth or do something that will give the game away - when the sub is revealed say that it's been there for months and claim you mentioned it and refer to when you told everyone about the hifi upgrade

[Young Skywalker]

Hi Jack,

If I was in your shoes I would seriously consider enlisting the services of SGR Audio to build an all-analog active line level crossover and dedicated bass amplifier to drive a pair of open baffle bass towers (think four 10" or 12" drivers per side). This should create a nice blend (especially speed, open sound, etc) with your three way horns (you can still use the passive crossover in them).

Given that your room is large (it would have to be for the Trios to not visually dominate it) I feel that you could easily accomodate an open baffle design for the bass. Your main valve amp used to drive the passive crossover Trios would have a much easier time of it with frequencies below say 200 Hz filtered out.

If you are feeling really ambitious your could chase a 4-way active crossover and run each of the Trio horns with its own dedicated SET amplifier and blend in the open baffle bass towers as above. This is what I would do personally, if money was no object.

Conceptually I am not a huge fan of horn-loaded bass (I mean real bass not midbass) and neither is the infamous Romy the Cat if you follow his self-worshipping, albeit interesting, website.

Another option would be sealed bass towers with several smaller drivers (say eight 8" drivers) but these may be trickier, but certainly not impossible, to integrate with the muti-way horns.

Some would advocate a digital crossover like the Deqx for the duties I have described which is fine if your listen exclusively to digital sources. Can't say I am completely sold on the digital eq aspect for room correction though after reading Richard Hardesty's take on things at the Audio Perfectionist Journal.

Aaron

[terry j]

thanks aaron, have been trying to remember what the name of the mag was I found yonks ago, you just mentioned it.

BTW, is the article you mention one of the free downloads or one you have bought?

Feel free to get a demo for yourself (ie digital room correction), a lot easier to make your own mind up, whichever way it goes.

[Young Skywalker]

I should not have included the referene to the digital versus analog crossover in my suggestion to Jack since it takes this thread off topic. My apologies for that. Just to quickly tie up that loose end....

Feel free to get a demo for yourself (ie digital room correction), a lot easier to make your own mind up, whichever way it goes.

Hi Terry,

I agree, a demo is the only way to know for sure. Everyone on the internet has an opinion which unfortunately diminishes the value of the information until it can be verified first hand.

I purchased a couple of the Audio Perfectionist Journals after reading the free samples. I agree with some of the things he says and disagree or am ambivalent with respect to some of his other opinions and theories. The thing that did appeal to me is the lack of advertising although he does maintain friendships with luminaries from several high end audio manufacturers (unavoidable when you founded one of the first high end retail establishments in the US) and not surprisingly uses their gear in his reference system, albeit after paying for them with his own money.

Aaron

[terry j]

I have read that section on equalization before.

gotta say I do not agree with his conclusions at all,and I feel safe in saying anyone I've ever demoed it to would also agree with me.

would everyone in the future?? can't say.

still, perhaps a topic for it's own thread, or at least a real life test of the concept, all done blind of course!

[andythiing]

What about retracable subs that sink beneath the floor when not in use - turn your amp on and the automaticaly rise to the occaision - you know a bit like when you where young!

[proftournesol]

hey Jack, I'm disappointed! Don't f**k around with mere horns when you can get the royal flush! http://www.rotarywoofer.com/
High WAF as it's invisible when complete

[JCR33]

Guys,

Just got home after attending a X'mas party in the city. Pouring rain all day and traffic was like hell everywhere. Took me an hour from Pyrmont to The Rocks. Sitting opposite the Opera House but could not get outside, what a waste!

I am seriously thinking of getting a serious sub to replace my baby ones that come from Avant Garde.

Some of your suggestions are really great, I need some time to go through them though. Proftournesol, your link is really weird, a fan as a sub? Need to get my glasses to read the fine print, look interesting and that could work with my raised floor too.

[proftournesol]

apparently goes all the way down to 0 Hz

[Aslan]

Jack, I just remembered you have lots of space under your floor. Perhaps there is the chance to get creative.

[A9X]

Jack, I just remembered you have lots of space under your floor. Perhaps there is the chance to get creative.

Infinite Baffle then. A couple of manifolds and a bunch of AE IB15 drivers.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi

Say two of these, with 8 IB15/side and a couple of meaty amps to drive them.
http://home.comcast.net/~klone-audio/page13-12Shiva1.html

If I could do IB, I would. When I move home, I may add a small IB to the TH and sealed units for distributed bass a la Geddes/Welti.

[JCR33]

Read through many pages on the rotary sub, very clever and sounds like a real deal. Tuck under the floor and takes up no floor space except a small square opening.

Need more thinking and understanding on how it will work with all the electronics and the main speakers I have.

Just wondering, if I had one of this, will it be more efficient?

[proftournesol]

that will certainly do bass well, might have some problem with low volume detail though

[terry j]

what's the purpose here jack?

rotary sub for example, well it seems it's whole reason for existance is the 'if you want to hear (feel) the 5 hz note of the monster', ie it's all HT stuff.

