50 replies to this topic

[Art Vandelay]

I had the pleasure recently of hearing the MSB Signature DACIV (in a SGR system)
The system was really outstanding and actually better in many respects than a B&W 800 Diamond / Krell (600e) / Berkeley Alpha system I also recently heard.

The outstanding quality of the SGR / MSB system was the realistic delivery of mucical transients. I’ve heard many high-end digital front end systems over the years but none of them have quite got the transient attack and decay completely correct. I can only put this recent experience down to the MSB DAC which really does appear to live up to all the hype. Not only were transients rendered naturally but there was not a trace of any digital artifact, including grain, glare or hardness, nor was there any artificial smoothing, cream or sweetness. Best of all, i was able to listen at high levels without suffereing any listener fatigue. It was simply perfect and the closest thing to real (live) that I’ve heard. And all this was acheived with 16/44 source material. Unfortunately the listening room did limit the LF accuracy as well as constrain the image width but not sufficiently the rob the system of its magic or reduce the wealth of detail.

I had been looking at the Berkeley Alpha 2 which is a very fine converter but after hearing the MSB Signature DAC I’ve had to reevaluate the DAC budget. There really was no comparison.

I would be interested to hear comments / thoughts from other SNA members who have heard MSB DACIV based systems. Did you also hear what I heard?

[joz]

Good to hear about your experience. Hopefully one day I"ll get a chance to hear the MSB gear too,
Perhaps even in my system (hint hint Stuart). along with the music cube!

[Young Skywalker]

It was a pleasure to meet you David and thank you very much for those kind and positive words, you are more than welcome any time. We both agreed that the room is the limiting factor in most systems and my scenario is certainly no exception. I will naturally address this only weak link if and when circumstances permit. Since you visited, the system has taken another significant step forward with monoblock fully balanced active crossovers and balanced cables for the MT3F speaker system.

[kajak12]

I would be interested to hear comments / thoughts from other SNA members who have heard MSB DACIV based systems. Did you also hear what I heard?

No from me heard the msb/sgr combo 3 times nothing like real live unamplified music to my ears...........
If your ears like it then buy it now..............

[David.M]

Art,
I haven't heard either MSB/SGR gear but not too long ago I did spend a few hours with the same Krell 600e / 800Diamond system (though using the Krell Evo SACD as source), my interest was the B&W's. I was a bit underwhelmed, particularly the fatiguing aspect compared to my sound at home. Obviously the 800 Diamonds are superior to my previous model 802Ds, the bass was more extended with better detail, but the midrange & lower treble in particular was tiring which had me turning down the volume as time passed. I have to assume this was source/amp combo, I'd never heard Krells before and have to say I was surprised given their reputation. (at this stage I'm reassessing moving 'up' to the 800Diamonds).
Good luck with your DAC search

[Art Vandelay]

Art,
I haven't heard either MSB/SGR gear but not too long ago I did spend a few hours with the same Krell 600e / 800Diamond system (though using the Krell Evo SACD as source), my interest was the B&W's. I was a bit underwhelmed, particularly the fatiguing aspect compared to my sound at home. Obviously the 800 Diamonds are superior to my previous model 802Ds, the bass was more extended with better detail, but the midrange & lower treble in particular was tiring which had me turning down the volume as time passed. I have to assume this was source/amp combo, I'd never heard Krells before and have to say I was surprised given their reputation. (at this stage I'm reassessing moving 'up' to the 800Diamonds).
Good luck with your DAC search

David, points taken. Synergy is everything and any system is only as good as its weakest link. You would need to swap out the the Krell for other sources (and ditto the amps) in the same listening environment to be really sure. Listening to the new B&W800D's recently I didn't find them fatiguing in the mid - treble dep't and my ears are quite sensitive in that area.
OTOH, there are factors such as personal preference and music genre that can also influence amp / source selection.
BTW, I assume the 800's were 'run in'. They are notoriously bright when fresh out of the boxes of course.

[Art Vandelay]

It was a pleasure to meet you David and thank you very much for those kind and positive words, you are more than welcome any time. We both agreed that the room is the limiting factor in most systems and my scenario is certainly no exception. I will naturally address this only weak link if and when circumstances permit. Since you visited, the system has taken another significant step forward with monoblock fully balanced active crossovers and balanced cables for the MT3F speaker system.

Thanks Aaron and thank you for the hospitality and generosity of time. I can't imagine the system getting too much better so, wow, that's a scary thought.

BTW, I hope I'm not coming across overly negative about your room acoustics. I mention it only because it's the only weak link I could detect in an otherwise 'perfect' system. In fact your room is far better than that of many audiophiles I know. I like the fact that you at least believe in carpet and curtains - and a large leather sofa.

Edited by Art Vandelay, 18 July 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[zipstartcanoe]

I'd resoundingly endorse the OP's comments. I listened to half a dozen "hi-end" digital sources in my system in the $15k to $50k range and the MSB Signature was the only one that stayed - simply exemplary performance. I have since had a few other renowned, but more ummmmm....."bespoke" digital sources in my system and they all end up in the "vastly over hyped" category.

