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For DAC users without a turntable Ive found that this fantastic company has the "ECT" for us. Its incredible. Its even scientific as they explain it balances close proximity electromagnetic fields even from the outside of the case!  Wow.

 

ECT – Electronic Circuit Transducer

An exciting evolution of the ever expanding UEF Technology engineered to balance close proximity electromagnetic fields in electronic circuits. When placed inside your components ECT's or Electronic Circuit Transducers transform ordinary electronics to the extraordinary, while elevating state-of-the-art components to unprecedented levels of refinement.

ext001-500.jpg

 

 
ect-inside777.jpg

 
ect-outside777.jpg

"...attaching the ECT to the outside of the CD player and linestage is very positive! As you mentioned, there is another level of natural harmonic clarity and musical presence without any sense of brightness or glare. Once I place them adjacent to the tubes, I can only imagine the results!"

 

 

To be fair.

 

The engineer in me is always looking for 'validation', or objective proof, if you like.

 

So, the engineer in me asks the question, if I was to make these, how could I validate, that they do what is suggested?

 

Based on the info above, a lux or magnetic image would do that.

 

So, the manufacturer should be able to provide a 'before & after'  magnetic image to prove it works.

 

Does that exist? Or some other form of objective proof, other than "imagined results" or "trust your ears".

 

 

post-104512-0-98246200-1434947155_thumb.

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To be fair.

 

The engineer in me is always looking for 'validation', or objective proof, if you like.

 

So, the engineer in me asks the question, if I was to make these, how could I validate, that they do what is suggested?

 

Based on the info above, a lux or magnetic image would do that.

 

So, the manufacturer should be able to provide a 'before & after'  magnetic image to prove it works.

 

Does that exist? Or some other form of objective proof, other than "imagined results" or "trust your ears".

 

 

 

 

 

I sent a message to SR last week, requesting information on how their devices work. No reply so far, but I live in hope. 

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Guest myrantz

Does that exist? Or some other form of objective proof, other than "imagined results" or "trust your ears".

Sure, why not? Seems the retailer offers a 30 day money back guarantee (see post before yours). Depending on the fine print involved you get to play with that to your engineer's hearts content. :)

Again I have no idea why people insist measuring the system and not measuring the user (and no I don't mean blind tests or placebo).

Engineers seem to think a change in the system will result in the change in the user as if the relation is direct and predictable... That to me is flawed logic but hey who am I to argue with proof inquisitive engineers?

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Guest myrantz

I sent a message to SR last week, requesting information on how their devices work. No reply so far, but I live in hope.

Ah, now that's a positive forward out of the endless speculation.. Hopefully he'd send you something to review soon.. :)
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Sure, why not? Seems the retailer offers a 30 day money back guarantee (see post before yours). Depending on the fine print involved you get to play with that to your engineer's hearts content. :)

As you say, depending on the details, this seems like a very fair approach.

Again I have no idea why people insist measuring the system and not measuring the user (and no I don't mean blind tests or placebo).

Since EVERYTHING that can be audibly detected, can be measured, it makes perfect sense to measure. IT would help if SR described the physics behind the operation of the device, so an appropriate test can be devised.

Engineers seem to think a change in the system will result in the change in the user as if the relation is direct and predictable...

System changes can result in unpredictable changes in listeners' responses.

That to me is flawed logic but hey who am I to argue with proof inquisitive engineers?

The point of a blind trial to to see if a particular change results in a statistically noticeable difference to the listener. It is an almost ideal test, which can encompass a large range of measurements, quickly and easily.

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There is no physics behind the ECT, PHT, ABC, HOT, 123 from SR. Ted Denney is an absolute loon I will say it again. Loons like him don't last long in the audiophile community, many snake oil component/cable manufacturers that fall into the same group as SR have all but disappeared, a lot of them from the late 70's, 90's and early 2000-mid 2000's. These loons thrive on gullible consumers that want to believe such crap can make a difference. Fine you can take your big fat wallet and buy them for your own setup but don't praise bs propaganda online saying it makes a difference. 

Edited by DefQon
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Guest Eggcup The Daft

@@Synergistic AU

 

For the benefit of our disbelievers and sceptics (you can certainly include me in the latter) - how about some facts behind the lovely language?

