Vintage amp vs. newer second hand amp for KEF Reference model three

[Audiobliss]

Hi all,

 

This is the first time I'm posting.

 

I have recently purchased a pair of KEF Reference model three speakers (made in1994) and am in the process of acquiring an amp.

 

I have so far auditioned (with my speakers) a Naim 150/112 flatcap combo, Musical Fidelity M6i, and will soon be testing a Trigon energy amp.  To my ears the Naim setup was far superior to the Musical Fidelity which had more volume but sacrificed just about everything else. 

 

I have also hear a friends vintage luxman 308 paired with KEF 104/ab speakers and the sound was very impressive!  Unfortunately I no longer have the opportunity to audition my friends amp with my speakers.  So my question is, would a vintage amp such as this (or better) perform well on newer speaker systems such the KEF models I have? 

 

I understand the answer depends on a whole range of variables but just in general terms would I get more bang for my buck with a newer second hand amp or a vintage amp which made a name for its self in the 70s or 80s.  I guess the main aspect I am concerned with is clean, detailed sound quality.

 

My budget is not yet set in concrete but somewhere between $1500 and $3400 depending on what it would take to satisfy my ear.

 

Any thoughts would be much appreciated:)

 

Thanks!

[holliswhy]

For the Kefs, my guess is to use a modern amp, like the musical fidelity.

The extra power will help.

Check the classified here. Plenty of bargains.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Audiobliss]

Thanks for sharing holliswhy,

 

I'll see what the Trigon energy amp does over the weekend too.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

It is impossible to say, since there are many good vintage amps and quite a few not so good ones. Same deal with modern amps. Your best option is to listen to a range of amps (which you seem to be doing now) and choose an appropriate one. 

[holliswhy]

Heard them with some focal utopia. Can't go wrong with them.

[legselevens]

Hi Audiobliss,

 

I have the later reference series model 3.2. I have used them with my Musical Fidelity A5 which is a good match but I am getting excellent results with Hypex NC400 mono blocks. At the moment I'm using them with a NAD M51 dac straight into the Ncores and loving it but I may put the Audio Note valve pre amp back into the chain sometime.

[Audiobliss]

Thanks for the suggestions  guys be I'll looking into them. 

 

The vintage amps I have my eye on that are available at the moment are the Luxman l550, Luxman L510, Accuphase E303 and Sansui AU 2000 any thoughts on these models?

[legselevens]

Can't help you there as I've not heard any of those but having almost the same speakers myself I would suggest going for something with decent drive. Not that they're difficult to run it's just they will really knock your socks off with the right amp. Unless you're specifically wanting vintage gear I can highly recommend the NCores for this speaker. Don't be put off by what you might read about class D amps. When investigating them for myself I read of many people who use Bryston amps (also considered excellent for the Kefs) who have sold their Brystons once they have heard the Ncores.There are a few build services available for Ncores if you're not DIY minded and they are usually around the $2000 mark delivered. Another option would be something from Wyred 4 Sound.

[muzzagruzz]

There's an ME850 power amp and ME24 pre-amp in the classifieds.

Stunning combination. Would be great if you could audition them with your speakers?

[legselevens]

ME amps are well regarded. I had a loan of a small power amp once and it was very energetic sounding. I would have liked to try it longer but it had a more than significant power up in rush thump which I wasn't prepared to deal with.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

ME amps are well regarded. I had a loan of a small power amp once and it was very energetic sounding. I would have liked to try it longer but it had a more than significant power up in rush thump which I wasn't prepared to deal with.

 

A thump in any ME power amp suggests either the amp is in need of service, or it has been serviced poorly (usually the result of a tech fitting unmatched devices in the output stage). DC offset during power-up should be less than 0.1 Volts. You should obtain a known good sample, before you rush to judgement. Many used products (from any manufacturer) may have a questionable history. 

[legselevens]

I thought in rush current noise was considered common with many designs that have large caps?  Anyway I liked the music it made. It was the thump that was judged to be undesirable.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I thought in rush current noise was considered common with many designs that have large caps?  Anyway I liked the music it made. It was the thump that was judged to be undesirable.

 

No. Conventional solid state amps (ie: Those with unmatched components and not perfectly symmetrical topology) exhibit a DC thump at switch-on, due to the lack of these things. This is usually dealt with, by employing a muting relay. When the NFB system catches up, the DC instability goes away and the amp runs fine. ME amps employ carefully matched components throughout and perfectly symmetrical topology. These factors eliminate any audible thumps. Since there is no muting relay in any ME power amp, any DC shifts can be audible. Large DC shifts indicate a fault. Very small DC shifts still occur, but they should be inaudible in a properly functioning amp. Very old amps may exhibit a thump, when the main electrolytics have reached the end of their useful life, so that is also a possibility. IME, the latter is a much rarer event than poor servicing, by lazy techs. 

