muznuts Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi, as per my last posts i am new to this world and so with my interweb researching i am discovering new things all the time but i have a question re cables i have been staggered by the cost of some hi-end cables, some upwards of $40K and even saw some for over $100K, for 1 cable so my question is not weather they work better than reasonably priced ones, i know that's subjective, maybe this is too... i want to know what actually makes them so much, is it simply the materials (gold/silver) and labour that goes into them?? i would presume a cable that expensive is like a Bentley, every component hand made in one high tech workshop by highly trained experts? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest myrantz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 i have been staggered by the cost of some hi-end cables, some upwards of $40K and even saw some for over $100K, for 1 cable so my question is not weather they work better than reasonably priced ones, i know that's subjective, maybe this is too... Are you game enough to ask the wife the same question if she wants a Hermes bag? Price List. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 :popcorn: You are brave dear ol Muznuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alistairm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Muz... and area of almost endless debate. We'll have the climate change believers and deniers holding hands and singing Kumbaya before we sort this one out. First you need to work out whether you are someone who thinks cables sound different. If you do, then you will be someone who accepts that cables can be used to "tune" the sound of the setup. Listen to something like a JPS Aluminata next to a Jorma Origo some time though. Both expensive, both fantastic, but with quite different sound signatures. Which is "better" will depend on the rest of your setup. If you have a slightly peaky setup the Aluminata will be wonderful. If you have a very neutral setup, the Origo is a touch more transparent. There are some great cables out there for "reasonable" prices. By the time you're spending over $100K on your cable loom you're so far down the audiophile rabbit hole you just have to embrace it and enjoy the ride! Think of cables like the cost of track days and tarmac rally events... something to indulge in once you've got the car you want. But an essential part of the full experience in high end. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Spyne~ Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Because people are stupid enough to pay that much for exclusivity. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemini07 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think Alistair has summed it up really well. I'd also add that sometimes, especially if you're not too technically minded, you might just be better off just enjoying whatever differences you think you are hearing and leave it at that. Otherwise, would you go into detail determining precisely what makes one DAC better than another, or a stylus or cartridge etc? Lots of people do of course, and that's their prerogative, but my own focus is on the sound itself. I wouldn't go buying a cable because it's made with gold, silver, platinum or dozens of different herbs and spices, but if that's what makes it add to the sound I like, so be it. Having said that, system matching and room suitability are critical and sometimes particular cables may have a fine tuning effect after all other elements have been dealt with. I'd be more focussed on getting essentials right before spending time on cables. If you are really interested in how some manufacturers put their cables together, try going to the websites for the following: www.antipodesaudio.com www.eti-research.com.au http://www.highfidelitycables.com/ http://www.aurealisaudio.com.au/speaker-cables/ Obviously this list is not exclusive, nor am I advocating any for personal reasons. Enjoy the journey! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondegreen Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Like anything in this game one needs to do research.... Some of it is just nonsense, while some manufacturers are the real deal. Silver is king as a conductor of electricity, followed by gold, then copper. Making them pure requires effort and tech know how. Over longer distances cable takes on characteristics of inductance or capacitance. Good design mitigates this. Ditto for the skin effect, where the coating, or dialectic interferes with the signal. A lot of these deleterious signal effects are well known to engineers, but only really become a serious problem over kilometers of cable (!!). However a bit of inductance or capacitance in a cable magnifies problems when impedance mismatches between components are present. This is often why people hear some differences between analogue cables. In digital cable is where it gets quite important. In order to transmit a clean square wave, you need huge bandwidth. As I understand it, this is because replicating a square wave over an analogue cable requires a Fourier transform, where very very high frequencies come into play to generate an analogue square wave. Yes Of course HFs are audible, but they are essential in creating a nice crisp square wave. Get this wrong and you'll have very distorted un-square signals, where your output will be prone to a higher noise floor and timing errors (jitter). Digital is NOT just digital. Bits ain't bits. Coax digital cables need to be greater than 1.5 m in length if each end is not exactly 75 ohm, so you'll get standing wave reflections. If they're exactly matched, no problem, any length will do. My personal view is that analogue cables matter a lot less than digital cable, where good design is very audible. It all adds up to better sound, but analogue cables are where diminishing returns really kick in. You may hear differences on a really good system, and you may hear it on a so so system with impedance mismatches etc. A lot of the time you may hear no difference. It depends on so much... Hope that helps 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_F Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Silver is king as a conductor of electricity, followed by gold, then copper. Yes silver is the best and then copper, but they are surprisingly very close. Gold is a very poor conductor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guru Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 1-silver 2- copper 3- gold 4- aluminium 5- zinc 6- nickel 7- brass ( of which most RCA plugs/ sockets are made of ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest myrantz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 In order to transmit a clean square wave, you need huge bandwidth. As I understand it, this is because replicating a square wave over an analogue cable requires a Fourier transform, where very very high frequencies come into play to generate an analogue square wave. Not sure what this is about, but probably more correct on the bandwidth, and less correct on fourier transform.. cables don't do fourier transforms.. The throughput of any cable is determined by the bandwidth (frequency range).. Wider bandwidth = faster throughput because you can pack more data over the length of the wire for the same time unit.. Narrow bandwidths will result in the the signal being attenuated over distance, and this affect the information/signal in the higher frequencies. Higher bandwidth = less attenuation (or rather more uniform across the spectrum). Something like that (don't take it verbatim).. I've been trying to find a good write up on the Internet but gave up.. I'm sure people here can explain it better. Suffice to say, the behaviours are very well known, and very predictable. An easy to relate to example is the copper telephone network. The closer you are to the exchange, the higher the ADSL speed you get, and the better the voice clarity on your analog copper phone. The further it goes, the worse it can be. The more variables you know, the more