 

For any ONE of the products mentioned in this thread, give us:

1) A plausible and testable explanation of how it works: or

2) Results of double blind/ABX testing in an environment not set up by Synergistic Research itself, a linked body or a reseller, the test conducted by a third party, that can be verified and repeated by other testers: or

3) Measurements proving a difference in sound in the listening position while only using that one product in the system and environment.

 

I think that that list includes options that don't involve exposing trade secrets or such.

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Guest myrantz

Since EVERYTHING that can be audibly detected, can be measured, it makes perfect sense to measure.

Only if you have the means to analyse properly what the measurements are.

 

If you just measure something without applying that back to the listener, you're not going to make perfect sense.. Takes this example: Linky. By looking at mere measurements one would prove A has a lower pitch. But it's actually B that sounds lower and we now know why. 

Analysis of measurements is far more complicated than just looking at pretty graphs and pictures. If you want to prove something, you have to map a measured difference in the system to a measured difference in the user. And this must be repeatable. If you can't, then it's no better than reading tea leaves from a teacup randomly making up things as it goes along.

 

Understand the role of a stereo system is to trick the brain into thinking something unreal is something real. The human brain is capable of linking hundreds if not thousands of variables and analyse them in the blink of an eye. It is fast, but very error prone..

When you measure, you're measuring 2-5 variables tops. And worse if you're only measuring test tones in a controlled environment. It is likely to be repeatable, but not very effective. Good luck trying to measure everything that can be audibly detected.

If your claim is true that means audio nirvana can't be too far away (or it's already here). 

 

IT would help if SR described the physics behind the operation of the device, so an appropriate test can be devised.

How I wish every marketing department out there pushing their warez will have their ads verified and signed off by a person with a qualified physics degree.. I would love to see that day where Science is really applied in day to day. 

 

System changes can result in unpredictable changes in listeners' responses.

So.... Doesn't it kindda imply measuring system change is irrelevant then? :P

 

The point of a blind trial to to see if a particular change results in a statistically noticeable difference to the listener. It is an almost ideal test, which can encompass a large range of measurements, quickly and easily.

Well, here's a prime candidate to put that to the test... Here's hoping you'd do it. It may not seem that way, but I hold you to a lot of respect :D.. Your opinion will carry more weight if you do so.. Sure you may insist your experience alone should be enough for me (and anybody) to just take it at your word.. But we just have to look at the current state of politics in Australia to know sometimes words alone are hollow.

 

It is one thing to just post a random ebay entry and say it is snake oil, and another to actually get hold of a sample and systematically explain it to everybody where it is so (even on products as obvious as this). 

 

I don't want anything to review, as my opinions are already biased. I just want to understand the physics behind the operation of the devices.

My biased against the RR-77 is clear, and yet I can be a strong defender of it.. Just because you're biased doesn't automatically mean you'd give a negative opinion. Life is never such clear cut black and white.

If you want to understand the physics, nothing is better than to physically get hold of the product and see it in action. And that will definitely kill the snail oil (at least for me).. Until then, it's free publicity all round.

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Guest Eggcup The Daft

I would like to see the devices actually pulled apart to see inside

For all we know it's just a magnet with a coloured ball stuck to it

If it's a very carefully designed magnet and coloured ball, and does what it says, no problem, and good on whoever worked out that effect.

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td has been in the business more than 20 years. he is no fly-by-nighter.

i haven't tried his latest devices, but have tried many of his cables and conditioners and they work very well imo.

i'm not really into room tuning at all, just using carpet, rug, and curtains.

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Guest Eggcup The Daft

Only if you have the means to analyse properly what the measurements are.

 

If you just measure something without applying that back to the listener, you're not going to make perfect sense.. Takes this example: Linky. By looking at mere measurements one would prove A has a lower pitch. But it's actually B that sounds lower and we now know why. 

Analysis of measurements is far more complicated than just looking at pretty graphs and pictures. If you want to prove something, you have to map a measured difference in the system to a measured difference in the user. And this must be repeatable. If you can't, then it's no better than reading tea leaves from a teacup randomly making up things as it goes along.

 

Understand the role of a stereo system is to trick the brain into thinking something unreal is something real. The human brain is capable of linking hundreds if not thousands of variables and analyse them in the blink of an eye. It is fast, but very error prone..

When you measure, you're measuring 2-5 variables tops. And worse if you're only measuring test tones in a controlled environment. It is likely to be repeatable, but not very effective. Good luck trying to measure everything that can be audibly detected.

You're making a logical error here and at the same time raising a number of valid points.

