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Selling overseas a cautionary tale....


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Just had a really bad selling experience that I wanted to share. This post is part warning/part me venting but really highlights the dangers of selling overseas using paypal.

So after trying to sell my Woo Audio WA5 SET amp locally for many weeks I decided to advertise on another well respected international forum. Here I instantly had a few bites from various people but the clincher was they were all overseas so shipping the 40kg beast was cost prohibitive for many.

Anyway there was one potential buyer to continued to show interest and began sending me a "to do" list comprising of demonstrating "proof of life" in which I would post a video of the amp in operation with the buyers email address written on a card and placed on top along with showing exactly how the item would be packed etc. ect.

To complicate things further English was not the first language so communication was often difficult. After dozens of exchanges the sale was beginning to be all too hard for me and was ready to throw in the towel however as I really needed to let this amp go ASAP and as he was the only interested buyer I persisted with the transaction.

Things started going bad the day before I was due to ship the amp as the buyer was extremely nervous about sending me $2600 and refused to pay until I provided a tracking number and photos of the amp at the carrier location.

This is where I got fed up an unknown to the buyer I rang Addicted to Audio to see if I could do a trade in (they sell Woo and also Luxman which was the amp I was after) so on the day I was due to ship out the Woo I popped in to the shop ready to make a deal. We set up my amp in the listening room which included a pair of Royal Princess 300B tubes and a couple of guys from the store gave it a good listen (on speakers and headphones) for about an hour. Although they were impressed unfortunately we couldn't strike a deal on the trade in although they did offer me the Luxman at a price I couldn't refuse so walked out of the shop with both amps so back to plan A again.

So a few hours after walking out of Addicted to Audio my amp was at the carrier ready for shipping. The buyer still refused to pay until I proved the amp was with the carrier and was provided with a tracking number and I wouldn't ship without payment but luckily the carrier agreed to do all the paperwork and then hold until I gave him the green light. Thankfully payment was made after providing what the buyer wanted so I gave to ok to ship.

Fast forward 1.5 weeks during which time my family and I are overseas on holiday and I decided to check my email. To my horror there was a paypal dispute claim and a bunch of emails from the buyer saying I had cheated him. Paypal had frozen the amount on my credit card ($2600 on a $3000 limit) which has put our holiday in jeopardy financially as we now only have a $400 buffer on the card.

The buyer is claiming one of the Royal Princess tubes was broken sending me a photo which to me appears to have been inserted incorrectly blowing the tube and wants $1200 compensation to get a new set. At this stage paypal is attempting to obtain more info from the buyer and has not asked me for anything yet. I'm not sure what to do.

This whole saga is crushing as I'm an honest seller and do not go out to deliberately cheat people. Unfortunately in the original list of demands from the buyer he did not ask me to demonstrate the RP300B tubes as when I decided to list the amp removed all expensive tubes and replaced with stock as I didn't want to put any more hours on them so the video was made with stock tubes.

The worst part is the buyer claiming the tube arrived in that condition but what he doesn't know was hours prior to shipping those same tubes were playing fine in the shop. Does he really think I'm that stupid that I would send him a known dud tube knowing full well that he could put in a paypal dispute?

So the crux of it is will paypal side with him and demand I pay for a new set of tubes or will I have enough evidence for it to go my way? I cannot prove to paypal the tube was operational and that it is now faulty due to his mistreatment so it will be interesting to see what happens.

Apologies for the long post but as you can appreciate I'm really annoyed by this and would like to hear any advice you might be able to offer.

Here's the photo of the tube he sent me.

post-122789-0-27544700-1406505735_thumb.

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Sorry hear that. Paypal (normally) take the buyers side.

It sounds like the buyer just wants to get a cheaper amp than agreed.

Keep send paypal proff of the amp was in mint condition and was working fine.

Have the buyer made contact to the shipping company?

Hope it ends well

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Paypal are hopeless , all you get from them is a standard automated response.

The buyer is always right which is why the system is rife with paypal chargeback scammers.