Edited January 17, 2015 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Audiobliss]

I auditioned the Trigon Energy today,

 

I thought it was quite good, clean, detailed sound with well controlled lows, not entirely happy with the sound of vocals though, a bit thin or something to that effect.

 

And I just love hearing vocals through nice gear, could be a deal breaker for me.

 

 

My luck day came up and I have a chance to audition a vintage luxman 308 next weekend.  Very interested in how it will compare with the newer amps I have tried recently!

 

It should shed a lot of light on my modern vs. vintage quest at last!

 

By the way, has any one bought any equipment off 2ndHifi (based in Denmark)?

 

Not quite sure if its a dodge site or not

 

 

Cheers

[djb]

Only a general view

For me vintage systems are secondary systems it is nice to create a system as it would have been at its supposed best in say 1981 with the synergies then considered by most experts to be the best.

For me this system wouldn't mix musical cultures ie highly efficient (for their time) British speakers wouldn't be paired with s monster USA amp.

My primary system is the system that delivers best sound quality SQ that my budget can build.

I don't believe that this ^^^ could ever be a vintage system.

There have been evolutionary SQ improvements in pretty much all component technology since the 1960s

My Primary rig might/does have a vintage tuner and a TT but every thing else will be pretty much circa 21st century.

Which throws up a question are your speakers really vintage technology?

[loksta]

A newbie commenting here , I think you hit the nail on the head djb with best sound quality that the budget can afford, hoping your not right with the vintage being secondary, mix that with some nostalga is why I'm taking a punt on vintage speakers and amp aragon 4004 with deltas, but going modern marantz 7008 probably as a pre amp short term not sure. I don't think this modern could cope with the demands of the old infinitys  as a amp, we will see when they arrive its got bi amp capapabilities  with 165 watts  per channel at 6 ohms dunno little worried as infinitys are demanding 4 ohms nominal.   I don't  know if the marantz counts as a high end amp , btw i don't understand why someone wouldn't mix and match vintage british and usa people of the time did it all the time as we would now if the best component was from one country and another from another , then again I would throw a modern engine in a classic body of a old classic car.

[djb]

Wasn't suggesting you couldn't/shouldn't mix vintage and new, sorry to mislead .

My preference for nostalgia systems is to make them as they would have been. Say > leak sandwich 600 speakers with a leak Troughline tuner and a leak stereo 30 valve amp. Bit like a vintage car enthusiastic wouldn't add the wrong 8 cylinder engine to what had been a 4 cylinder configuration.

If you vary the system designers then available parameters with the car you get a hit rod!

[Audiobliss]

I would think that you are right djb, newer amps should sound better.  But so far I have not heard this in the few amps I have tried.  Maybe I would need to spend alot more on modern gear than my current budget allows, after all, the vintage gear I am refering to was top end at the time and now I am looking at almost the opposite end of the spectrum with modern gear.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

 

I would think that you are right djb, newer amps should sound better.  But so far I have not heard this in the few amps I have tried.  Maybe I would need to spend alot more on modern gear than my current budget allows, after all, the vintage gear I am refering to was top end at the time and now I am looking at almost the opposite end of the spectrum with modern gear.

 

 

 

The phrase: "Newer amps should sound better" is a false conclusion. A GOOD old amp can often best a not-so-good new amp. New amps often employ poor decisions on the part of the designer/manufacturer. Such as:

 

* Solid state switching.

* Solid state volume controls.

* Cheaper parts.

* Etc.

[Telecine]

Just to through a cat amongst the pidgeons, I have these older KEF Reference series sound very good when paired with the right valve amp.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Telecine

[Audiobliss]

Haven't heard any valve amps with them yet but I tried out a vintage (1971) luxman sq507x amp today. Beautiful sound, the midrange really came alive and everything just kind of sounded louder and cleaner. Maybe a little slower in terms of response compared to the Trion, but would I pay thousands more (RRP $5000) for that and not have that sweet sound I heard today? 

 

I think I have settled on vintage and most probably vintage luxman at that!

 

I have my eye on a 100w Luxman L510 currently on eBay. But was a little put off when I realised its power was rated in IHF (although it does not say peak IHF, it just states IHF at 8 ohm, 0.007% thd 20hz - 20khz) so I'm not exactly sure how to compare it to RMS rated power.  I've heard it would be around 30 to 40% less. It weighs 18kg so one would think it can't be too much less than that. 

 

Does anyone have any experience with this series of amps?  They appear to be quite highly regarded. Are there any other vintage luxman models anyone would recommend? 

 

Also if anyone has any higher end vintage (70s - to early 80s) Luxmans for sale I would love to hear from you. 

[k-k-k-kenny]

There are plenny in Japan:

http://yahoo.aleado.com/23792-catlist.html

You could check out the tubed ones too.

