Milo Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Ok, so how many of you flick past the SNA front page to get to the forums/new content? Well this caught my eye, apparently posted by Marc today. http://www.stereonet.com.au/articles/news/can-you-hear-the-difference/ Can you tell the difference? When sampling several violins it seems even some of the expert violinists were confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) They do sound different, I wouldn't know what one was the new one, and old one though. Edit: If I was familiar with the sound of a Stad' maybe? but then a difference in pressure of bow against strings would make the sound different (just guessing as I ma no player of string instruments). So we are assuming the musician is reproducing each play precisely the same. Meh... Edited January 28, 2014 by ortofun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest myrantz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Can you tell the difference? No... On a related note, recently I played back an album "Joshua Bell and Friends"... (Yes it felt weird playing this after Christmas).. Don't like violins much but that CD is probably an exception.. Not sure where he is before in my life, but I'm a fan now.. And so I googled him and he has a strad. It even has a name.... For me it really doesn't matter to me what he uses. He's a genius!! Give this man any violin and he'd be very good at it. IMO the musician is more important than the instrument. And a man that achieved success with his skills obviously have earned the piles of money required to buy anything he likes... There's no need to question his choice, and his choice doesn't have to make sense to me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 saw a docco from europe a while ago and they did the double blind with top classical musos. The strad was picked as second best sounding and the one thats' usually thought of as 'next best' came out as 'best' sounding. So they were both picked as the really good ones but the strad has got the name recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekyboy Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Interesting, but the results from the double blind using the players is not surprising really.......................and they got Kermit to report on it too, which was also interesting! Cheers, Keith 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve M Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 The test is flawed ...what, you are trying to do this on your computer, listening to some pis_y little computer speakers, your iPad or laptop and its inbuilt spkrs?? Where's the sound quality in the set-up to differentiate the fine nuances of two violins?? The only one way to tell the difference between the two violins is to sit in front of them and listen to them live and unamplified - raw into your lugholes. Or if you could somehow put the YouTube clip through a hi-end system, even then what is the bitrate and resolution of the Youtube audio stream? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Agree with that Steve, and while I can hear them as different (and this is through PC speakers), a lot would be masked due to what you mention. Edited January 28, 2014 by ortofun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Can you tell the difference? When sampling several violins it seems even some of the expert violinists were confused. When expert musicians cannot tell the difference when they are actually playing the instrument, then there is something very very profound to realise from this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) The test is flawed Perhaps I have misunderstood .... but I took the "can you tell the difference" bit from the video as just a bit of rhetoric / demo / set the scene. The real meat of the discussion is that the expert players cannot tell the difference between instruments when they are actually holding the violins. The only one way to tell the difference between the two violins is to sit in front of them and listen to them live and unamplified - raw into your lugholes This is what I understand that the test was.... Or if you could somehow put the YouTube clip through a hi-end system, even then what is the bitrate and resolution of the Youtube audio stream? In this case (360p) it's either vorbis or AAC at low bitrate (128?) Edited January 28, 2014 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Is it that they can't pick what violin is what brand, or are they saying they all sound the same. I think it is the former as I can hear a difference between the two in that clip, and that's through Harman Kardon PC speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest myrantz Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Does difference matter? Look at this video, see how happy he is.. Mortgage his life away to own his pride & joy. Everybody have moments like this... And yet he handles it so carelessly :lol: .. Would like to see people try to argue with Joshua Bell that violin experts couldn't pick it. Would love to see that same people have a violin duel with Bell too .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fordgtlover Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) The test dates back to 2012 and it has been discussed here before, but always useful for perspective. Here's a good written version of the same study. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/ Is it that they can't pick what violin is what brand, or are they saying they all sound the same. I think it is the former as I can hear a difference between the two in that clip, and that's through Harman Kardon PC speakers. From the written version: What’s more, no one has tested whether violinists themselves can truly pick up the supposedly distinctive sound of a Strad. The common wisdom is that they can, but Fritz and Curtin showed that this isn’t true. “Many people were convinced that as soon as you play an old violin, you can feel that it’s old, it’s been played a lot, and it has a special sound quality,†says Fritz. “People who took part in the experiment said it was the experience of a lifetime when we told them the results. They were fully convinced they could tell the difference, and they couldn’t.