[Grimmie]

Ah yes, the Platinum IV was superb in my sysem too. What a curse is lack of disposable wealth. Note I didn't blame the nearest and dearest. I did not have enough time to really assess the finer points but it truly did sound 'just right'

[Currawong]

I'd resoundingly endorse the OP's comments. I listened to half a dozen "hi-end" digital sources in my system in the $15k to $50k range and the MSB Signature was the only one that stayed - simply exemplary performance. I have since had a few other renowned, but more ummmmm....."bespoke" digital sources in my system and they all end up in the "vastly over hyped" category.

More info! I'm curious to know what digital sources didn't cut it, as I'm in the position I fear eventually I may want to take a serious step up from where I am.

[bzr]

I too recommend the MSB dac, they are a very revealing dac of all information from the source fed into them. I've lived with the Signature for 3 mths & now the Diamond, an absolute gem. Also the pre capabilities were something I was looking for as well, very happy camper when I got the synergy in my system right. I do not have SGR gear at this time & haven't heard it yet.

Edited by bzr, 18 July 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[Art Vandelay]

I'd resoundingly endorse the OP's comments. I listened to half a dozen "hi-end" digital sources in my system in the $15k to $50k range and the MSB Signature was the only one that stayed - simply exemplary performance. I have since had a few other renowned, but more ummmmm....."bespoke" digital sources in my system and they all end up in the "vastly over hyped" category.

That's exactly the type of response I was expecting. > $15k is a substantial outlay on a dac but my ears tell me that MSB are about 10 years ahead of the pack and as their products are upgradable it becomes a justifiable and worthwhile investment.

Edited by Art Vandelay, 18 July 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Art Vandelay]

I too recommend the MSB dac, they are a very revealing dac of all information from the source fed into them. I've lived with the Signature for 3 mths & now the Diamond, an absolute gem. Also the pre capabilities were something I was looking for as well, very happy camper when I got the synergy in my system right. I do not have SGR gear at this time & haven't heard it yet.

I can fully endorse SGR. Their amplifier and speaker systems are right up there with the best available at any price.

[bzr]

I can fully endorse SGR. Their amplifier and speaker systems are right up there with the best available at any price.

Your's are not the first words I've read saying the same. I've had a few conversations with Stuart, will pay him a visit next time I'm in Melbourne

[Nada]

how do those who like the MSB sound respond to this kind of comment "MSB products always seemed overly clinical" ?

Edited by Nada, 18 July 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Art Vandelay]

how do those who like the MSB sound respond to this kind of comment "MSB products always seemed overly clinical" ?

To my ears the Signature DAC IV didn't have a specific sonic signature, although i'm sure if I lived with it for long enough I would eventually identify one, but if 'clinical' implies cold or lacking vitality or simply 'boring' then the MSB is definitely not 'clinical'.

[Grimmie]

how do those who like the MSB sound respond to this kind of comment "MSB products always seemed overly clinical" ?

No, that's not what I heard. I guess 'overly clinical' is a put-down that suggests it has has an uninvolving, bare and stark sound. Surely only those who love the most extreme sickly, syrupy, bloated valve distortion could say that with conviction.
In my system it was as detailed and superbly accurate as all it's admirers have claimed, but I also loved the dynamic and exciting way it delivered music with atmosphere and passion in the sound

[zipstartcanoe]

I've had big PDX fan tell me that they "almost got cut in half" listening to an MSB DAC - strange thing is, I have never had anyone comment on mine being harsh in anyway. Each to their own I guess.

[maximus]

I had the pleasure recently of hearing the MSB Signature DACIV (in a SGR system)
The system was really outstanding and actually better in many respects than a B&W 800 Diamond / Krell (600e) / Berkeley Alpha system I also recently heard.

The outstanding quality of the SGR / MSB system was the realistic delivery of mucical transients. I’ve heard many high-end digital front end systems over the years but none of them have quite got the transient attack and decay completely correct. I can only put this recent experience down to the MSB DAC which really does appear to live up to all the hype. Not only were transients rendered naturally but there was not a trace of any digital artifact, including grain, glare or hardness, nor was there any artificial smoothing, cream or sweetness. Best of all, i was able to listen at high levels without suffereing any listener fatigue. It was simply perfect and the closest thing to real (live) that I’ve heard. And all this was acheived with 16/44 source material. Unfortunately the listening room did limit the LF accuracy as well as constrain the image width but not sufficiently the rob the system of its magic or reduce the wealth of detail.

I had been looking at the Berkeley Alpha 2 which is a very fine converter but after hearing the MSB Signature DAC I’ve had to reevaluate the DAC budget. There really was no comparison.

I would be interested to hear comments / thoughts from other SNA members who have heard MSB DACIV based systems. Did you also hear what I heard?

I too was fortunate enough to hear the MT3F's via an MSB dac, not sure which one though. Took little notice of the front end as was easily distracted by the incredible sound pouring out of the MT3F's. They are really incredible speakers and fully agree with the presentation Art experienced.