predictable the situation can be. Hi-end hifi is very different, it's totally unpredictable... Hi end can be very high priced, and be very reasonably priced as well... it's a very interesting hobby, and at times very religious too. Yes silver is the best and then copper, but they are surprisingly very close. Gold is a very poor conductor. Personally I'm more concerned with the conductors after they oxidies (e.g. Silver Sulphide, Silver Oxide or Copper Oxide).. Nothing remains pure forever (afaik anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surprisetech Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Because people are stupid enough to pay that much for exclusivity. Good to see someone attempt an answer to the actual question. (i.e. "not whether they work better".... but.... "what actually makes them (cost) so much") 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.M Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Good to see someone attempt an answer to the actual question. (i.e. "not whether they work better".... but.... "what actually makes them (cost) so much") Well, may be so if you think all buyers of expensive cables are 'stupid'. It's hardly a well thought out or intelligent answer though, with that reasoning one would have to say that Kerry Packer was stupid with all the money he gambled at casinos. If someone has the financial means and it gives them enjoyment what place does anyone else have to pass judgement? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 @@David.M "If someone has the financial means and it gives them enjoyment what place does anyone else have to pass judgement?" This seems a completely different question to that posed by the OP. But then (almost) every other poster has fiddled with the question as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faxcomp Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Wow. i must admit that when I saw the title of the post, I did cringe, but the question is slightly different to the normal question about cables. That's probably why some are quick to get into the debate about sound difference in cable. That's not the question. To answer the question, my guess (however I'm no expert) is that the cost is made up of a few factors. The least important - The cost of materials, The most important - Brand name and marketing. In between - Research and development. When a company has one of the above, it sets the appropriate price. When it has two of the above, it's gets more expensive. When it has all three of the above, make sure your sitting down. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.M Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) @@David.M "If someone has the financial means and it gives them enjoyment what place does anyone else have to pass judgement?" This seems a completely different question to that posed by the OP. But then (almost) every other poster has fiddled with the question as well. You're right that I didn't directly answer the OP's question, was more a response to the label that the buyers are 'stupid'. Having said that, "financial means and it gives them enjoyment" I would say has a part in the prices charged for high end cables (fair to say just about all high end luxury items). I'm sure the producers of these super expensive cables etc have a good idea about the spending capacity and wants/likes of their target customers and manufacture/present their product accordingly. I've never been involved in the industry but imagine materials, performance, presentation, prestige/exclusiveness & expendable income/buying habits of buyers would all contribute to the end price. Edited August 21, 2014 by David.M 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 David M PMed me a while ago to politely enquire as to why I'd chosen to quote his post and not another in the thread. Below is my inarticulate response "Lol it was the last post I read I'd noticed that "everyone" had fiddled/diverted the question in some way. I was about to do the same Took control of my self and wrote that slightly strange post If ive offended you I will remove or change it. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benje Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 cost also involves the number of units sold. If the cable isn't mass-produced in high volumes, then the overhead will be a lot higher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surprisetech Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Wow. i must admit that when I saw the title of the post, I did cringe, but the question is slightly different to the normal question about cables. That's probably why some are quick to get into the debate about sound difference in cable. That's not the question. To answer the question, my guess (however I'm no expert) is that the cost is made up of a few factors. The least important - The cost of materials, The most important - Brand name and marketing. In between - Research and development. When a company has one of the above, it sets the appropriate price. When it has two of the above, it's gets more expensive. When it has all three of the above, make sure your sitting down. Good to see another answer to the actual question. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surprisetech Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Well, may be so if you think all buyers of expensive cables are 'stupid'. It's hardly a well thought out or intelligent answer though, with that reasoning one would have to say that Kerry Packer was stupid with all the money he gambled at casinos. If someone has the financial means and it gives them enjoyment what place does anyone else have to pass judgement? Didn't say I agreed, and don't think it was a great answer either. Just suggesting that most replies, while interesting, were not addressing the OPs question. That post did - sort of! Have no problem with folk indulging their passion a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proftournesol Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Because people are stupid enough to pay that much for exclusivity. No, it's because most people aren't stupid enough to pay those prices that gives you exclusivity! I think that if you have a system with good resolution, you'll definitely hear a difference, whether it is worth the money is up to you to decide. It is hard to see how the money reflects material and manufacturing costs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemini07 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 OK, I admit my first response may not have focused solely on what the OP was asking, ie, exactly what makes a 'high end' cable so expensive. I assumed the OP may have also been interested in purchasing hi end cables if the prices could be justified. I'll have to remember the dangers of making an assumption.... And to read the question/s more thoroughly... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Still mind boggling that a couple of pieces of wire can cost more than a family car? All I can do is picture in my mind the parts involved in both and the assembly. $$?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianb Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Marketing and profit making. Hi-end cabless sound different because they have a flawed design. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muznuts Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 thanks for the replies to this I am definitely NOT contemplating investing in such cables, even if I had the $ I could not justify that much money, well certainly not at my level myrantz your comparison to handbags pretty much summed up the answer to the question for me, if people are willing to pay it then....why not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willco Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yep the debate will rage Ad infinitum-- I see Tara Labs latest Wire plus who knows what "SOA" offering tops $100KUS a set Never rated their stuff myself Willco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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