†Edited January 28, 2014 by fordgtlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Is it that they can't pick what violin is what brand, or are they saying they all sound the same. The majority thought they could pick the instrument, but they were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Would like to see people try to argue with Joshua Bell that violin experts couldn't pick it. I'm not sure I understand.... what would there be to argue?! (not being able to pick the difference doesn't mean there isn't a difference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin-hobart Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Interesting subject. I passed this link to a friend who is a cello player. Hopefully he won't mind me posting his (very slightly edited) comment per:- Yes, saw it. Seems interesting. However: Many of the older instruments that ‘project’ well in a large hall don’t sound all that great under the ear. When i first tried my cello, and compared it to others it sounded great in a decent sized room, huge sound. Compared to an old engligh Banks worth about $60k, the banks sounded harsh and bright in the same room. However, on the opera house stage, my cello sounded small, the banks sounded bigger and a Tononi worth well into the 6 figure territory carried better in the hall again. So that is one aspect that may count against the test.Second- some of the old instruments are difficult to play, uneven sound on some notes etc. Takes time to get used to them. Also, one of the players from the test wrote a long reply. The new instruments were allowed to be adjusted for best sound by the makers etc but the old instruments (often on loan from Museums, banks etc) were not allowed to be adjusted in any way, nor strings changed so it is possible that some were not set up ideally. Certainly an interesting test, and shows how our perception can be a flawed thing, but although the test does indeed remove many of these flaws, some still remained. Would be interesting to hear all of the instruments in a concert hall and see if the players came up with the same results. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoG Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 The test is trying to prove that violins are a victim of wine-tasting like prejudice. Once you take off the label and the price tag, what is better and worse no longer trends with price and pedigree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin-hobart Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 The test is trying to prove that violins are a victim of wine-tasting like prejudice. Once you take off the label and the price tag, what is better and worse no longer trends with price and pedigree. Yes; wine tasting also depends on time of day, appetite, what was had for dinner, general mood, did I fight with the wife last night, company, environment, etc, etc. Lots of variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Thanks Milo, I think I have even linked to this experiment in the past, deep in the bowels of some SNA discussion. Of course it is profound. It goes to the very core of what we all do as audiophiles, assessing and picking and choosing hifi components, and contemplating our own levels of enjoyment. Prejudice and bias completely rules with an iron rod over our very limited hearing and audio discernment, when it comes to small and often medium-sized differences in the sound waves themselves. If we actually want to know anything subtle about the sound waves themselves, our prejudice and bias has to be removed by force. Enter DBT. It is a universal requirement for experiments relating to human perception. No exceptions. Audiophiles live in denial. There are several reasons, including being 'educated' by the propaganda emanating from the audiophile press, but the biggest reason is ego. "I heard it, with my own ears, and I've been told I can trust my ears." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankn Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Very true Newman, It is the same with taste and to a lessor degree with sight - hearing is no different. The brain rules them all (well actually it your arse that rules everything but that's for another discussion) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 17, 2014 Volunteer Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Just hang on there guys... I've seen a night and day difference between night and day with my own eyes. Are you suggesting that I'm deluding myself? Edited February 17, 2014 by Sir Sanders Zingmore 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankn Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Could be, depends on where/when you saw the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin-hobart Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 ........Enter DBT. It is a universal requirement for experiments relating to human perception. No exceptions. Audiophiles live in denial. Oh dear; Old and endless ground of course but I'm surprised such blasphemy hasn't already brought the wrath of the SNA believers down on thy head. Mr Harley thinks blind testing is bunkum:- http://www.avguide.com/forums/blind-listening-tests-are-flawed-editorial?page=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcamry Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Might stay out of this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newman Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Oh dear; Old and endless ground of course but I'm surprised such blasphemy hasn't already brought the wrath of the SNA believers down on thy head. Mr Harley thinks blind testing is bunkum:- http://www.avguide.com/forums/blind-listening-tests-are-flawed-editorial?page=1 heh heh, read the comments. What was I saying about denial? :lol: :lol: Strangely enough, 28 May 2008, 4:18pm has not marked the end of the road, nor the beginning of the end, for DBT (or similar) as the only valid methodology for experiments related to human perception. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHC Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Ok, so how many of you flick past the SNA front page to get to the forums/new content? Well this caught my eye, apparently posted by Marc today. http://www.stereonet.com.au/articles/news/can-you-hear-the-difference/ Can you tell the difference? When sampling several violins it seems even some of the expert violinists were confused. Thank you Milo for this. Actually I could hear a difference even on my crap laptop speakers. After two listens one of the sample was noticeably better than the other. But thinking that this must be a trick question I choose the lesser one to be the Strad - and I was wrong! Just goes to show that bias can play tricks on one's judgement, should have just trust my ears. One consideration is that the legendary instrument may not necessarily be better in sound quality when compared with a modern instrument, but it is possible their advantage is in the ease with which a player could make a beautiful sound. I recalled an ABC Classics segment from last year when Emma Ayres visited the Afghanistan National Institute of Music. She watched this very talented student Samir learn the violin but was struggling for some reasons. So his teacher, who happens to have on him the great Isaac Stern's violin bow, lend the student this precious bow, and Samir was able to make wonderful music. There is a picture in here http://www.abc.net.au/classic/content/2013/04/28/3740184.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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