I feel your pain , had a similar experience with a paypal scammer myself a couple of years ago.

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A very sad episode, tb.  Unfortunately, some buyers - whether they're inside Oz or outside - always try to rip off the seller ... and it seems PayPal sides with them.

 

As Pulinap posted ... genuine sellers need some kind of escow service. :(

 

I hope you are able to resolve it to your satisfaction.

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

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Happened to me on several occasions over the years.

About 50/50 success getting Paypal to rule for me as the seller, even when unit was videoed working prior to shipping & date stamped.

If you had shipping insurance, you may (?) be able to claim for damage ?

Otherwise, get stat decs from anyone & everyone involved that are willing to give one.

The more evidence & technical fluff you can provide to PayPal the better for you.

Also goes to proving to PayPal how seriously you're taking the matter.

Good luck

Cheers

'Nutz

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Make sure that Paypal know that the tube was removed for safe shipping, and so correct operation of that tube is subject to correct installation of the tube by the buyer, which is not your risk.

 

Tell them that only a qualified technician should install an electrical part that operates at 400+ volts, and also because of the delicate nature of these parts -- even inserting them by holding the glass can cause internal failure. Mention that the buyer has not provided any evidence that the tube was not working prior to installation (by him), for example by using a tube tester. Mention that the buyer has also not provided a photo of the tube taken before he tried to install it.

 

The evidence the buyer has given is that he played around with it and blew it up. Ask Paypal to consider that.

 

Mention that the part in question, an electron tube, is exactly like a light globe, with a delicate filament, and a limited and unpredictable lifetime that might 'blow' at any time, and that all buyers of such equipment understand this. Mention how many hundreds of hours of usage the tube has.  And how even transport can unpredictably displace the internal parts, leading to a shortened and unpredictable life after transport

 

Do I understand correctly, that the RP300B tubes you sent are not the exact tubes used in the 'proof of operation' video? That's a bit complicated. The item as advertised was presumably with the RP tubes? Were the tubes visible in the advertisement photos, can't you show that the blown hot-spot was not there?

 

Mention the minimum replacement price for a used generic 300B tube, with exactly the same measured performance as the blown tube. Preferably with a link. (don't actually offer to pay for it).

 

Finally, does your advertisement say anywhere something like "item is used and working at present, but I cannot guarantee its functioning after transport due to the nature of this type of goods"?

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Last time I had a dispute with PayPal as a buyer with something damaged before it was even sent (had to break it to get it into the size packaging it was sent in!) I was told to send it back to the seller for replacement. As the freight cost was more than it was worth I didn't worry about it.

My point is though that I had to return the faulty item at my expense. Maybe if your buyer has to return the complete amp (as I am assuming you sold the amp as one item complete with tubes) then that might make him rethink the situation.

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Having been in a similar situation myself, you'll come off worse (as the seller).
I would offer full refund upon return of the amplifier - which he won't want to do I am sure.

There is also a way to get out of refunding him AND getting the amp back if you are that way inclined - it is dishonest and only for use with scammers. I know as I learned this lesson the hard way too.

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TB, I think Newman gives some good advice.

I had a similar problem with selling an Accuphase amp which resulted in my only negative feedback on EBay, after 10 years of 100% positive feedback. Unfortunately, ime also Paypal usually sides with the buyer, but one bit of advice is that you can telephone Paypal and speak to them direct to put your case. However, good luck with that as you will be dealing with a foreign call centre in the Phillipines, India or somewhere else, meaning you will get robotic responses from a human at the other end ;-((

One other thing is that in freezing your seller account, Paypal also freezes the buyers account while the dispute is being sorted. This affects him negatively too rendering his account useless, in my EBay case the buyer backed off as he needed to free his account for business purposes.

I think in my case and yours it's not a case of scamming, but rather someone trying to play things to their advantage.

Good luck with it all ...

Steve.

Edited by Steve M
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I don't believe that to be the case. He will absolutely still have full unlimited access to his account. He'll just have an open investigation. Remember in PayPal's eyes he is the innocent victim.

