statman Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 PSE-144 horns with AE 18" bass drivers. Firstly, I've had many horn systems over the years but always tired of the "horn" sound, despite loving the dynamics and resolution of them. I've spent many an enjoyable hour with Martins system, and think its fantastic, but could never maintain the joy in my own systems. I eventually found a way to get horn dynamics with stats and that's suited me well over the years, along with some reference studio monitors to serve as standards. The Synergy horn system really intrigued me though, and after a long wait I've finally got them going. I had to begin with balanced input solid state amps as the unbalanced inputs of my DEQX are temporarily out of action, and I wanted to use 6 identical channels to see what sort of levels I would need when I eventually go to tube amps. The compression drivers output is considerably higher than the mids, and is going to take some considerable damping with a passive crossover. Cant see how you would do it myself without losing a lot of dynamics, but passive crossover design is not my forte, I'm sure Paul has something figured out. Personally after playing around with the system, for admittedly only a short time, I think digital crossover and EQ is the only way to go. This is a very complex speaker system that requires a lot of manipulation to get it right. I started off with the recommended crossover point of 220Hz and thought "oh no, another bloody horn sound" . At that crossover point there was just not enough body in voices for me, and taking it up to 450HZ made a big improvement. I then spent hours adjusting levels and crossover points and slopes. Down to 12dB , but Pauls recommendations of higher slopes does work best. I got up early this morning to do some more "adjustments" but with the lights out and those big black horns fading into the dark I actually just sat there and really enjoyed the music, enthralled by the sheer dynamics and micro-dynamics flooding into the room. And this with less than optimal amps and dac. These speakers are going to take a lot of patience and work to get them right, yes they do have a slight "horn" sound, but I've already nearly eliminated it, and with these guys working so well with the really good digital we have these days, I reckon the potentional is unlimited. Exciting days ahead. And tube amps asap. Jeez I'd love a pair of Atilsleys Altec-like front loaded bass drivers to go with the PSE-144's, getting bass drivers near the 144's sensitivity is going to be hard. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 enthralled by the sheer dynamics and micro-dynamic Heheee, agreed.... and mine are still just wired up with clip leads Jeez I'd love a pair of Atilsleys Altec-like front loaded bass drivers to go with the PSE-144's, getting bass drivers near the 144's sensitivity is going to be hard. I am soon to build FLH with the AE TD15M driver for this purpose (well, 104dB/w/m anyways) ... and then am also looking towards amplifiers tuned for the range of required operation. What are you using for speak cable in that pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSeddon Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Hi statman, I am also using an original DEQX PDC2.6P with my Synergy Horns and told by DEQX to change the jumpers if you have to boost/cut by too much. I can send you the PDF document they sent me if you need to know how to do it. Are you getting any background noise/hiss as I am but I suspect it is the dodgy power going into the DEQX that is giving me grief. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hochopeper Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Hi Mick, If you stick with the active/DEQX and are just doing an LPAD for the passive crossover to match sensitivity it wouldn't be hard to do similar attenuation at the input to the amp or use an amp with lower gain to start with ... If you have a digital out DSP (I'm working on something based on miniDSP modules) and are using your own DIY DACs then it is possible to design the power amp as a buffer only and adjust the IV in your DAC to give higher voltage output directly and then have no more gain required. Just some thoughts. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Chris... Please include me on the invite for your first public/group/HiFi mates only to listen to these...you are a very clever engineer & I am really looking forward to seeing & listening to your implementation... Given your knowledge & background...it should be something quite special for a relatively modest outlay... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi Mick At what distance did you take measurements when adjusting the xover settings ? Great to see another pair up and running . I'm going to start out with Paul's passive xover first . Cheers Mal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calis Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Which of Atilsleys FLH's were you referring to? http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/61562-pics-new-mid-bass-horn-using-cnc-altec-fun/page-4 ? I've been considering the PSE, but figuring out whether a FHL instead of a sealed 18" would be the way to go to really get that sternum whack from the 50-150hz zone while maybe covering a total of 20-300 (maybe 450 per above). Would have ~800mm H x 700mm W x 450mm D to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hello Mick, thank you for the informative report. You have certainly highlighted that we can't throw together a Synergy horn system using someone's story on the internet and expect top notch sound. Imagine the plight of the poor devil who tries a passive, unequalised implementation. I think that today's Synergy horn technology is raw and green, and there is quite a bit of further development to go before it is able to play in the big league. The concept is fine. As you put it, 'intriguing'. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) FHL instead of a sealed 18" would be the way to go Same.... I'm aesthetically opposed to going upwards .... which means am having trouble fitting in a long enough path. Edited August 21, 2014 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hello Mick, thank you for the informative report. . Imagine the plight of the poor devil who tries a passive, unequalised implementation. cheers Lucky it's almost formalised for us mere mortals :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hochopeper Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hello Mick, thank you for the informative report. You have certainly highlighted that we can't throw together a Synergy horn system using someone's story on the internet and expect top notch sound. Imagine the plight of the poor devil who tries a passive, unequalised implementation. I think that today's Synergy horn technology is raw and green, and there is quite a bit of further development to go before it is able to play in the big league. The concept is fine. As you put it, 'intriguing'. cheers Not sure that's really the case with the PSE-144 though, compared to doing a fully DIY design. I thought Paul had/has a design for a passive crossover between the mid and compression driver. The issues are caused by it not being a full range speaker design. It's a result of the BYO bass-module aspect rather than being an issue with the horn part the way I'm reading it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think that today's Synergy horn technology is raw and green, and there is quite a bit of further development to go before it is able to play in the big league. At the real risk of sounding like a fanboy defending his patch ... and while I might have missed your angle here .... the way I read this I do not agree at all. Putting the lack of a passive crossover version aside (it's in development) .... and ignoring the fact that if you build your own bass modules, then you're also going to have to provide your own crossover there too. .... then I don't know what could be meant by "raw", "green", or "further development". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 There will be a full passive 3way version for those who want passive in the bass area . :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Same.... I'm aesthetically opposed to going upwards .... which means am having trouble fitting in a long enough path. Build a front loaded, full mouth, 115Hz straight tactrix upperbass horn (about 1m of vertical real estate required) and then a pair of sealed direct-radiating boxes for the frequencies below say 150-180Hz using multiple 10" drivers to keep it relatively narrow so it can be placed beside the horns. That is a s.o.t.a. bass solution right there mixed with PSE-144 emerging technology for the mids and uppers. I personally would not worry about the Altec front loaded horns or tapped/folded horns or anything rear-loaded for the bass. That is just my current thinking for what it is worth. Cheers, Anthony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statman Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi statman, I am also using an original DEQX PDC2.6P with my Synergy Horns and told by DEQX to change the jumpers if you have to boost/cut by too much. I can send you the PDF document they sent me if you need to know how to do it. Are you getting any background noise/hiss as I am but I suspect it is the dodgy power going into the DEQX that is giving me grief. Cheers Yeah I've got my DEQX adjusted for gain, and yes there is a slight bit of hiss from amps, to be expected at this sort of sensitivity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statman Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi Mick, If you stick with the active/DEQX and are just doing an LPAD for the passive crossover to match sensitivity it wouldn't be hard to do similar attenuation at the input to the amp or use an amp with lower gain to start with ... Chris Low gain 6B4G triode amps already built, but using 6 identical amps at the moment to get a feel for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statman Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi Mick At what distance did you take measurements when adjusting the xover settings ? Great to see another pair up and running . I'm going to start out with Paul's passive xover first . Cheers Mal Distance? Measurements? If I'm building amps or preamps they spend a lot of time on the scope, but this sort of thing is purely subjective for me- its all done by ear, but I've had many years with the DEQX/speaker tuning. But I will be using Amarra's IRC for checking/fine tuning when I'm ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) That is just my current thinking for what it is worth. Thankyou. I'll start a new thread to discuss options. Edited August 21, 2014 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statman Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Build a front loaded, full mouth, 115Hz straight tactrix upperbass horn (about 1m of vertical real estate required) and then a pair of sealed direct-radiating boxes for the frequencies below say 150-180Hz using multiple 10" drivers to keep it relatively narrow so it can be placed beside the horns. That is a s.o.t.a. bass solution right there mixed with PSE-144 emerging technology for the mids and uppers. I personally would not worry about the Altec front loaded horns or tapped/folded horns or anything rear-loaded for the bass. That is just my current thinking for what it is worth. Cheers, Anthony Yeah i agree with you, apart from the complexity and real estate needed. Atilsleys "Altec" is a bit better than a conventional Altec in that the port loading looks to give deeper bass than an A5 or 7. And its not too big. And FLH will "match" the sound of the FLH PSE-144 imo. How do you combine more than one quote into a reply post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry218 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Yeah i agree with you, apart from the complexity and real estate needed. Atilsleys "Altec" is a bit better than a conventional Altec in that the port loading looks to give deeper bass than an A5 or 7. And its not too big. And FLH will "match" the sound of the FLH PSE-144 imo. How do you combine more than one quote into a reply post? Mick,The BR is still better than the Altec, i have to apply multiple corrections to get it decent, and at the end it offers nothing than a proper 15-18" pro woofers in vented (Bass Reflex) Hope that helps Cheers Henry Edited August 21, 2014 by henry218 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hochopeper Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Mick, The BR is still better than the Altec, i have to apply multiple corrections to get it decent, and at the end it offers nothing than a proper 15-18" pro woofers in vented (Bass Reflex) Hope that helps Cheers Henry Sensitivity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Distance? Measurements? If I'm building amps or preamps they spend a lot of time on the scope, but this sort of thing is purely subjective for me- its all done by ear, but I've had many years with the DEQX/speaker tuning. But I will be using Amarra's IRC for checking/fine tuning when I'm ready.No probs , given the PSE is a different beast , the initial cross over measurements were down at 3metres not the 1 metre standard . It would be good to see the different house curves of peoples PSE set ups . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSeddon Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yeah I've got my DEQX adjusted for gain, and yes there is a slight bit of hiss from amps, to be expected at this sort of sensitivity. Great. I was worried I might have an issue with my DEQX. Congrats on the build btw. Looks great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hochopeper Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 How do you combine more than one quote into a reply post? Beside quote button i have a multiquote button, select that then select it on each of the other posts that you want to reply to. Then you end up with a pop up in lower right area of screen says 'Reply to x quoted post(s). Select that button and put the replies between each quoted section ... clear-ish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Sensitivity? Add more drivers :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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