 

The logical error is assuming that the measuring equipment used will have the same faults as the human ear. If there is a change in what comes out of the speakers, it can be measured.

 

Every time a recording is made, it is actually a measurement of the sounds made by the performers and in the environment. All we are doing when we play back the recording, is translating those measurements back into the new environment. So don't try to sell me the idea that the measurement can't be made.

 

What a particular change means for a particular listener, that's a different and entirely valid point. But the change can be measured.

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Guest myrantz

td has been in the business more than 20 years. he is no fly-by-nighter.

i haven't tried his latest devices, but have tried many of his cables and conditioners and they work very well imo.

i'm not really into room tuning at all, just using carpet, rug, and curtains.

Found this article: LInky.. Article dated since 1995 so in a way more than 20 years backs you up. Wonder if there's any audio company with a sound engineering base that can't last 20 years (would be ironic if there's one).

 

FWIW I also googled Fremer's quote and he did probably said those words in the e-bay page (in Stereophile magzine).. This is actually one of the recommended products.. :popcorn:  

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Seems the retailer offers a 30 day money back guarantee (see post before yours). Depending on the fine print involved you get to play with that to your engineer's hearts content. :)

 

I don't think a 30 day money back guarantee equals objective proof. I don't want to "play" with it. I want to have a level of confidence that what it is purported to do has been objectively validated.

 

 

Engineers seem to think a change in the system will result in the change in the user as if the relation is direct and predictable...

If you think I am one of these engineers, you are mistaken.

 

 

...but hey who am I to argue with proof inquisitive engineers?

Why is search for "proof" a problem?

 

As a general concept, I have to be able to validate as part of my profession.

I can't go around saying "it's the vibe of the thing" and expect people to take me seriously.

Edited by Gee Emm
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Guest myrantz

You're making a logical error here and at the same time raising a number of valid points.

 

The logical error is assuming that the measuring equipment used will have the same faults as the human ear. If there is a change in what comes out of the speakers, it can be measured.

It can be measured because you and ZB said so? The same way we shouldn't buy the product because the OP said so? Or the same way we should buy the product because Fremer said so?

 

Let's assume your flawed logic for a second. If you measured a change in the speakers, what does that mean? That's the deeper analysis part I was referring to.. You reckon it's so easy? Took some boffins ages to pin point mystery radio burst comes microwave ovens. 

To this day despite being to measure a lot of things and with a crapola of data, we still have NFI where MH-370 is.

 

Every time a recording is made, it is actually a measurement of the sounds made by the performers and in the environment. All we are doing when we play back the recording, is translating those measurements back into the new environment. So don't try to sell me the idea that the measurement can't be made.

 

What a particular change means for a particular listener, that's a different and entirely valid point. But the change can be measured.

I am saying measurements takes about 2-5 variables max.. In your example, assuming it's stereo, you have amplitude and relative time.  And somehow that (2 variables x 2) equates to the sounds made by the performers and the environment. Not sure I can sell an idea if you don't even know what the idea is..

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Guest myrantz

I don't think a 30 day money back guarantee equals objective proof. I don't want to "play" with it. I want to have a level of confidence that what it is purported to do has been objectively validated.

Ah, so like me, you're just here debating about something we don't own? Got'ya. 

If you think I am one of these engineers, you are mistaken.

If you say so. 

Why is search for "proof" a problem?

The problem is demand for proof without any iota of interest in the product... This is a snake oil bashing thread. Not a proofing thread.

As a general concept, I have to be able to validate as part of my profession.

I can't go around saying "it's the vibe of the thing" and expect people to take me seriously.

It seems I'm the only person who sees the irony of all this.. :D :D
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Ah, so like me, you're just here debating about something we don't own? Got'ya. 

If you say so. 

The problem is demand for proof without any iota of interest in the product... This is a snake oil bashing thread. Not a proofing thread.

It seems I'm the only person who sees the irony of all this.. :D :D

 

I was trying to have a discussion with you about it.

 

It seems to me, you just want an argument.

I'm not arguing with you.

 

Go and press someone elses' buttons.

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If it's a very carefully designed magnet and coloured ball, and does what it says, no problem, and good on whoever worked out that effect.