I personally have the same reaction to IBs, great if you want to go super low, but seems really only for ht (?? that would no doubt be argues with strongly)

in any case, and this is certainly only my thoughts, for music I find it actually horrible and very annoying to have the system reproduce anything under twenty hz, in fact I'm quite happy only going to thirty hz.

To me, there is nothing musical at all being shaken in your seat. I can see it being applicable/acceptable for movies...for sure I bet when the bomb goes off next door in real life you WOULD be shaken!, but for music??

IMHO, YMMV etc etc etc

I'd certainly do a a bit of research on the real world results of the rotary woofer,may be good for sub ten hz but whatabout for the frequencies in music where it counts? and if you contemplate IBs then there are great guys on sna who would love to let you audition them, and you can get an idea for yourself.

[JCR33]

what's the purpose here jack?

rotary sub for example, well it seems it's whole reason for existance is the 'if you want to hear (feel) the 5 hz note of the monster', ie it's all HT stuff.

I personally have the same reaction to IBs, great if you want to go super low, but seems really only for ht (?? that would no doubt be argues with strongly)

in any case, and this is certainly only my thoughts, for music I find it actually horrible and very annoying to have the system reproduce anything under twenty hz, in fact I'm quite happy only going to thirty hz.

To me, there is nothing musical at all being shaken in your seat. I can see it being applicable/acceptable for movies...for sure I bet when the bomb goes off next door in real life you WOULD be shaken!, but for music??

IMHO, YMMV etc etc etc

I'd certainly do a a bit of research on the real world results of the rotary woofer,may be good for sub ten hz but whatabout for the frequencies in music where it counts? and if you contemplate IBs then there are great guys on sna who would love to let you audition them, and you can get an idea for yourself.

TJ,

I would like to have the opportunity to audition the IBs as I have never experienced it before.

What you said is also at the back of my little mind that if the spinning thing is actually an overkill for my mostly music listening purpose.

What I like about the rotary sub is the simplicity of it, having a chamber next to or under your music room. I also read somewhere that for pure music listening purpose, the volume can be set lower...

There is a review by IAR on the rotary sub which is long and thorough, over 10 pages of technical assessment and comparison to conventional subs. Towards the end of the review, it said something about the effect and changes on music, if you have time you can read the full review on

http://www.iar-80.com/page142.html

This is just a brief abstract on the effect with music...

D. Music

Again, we'll start with the most obvious, expected sonic differences, and work toward the unexpected, which actually turn out to be of even greater sonic benefit, to even more of your music...

D.1. Pipe Organ

First out of the gate was of course a pipe organ recording, the famous Vikings track from the Reference Recordings' CD Pomp and Pipes. Organ notes are similar to sine waves, so they can elicit and probe different bass performance aspects than transient signals do (our further sonic tests below employ transients). Some organ pipe notes on this track are very low in frequency and very high in bass energy. Through just the state-of-the-art conventional subwoofers, these organ notes sounded quite powerful and impressive, as good as we've ever heard them from conventional subwoofers. But, with the TRW added, these same organ notes took on whole new qualities and dimensions. Yes, these notes went even deeper and were even more powerful with the TRW, by a dramatic margin. But, even more impressively, rather than merely hearing the bass and slightly feeling the bass, as happened with the conventional subwoofers, with the TRW added your whole body shook with the bass, as though the organ pipe were vibrating the very planet and the entire atmosphere...


D.2. Plucked String Bass

...with the TRW added to the system, bass transient response took on a whole new character on these plucked bass notes, a character that was obviously far truer to the actual sound of live plucked bass, with vastly better tightness, definition, and absence of artifacts like overhang and boom. Suddenly the plucked bass sounded real and live, not like an artificial hi-fi system...

D.3. Piano

...The third musical test employed piano notes with dynamic attack...Some of the sonic benefits, realized by the TRW on these midrange and treble piano notes, were quite unexpected. Each note became much more coherent, much better focused in time, with all parts of the note and all parts of the spectrum sounding together. And, with all parts of each note's energy cohering in time and being focused at the same time, the piano's dynamic range also increased dramatically, with a much higher crest factor...

D.4. High Frequency Violin Pluck

Continuing to move up the frequency spectrum...

...The TRW did indeed improve the sound of these high frequency violin plucks, and everyone in the room heard these improvements. The most obvious sonic improvement was that the pluck became much more solid tactile, and believable. This was probably because the low bass energy of the initial transient acquired with the TRW the correct waveform, to become the correct pedestal for the high frequency portion of the overall waveform, so it thereby made the overall waveform perceivably more accurate, and more coherent and focused. The high frequency violin pluck with the TRW sounded much more like a real violin pluck, on a solid, tactile, three dimensional instrument you could reach out and touch, while without the TRW it sounded like a typical artificial hi-fi reproduction, with a more phantom-like, less palpable existence.