Factor in risk (no realistic possibility of returns if disappointed), commission for your auction deputy (10%), shipping, GST of 10% on the lot if the landed cost is over $1K, plus a step-down transformer ... It's mainly been ok for me.

Don't bother with the black cased Alpine/Luxman models from 1984 onwards.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Haven't heard any valve amps with them yet but I tried out a vintage (1971) luxman sq507x amp today. Beautiful sound, the midrange really came alive and everything just kind of sounded louder and cleaner. Maybe a little slower in terms of response compared to the Trion, but would I pay thousands more (RRP $5000) for that and not have that sweet sound I heard today? 

 

I think I have settled on vintage and most probably vintage luxman at that!

 

I have my eye on a 100w Luxman L510 currently on eBay. But was a little put off when I realised its power was rated in IHF (although it does not say peak IHF, it just states IHF at 8 ohm, 0.007% thd 20hz - 20khz) so I'm not exactly sure how to compare it to RMS rated power.  I've heard it would be around 30 to 40% less. It weighs 18kg so one would think it can't be too much less than that. 

 

Does anyone have any experience with this series of amps?  They appear to be quite highly regarded. Are there any other vintage luxman models anyone would recommend? 

 

Also if anyone has any higher end vintage (70s - to early 80s) Luxmans for sale I would love to hear from you. 

 

I was a service agent for Luxman for several decades and I know them quite well. The L510 is a very respectable amp. A couple of things:

 

* There is no such thing as "RMS power", despite what thousands of people say. It is a meaningless term. The correct term is 'Watts', or, perhaps, 'Continuous Watts'. Now I realise I am being pedantic, but it is important to get things right. Besides, now you can lord it over others. 

 

* The L-510 is a REAL 100 Watts Continuously rated amplifier. Ignore that peak power stuff. The IHF ratings are quite acceptable and indicate the conditions which surround the measurements. It is a tough measurement protocol and quite a few modern (and vintage) amps would not meet the IHF conditions.

 

* Not only is the L-510 rated at 100 Watts Continuous, but the first 8 Watts of that 100 Watts is delivered in Class A (with 8 Ohm loads). That is an astonishingly generous rating. The vast majority of Class A/B amplifiers (then and now) deliver somewhere are 0.05 ~ 0.1 Watts Class A. 

 

* The L-510 is fitted with generous heat sinking and, provided it has plenty of airflow, can sustain it's power ratings easily.

 

Now, the bad news: 

 

The L-510, like any convection cooled amp running lots of Class A bias will show considerable deterioration of the electrolytic caps. These may require replacement (unless they've already been done). Additionally, I've found that many solder joints in the hotter sections of the amplifier will likely require attention. 

 

In good operational order, with new caps, the Luxman L-510 is a damned good amp. 

[Audiobliss]

The listing for the L510 was ending before I received your responses KKKKeny and Zaphod, so I took a bit of a risk and bought it.  And thanks for the link KKKKeny, very handy to know. 

 

I was very relieved to read your comments on the L510 Zaphod, thanks for pointing out the continuous power rating also.  I knew about the 8w of class A but didn't mention it as I thought most people would say it would not be that high, and I didn't mind either way.   

 

The amp has apparently had some work done to it in a recent pre-sale service, replacement of some caps, relay, and de-oxidization of certain parts.  If however, I did need to get it looked at, is there anyone in Melbourne you would recommend for the work? 

 

Being a Japanese model, its 100v, could anyone advise on what kind of step down I need (in terms of maintaining sound quality)? I made sure the hertz rating on the amp (50 - 60hz) is compatible with Australian power. 

 

Thanks again for your feedback, really appreciate it.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

8 Watts Class A is HUGE. Consider all the small, single ended valve amps. Many are rated for less than 8 Watts. 8 Watts translates to around 100dB acoustic peaks, when using average sensitivity loudspeakers. 100dB is plenty loud. For many listeners, the L510 may rarely leave it's Class A region of operation. And I remind you that the vast majority of Class A/B amplifiers possess no more than 0.1 Watts of Class A bias. The downside, as I mentioned is that the amp MUST receive plenty of cooling air. That means: Forget about operating it in the confines of a cabinet. NOTHING should be placed on top and a minimum of 100mm of space should be allowed at the top of the amp.

As for work performed, well, I don't trust anyone I cannot approach personally, let alone on the other side of the planet. Lies are cheap and plentiful on eBay. I hope, for your sake, that the amp was reasonably truthfully presented.

I don't know the Melbourne scene, but others may have suggestions for good techs who can work on your amp.

You MUST is a 240VAC - 100VAC (NOT 110VAC) step-down transformer, rated for AT LEAST 400VA. More is better, but beyond (say) 750VA is pointless. An Aussie made transformer is best, if you can find one. I am not a fan of Chinese transformers, as the quality can be highly variable.