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Sorry to read  this also but Tube you should have walked away the moment there was a language barrier IMO.

 

If you or the buyer don't understand each other the transaction will always be in the grey area. Not good.

 

Hope you get it sorted.

 

ATBTase. 

Edited by Tasebass
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I don't believe that to be the case. He will absolutely still have full unlimited access to his account. He'll just have an open investigation. Remember in PayPal's eyes he is the innocent victim.

Marc,

In my similar EBay case, the buyer's account was definitely frozen during the disputed claim. He sent me a disgruntled message saying that he will have to withdraw the dispute because he needed to transact with his EBay/Paypal account to sell CDs, books etc as this was how he derived his main income. Or maybe his account wasn't frozen, but only that he could not transact in the normal manner?

The lesson learnt is that whenever I sell significant items on EBay now, I immediately empty my Paypal account to put things in my favour. Doesn't help with a locked Paypal account, but at least I've got my money intact.

Steve.

Edited by Steve M
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What about trying to source another set on the cheap for him.

Something like these

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-X-Sophia-Electric-Princess-300B-mesh-tube-for-WE-300B-845-2A3-amplifier-/181475323732?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item2a40c5af54

 

You can mention they have been tested to make sure they work! Covers you if they are not quite brand new.

 

The last 2 he sold were here

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-X-Sophia-Electric-Princess-300B-carbon-plate-tube-4-WE-300B-845-211-amplifier-/181464123728?nma=true&si=sWsgs1qtomguCyOseP9%252Fi%252FY9n3I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Edited by rocky500
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only 1 valve should be replaced,as 1 was broken

also have a good look at his /hers feedback and see if anything else has been,a bit off!

yes a full refund on return is what I would offer

as you have a video of the item working,that must be in your favour

was there any insurance,for loss or damage ?

and all the best

yes I have been stung too even though paypal found he did the same thing to at least 4 other people

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excellent advice from newman, and worth a shot.

 

but I feel your pain ! unfortunatley yes a lot of buyer protection from paypal, but not a lot of love if you are a seller. they are owned by ebay that also work the same way ! 

 

At one stage with ebay sales I removed ability of overseas bidders to place bids. this was in warning particularly from bidders from italy, africa, former USSR countries, also hong kong and china. 

 

there is one non ideal way out of all this whcih marc suggested. you simply agree to paypals terms and tell them to get the buyer to ship the item back whcih they have to do at their expense. this might work by either you getting the amp back or calling his bluff. only problem if sending back which guess what if they do then anything goes in the quality you receive the item in. they can basically put it in a plastic bag and ship it. no insurance requried nothing. all the proof they need is they shipped an item back to you. could even get  a brick back in return !  

 

there is a big chance they will get their money back and you are left with either a faulty item or something useless ! there are some big risks with dealing with overseas paypal or not.

 

if shipping to/from overseas, I only do with insurance now days for this very reason.

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I agree a full refund on return. Just the refund on the item. Not the return shipping cost mind you.

This will give the buyer the chance to get some redemption.

Also proof of working before posting should be sufficient. Especially if that video has the buyers name on a card.

Sellers are NEVER responsible once shipped, unless stated otherwise, especially if they have proof of the product working.

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if shipping to/from overseas, I only do with insurance now days for this very reason.

 

Have you ever had to claim from your insurance on 'damage', Al?

 

My understanding is that - A/Post, anyway - will pay on total loss ... but not on damage.  And A/Post is the one who is insuring your item when you post it.

 

Possibly, courier companies have different rules?

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

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Have you ever had to claim from your insurance on 'damage', Al?

 

My understanding is that - A/Post, anyway - will pay on total loss ... but not on damage.  And A/Post is the one who is insuring your item when you post it.

 

Possibly, courier companies have different rules?