[Drizt]

If you get a chance to listen to an IB setup id take it I loved it for both music and HT when I heard it at Norpus' place. I don't think he used the IB for HIFI anymore as his SGR Octagons go flat below 20Hz.

I'm of a different opinion to terry j in that I think flat to 20Hz at least is desirable. The best systems I have heard have all been flat to 20Hz or lower. Systems that haven't gone as low always leave that little something missing with my type of music. Nitin Sawhney's music has lots and lots of subterranean bass. Music like that demans 20Hz or even lower.

[terry j]

Hmmm, rotary subwoofer. about $25k (US I presume)

anyway, as I suspected, it is really only for HT use.

recommended x-over point, 20 hz@18db slope. max frequency 30 hz.

Yeah, that should help the bass of the system!

reckon you'd be better concentrating from 20 and higher.

[JCR33]

Hmmm, rotary subwoofer. about $25k (US I presume)

anyway, as I suspected, it is really only for HT use.

recommended x-over point, 20 hz@18db slope. max frequency 30 hz.

Yeah, that should help the bass of the system!

reckon you'd be better concentrating from 20 and higher.

TJ,

OK, let's do a bit of research on both.

What if, as you suggested, I concentrate on 20 and above, where and how should I start, since I have a pair of subs already?

A bit of background on Trio from the website:

The TRIO is a 3-way hornspeaker system, equipped with additional active subwoofer systems for the bass range below 100 hz. Its hybrid concept with self-powered subwoofers and the really outstanding sensitivity (109 dB/W/m) makes it easy to drive with any amplifier and delivers ultimate dynamics and resolution.

[terry j]

well, first off, do you actually know what you have in the room? hey, for all I know you already get comfortably to 20 (or thirty) and so the fan is exactly the ticket for you!

should have a look at the website I guess, the 'extra' subs you mentioned from the manufacturer are in addition to the above quote? no worries, out of curiosity I'll have a look later.

As I said above, what is the purpose?? Is it because you feel you don't have sufficient bass extension already? (a variant of the question do you know what you have now)

Is it because at certain vols the 'subs' you have distort/struggle/clip?

Just for something to do with your system??

BTW I hope I don't come across as a sub expert, I'm not. Ultimately there are not a lot of choices really, (sealed vs ported vs bandpass vs vs vs), but as part of any research (either into commercial subs or getting some built for a purpose) you should know what the goals are that the sub needs to satisfy, so back to my original question I guess.

Inany case, with a top end system like yours you have much more to consider than most, I mean you don't just buy a sub with a jaycar plate amp, fiddle a bit with the x-over frequency knob, flick either normal or reverse phase, twiddle the vol button and bobs your uncle.

Are you going to hi pass your mains? If so then how do you do that cleanly (ie qulity wise to the standard of the rest of the system), how about distributed subs? Again, how do you control them etc, power them with which amps (doubt I'd be using a plate amp as I say)

The WHAT I'm not qualified to say, just that I feel you need to know where and why you're headed, that's all.

[Aslan]

Terry, can I suggest that the first option may be to actually measure Jacks current in room FR with your "Trolley of Enlightenment", and then JC can develop plan from there.

Of course this would mean that You and Lindy would have to invite yourselves down for a BBQ whilst you were at it

[Young Skywalker]

Hi Jack,

I suspect the problem with most speaker systems is not a lack of ultimate extension in room. As Terry pointed out a flat 30 Hz is usually enough for a convincing illusion of "most" acoustic music (big pipe organs excluded). Rather I suspect the real problem lies in the transition from mid bass to midrange. A lack of energy and/or integration in this region seems to be responsible for the gaping chasm between most hi-fi systems and live music (dynamics notwithstanding). I feel that this region can greatly influence our perception of the midrange.

For this reason I suggested line level active filtering of the low music content from your passive crossover Trio horns and feeding it to dedicated bass speakers which can not only give you 20-30 Hz in room but also vanishingly low distortion up to 200-350 Hz where your mid bass horn is likely most comfortable. It is this transition that will determine success or failure of the exercise I feel and one possible weakness that has faced all Avantgarde Acoustics speakers (from the Uno up anyway). I would sell the stock Avantgarde bass sections on Audiogon. If I recall correctly if you head over to the Avantgarde Acoustics website you can see one or two Trio owner's who have commissioned custom bass solutions.

The twin 10" Lorantz drivers in the SGR Audio sealed boxes (featured in the Octagon and MT3A - one of the main reasons for my own speaker choice) are capable of 16 Hz to 350 Hz (although these are commonly run up to 200 Hz these days) with less intermodulation distortion than most amplifiers. How these behave in room is for the end user to discover and where room treatments come into play. I will be investigating some bass traps (possibly from Real Traps) in my own room if I can get them past the style police.

Perhaps you should come over for a listen in the New Year when I have the speakers dialled in and you can decide if the bass capabilities are something you might like to add to your Trio horns.

Aaron