Lest play with this scenario

Yay it works - then why charge $200 for something that costs 20 cents

That is the snake oil part of the equation

This selling technique has been going on for yonks

Remember that Tea weight loss product

Once the schemers become drunk with money they will milk it for all its worth and when it fizzles out they come back over and over again with new schemes or rehashed old ones

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Lest play with this scenario

Yay it works - then why charge $200 for something that costs 20 cents

That is the snake oil part of the equation

This selling technique has been going on for yonks

Remember that Tea weight loss product

Once the schemers become drunk with money they will milk it for all its worth and when it fizzles out they come back over and over again with new schemes or rehashed old ones

No comment on the merits or otherwise of these "audio improvement" products because it is a "No Win" situation.

But here is a link to Australia's most prolific Con Man who has sold all manner of Miracle Tea concoctions (weight loss, cholesterol reducing, cancer curing,stop smoking, etc). It is just repackaged tea.

He keeps doing it over and over and has been jailed in Australia. The USA and the UK.

Because there are an endless supply of suckers(several were born while I was writing this) he has continued to operate during his various stints in jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Foster

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Guest Eggcup The Daft

Lest play with this scenario

Yay it works - then why charge $200 for something that costs 20 cents

That is the snake oil part of the equation

This selling technique has been going on for yonks

Remember that Tea weight loss product

Once the schemers become drunk with money they will milk it for all its worth and when it fizzles out they come back over and over again with new schemes or rehashed old ones

First of all, it may not cost 20 cents to make.

Secondly, like all products, there is an intangible element of design and so on. If the market is prepared to pay $199.80 for that, fair enough. You paid something for the intangible part of all of the products listed in your sig, even if it wasn't 99%+.

 

The weight loss tea? Well, people did the equivalent of the 30 day trial, and even though it didn't work, reported positive results.  That's why we need more than a 30 day trial to know if an "unusual" product is the real deal or not.

 

It can be measured because you and ZB said so? The same way we shouldn't buy the product because the OP said so? Or the same way we should buy the product because Fremer said so?

 

Let's assume your flawed logic for a second. If you measured a change in the speakers, what does that mean? That's the deeper analysis part I was referring to.. You reckon it's so easy? Took some boffins ages to pin point mystery radio burst comes microwave ovens. 

To this day despite being to measure a lot of things and with a crapola of data, we still have NFI where MH-370 is.

 

I am saying measurements takes about 2-5 variables max.. In your example, assuming it's stereo, you have amplitude and relative time.  And somehow that (2 variables x 2) equates to the sounds made by the performers and the environment. Not sure I can sell an idea if you don't even know what the idea is..

 

please, please, please, PLEASE, tell me what this change can be that can't be measured. What causes changes and what we can deduce from the changes made are not relevant to my point. 

 

I'm happy to give ground to you on understanding cause and effect.

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Guest myrantz

please, please, please, PLEASE, tell me what this change can be that can't be measured.

Let's see:

Perceptual directionality of a noise from a recording. Amused to Death audio-CD, at the start of track #1. On a good system, you'd be able to hear a dog barking as if it's outside the listening room (behind you)... It sounded so real and so lifelike... On lessor systems, it's a meh.. How do you measure and quantify that.

 

Once you've done that... Let's play various copies of Girl Of Ipanena from Stan/Getz. measure and ascertain where Astrud should be singing from.

What causes changes and what we can deduce from the changes made are not relevant to my point.

I think we speak for both camps this forum needs a facepalm emoicon. Effectively you are only after a measurable change, not after what that change means....

 

I'm happy to give ground to you on understanding cause and effect.

You should at least check your foundation on "correlation does not imply causation" understanding is on solid ground first before you ceding it..
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I'm all for "debate" but when the discussion likens a brand to a con-man, a weight loss tea and other unfair comparisons, made by people that have not even heard or used this product - I'd be inclined to close it, but we are in the Great Debate forum so I'm cutting some slack.

It is disappointing though to see some industry members getting involved and being so vocal about something they've not heard or tried as well. I would expect better, and they should have greater respect for their industry members, on a public forum.

I'm all for discussion, but some comments are on the edge of going too far in here.

SR (AU) are obviously aware of the thread, and I actually applaud them for not really getting involved. The best they can do is offer some auditions, a money back guarantee and even a home trial program (which they've enquired to me about doing).

By all means, debate, but be respectful and perhaps hear something before you so seriously criticise it. I've heard the products in a treated room (and I'm also using some SR cables in my system now), but the majority of participants in this debate are fiercely and aggressively one-sided so I'm reluctant to get involved.

I'm totally with @@guru though.

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