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

 

good question andy, and would have to be honest no never made a claim. just gives peace of mind I guess. I know atleast one local courier company though gives "free" insurance it isnt worth anything as its expected you will accept the goods on receipt. like the truck driver is going to wait while you unpack the thing have a look at it, test it etc. no one would ever be able to make a claim on it. insurance is not cheap either. its why I generally expect the buyer to pay for it. one possible option in all these things is let the purchaser arrange shipping and insurance. so when the thing arrives caput they can make the claim though am not sure paypal would play ball on that. I dont think insurance really factors in their consideration. its just about goods being shipped and received.

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Have you ever had to claim from your insurance on 'damage', Al?

 

My understanding is that - A/Post, anyway - will pay on total loss ... but not on damage.  And A/Post is the one who is insuring your item when you post it.

 

Possibly, courier companies have different rules?

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

good question andy, and would have to be honest no never made a claim. just gives peace of mind I guess. I know atleast one local courier company though gives "free" insurance it isnt worth anything as its expected you will accept the goods on receipt. like the truck driver is going to wait while you unpack the thing have a look at it, test it etc. no one would ever be able to make a claim on it. insurance is not cheap either. its why I generally expect the buyer to pay for it. one possible option in all these things is let the purchaser arrange shipping and insurance. so when the thing arrives caput they can make the claim though am not sure paypal would play ball on that. I dont think insurance really factors in their consideration. its just about goods being shipped and received.

Incorrect,

When you send something via Australia Post don't assume that they will automatically cover for damages or lost. The fee is just for delivering the item only. If you need insurance this is how it works with Australia Post:

http://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/optional-extras-domestic.html

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Incorrect,

When you send something via Australia Post don't assume that they will automatically cover for damages or lost. The fee is just for delivering the item only. If you need insurance this is how it works with Australia Post:

http://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/optional-extras-domestic.html

 

definitely you have to pay for insurance. even previously only upto $400 was included free. after that had to pay for it.  :)

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definitely you have to pay for insurance. even previously only upto $400 was included free. after that had to pay for it.  :)

Not now:

Extra Cover Click to expand

Sending something valuable or important? Extra Cover provides you with cover for the specified value of your item (up to $5,000) if your item is lost or damaged while being carried by Australia Post

PriceExtra Cover Click to expand

Sending something valuable or important? Extra Cover provides you with cover for the specified value of your item (up to $5,000) if your item is lost or damaged while being carried by Australia Post

Price

$1.50 per $100 of your item's value (or part thereof); and

You must add $2.95 for Signature on Delivery if your item is valued above $300.

Please note: the Signature on Delivery fee does not apply to Courier Post, as this feature is included in the Courier Post service.

How to add this feature

Simply choose Extra Cover as an additional feature when you pay for your item in-store or online via Click and Send.

Adding this feature after you've bought your satchel or postage label? You can purchase Extra Cover at a post office.

Please note: The Signature on Delivery fee does not apply to Courier Post, as this feature is included.

$1.50 per $100 of your item's value (or part thereof); and

You must add $2.95 for Signature on Delivery if your item is valued above $300.

Please note: the Signature on Delivery fee does not apply to Courier Post, as this feature is included in the Courier Post service.

How to add this feature

Simply choose Extra Cover as an additional feature when you pay for your item in-store or online via Click and Send.

Adding this feature after you've bought your satchel or postage label? You can purchase Extra Cover at a post office.

Please note: The Signature on Delivery fee does not apply to Courier Post, as this feature is included.

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Thanks all some really great advice and I have definitely learned from the experience.

The buyer is currently chasing insurance (shipped via TNT) and according to him he is saying he will receive some form of compensation however he told me that if I wanted him to close the paypal claim today he wanted $600USD up front saying the claim was going to take approx 20 days to process so I was effectively screwed!

Anyway at that point the gloves were off and I replied a long response using some of the points posted above. I told him I had nothing to gain by shipping a known faulty valve and would have gladly posted another video of the amp with the RP valves inserted had he asked and I think he finally saw the light and dropped the claim......

So hopefully that is the end of that and I can chalk it up as a lesson learned without any financial impact. More importantly, after 3 days of anxiety I can now finally relax and enjoy my holiday in Singapore :)

Time to hit a few HiFi shops to celebrate.....

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