As good as the MSB might be, I personally believe a high quality front end, be it MSB, Audio GD ref 7, Perfect wave, AMR, Aye QB9 etc etc would still have the same effect as I witnessed when I later auditioned my own CD/DAC/PRE not through the MT3F's but straight into the cheaper CX3B book shelf's.
Similar affect but obviously on a smaller scale. Off topic...but all the SGR range truly amazing.

Cheers Frank.

[bzr]

Being someone that has the MSB Diamond DAC IV, I have come to the opinion that no matter what the make or model of your equipment, if you don't practice restraint & make sure that said piece of gear has a synergy in your system, even the most outrageously expensive piece of gear will sound like **** if it is not a good match with the overall sum of the parts.
I took my MSB dac to the importers of Magtech & Magnepan shop, where it was fed straight into a Sanders Magtech & then onto the Maggie 3.7's, cabling was ZenSati in a well treated room. The sound was almost identical to what I had at home with my Magtech, Martin Logan Summit X's, all cables Wire World Silver Eclipse 6. That sound could be described as "overly critical", to me it's a bad choice of components that ended with a dry solid state signature. Both the proprietor & I agreed it didn't sound the best so we took out the Sanders Magtech & hooked the MSB S200 up, it was an "oh my" moment. The source was my MBPro into the dac with bitperfect, the same result with hi-res using Vox, speakers disappeared!!!

[Nada]

Being someone that has the MSB Diamond DAC IV, I have come to the opinion that no matter what the make or model of your equipment, if you don't practice restraint & make sure that said piece of gear has a synergy in your system, even the most outrageously expensive piece of gear will sound like **** if it is not a good match with the overall sum of the parts.
I took my MSB dac to the importers of Magtech & Magnepan shop, where it was fed straight into a Sanders Magtech & then onto the Maggie 3.7's, cabling was ZenSati in a well treated room. The sound was almost identical to what I had at home with my Magtech, Martin Logan Summit X's, all cables Wire World Silver Eclipse 6. That sound could be described as "overly critical", to me it's a bad choice of components that ended with a dry solid state signature. Both the proprietor & I agreed it didn't sound the best so we took out the Sanders Magtech & hooked the MSB S200 up, it was an "oh my" moment. The source was my MBPro into the dac with bitperfect, the same result with hi-res using Vox, speakers disappeared!!!

Well that's a great piece of feedback. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if the MSB amps are voiced to be "warm" in signature to balance the DAC sound signature? A bit like the Lenehan PDX DAC sounding best with Lenehan speakers ie they are designed for each other?

So Im left questioning if the MSB house sound in their DACs has been voiced on the lean and analytical side? There are just so many comments from reviewers and users that the MSB DACs had heaps of detail but left the listener "cold"? With so many reports from different users with different systems it helps take the different system influences out of the equation.

This would also explain why MSB have released the "Analogue" DAC this month, that seems like quite a departure from the past line of DAC's, which I guess will now have to be called the "Digital Series". From MSB:

"So you will love the natural sound of the Analog DAC. You will love the lack of digital harshness. You will think you are listening to an analog source."

I think MSB have a state of the art DAC chip, that they presumably use in both lines, so I guess its all in the analogue output design that the sound signature really happens?

Edited by Nada, 19 July 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[JohnA]

Being someone that has the MSB Diamond DAC IV, I have come to the opinion that no matter what the make or model of your equipment, if you don't practice restraint & make sure that said piece of gear has a synergy in your system, even the most outrageously expensive piece of gear will sound like **** if it is not a good match with the overall sum of the parts.
I took my MSB dac to the importers of Magtech & Magnepan shop, where it was fed straight into a Sanders Magtech & then onto the Maggie 3.7's, cabling was ZenSati in a well treated room. The sound was almost identical to what I had at home with my Magtech, Martin Logan Summit X's, all cables Wire World Silver Eclipse 6. That sound could be described as "overly critical", to me it's a bad choice of components that ended with a dry solid state signature. Both the proprietor & I agreed it didn't sound the best so we took out the Sanders Magtech & hooked the MSB S200 up, it was an "oh my" moment. The source was my MBPro into the dac with bitperfect, the same result with hi-res using Vox, speakers disappeared!!!

and this my friends is why you dont purchase on reviews alone, good or bad.
Try at home first if you can. When spending this amount of money, no 5 minute audition at a store is going to cut it.
you want some time with it at home to make up your own mind.
If you cant try at home, look at an alternative option because $13k is not a small gamble to take

[O.Sydney]

I take it your referring to Mcleans? I'm familiar with the room (which is great for auditions), the Magtech and the speakers with those cables.
Also have similar taste in "sound type" as Bill so this IS great feedback.

thank you

Being someone that has the MSB Diamond DAC IV, I have come to the opinion that no matter what the make or model of your equipment, if you don't practice restraint & make sure that said piece of gear has a synergy in your system, even the most outrageously expensive piece of gear will sound like **** if it is not a good match with the overall sum of the parts.
I took my MSB dac to the importers of Magtech & Magnepan shop, where it was fed straight into a Sanders Magtech & then onto the Maggie 3.7's, cabling was ZenSati in a well treated room. The sound was almost identical to what I had at home with my Magtech, Martin Logan Summit X's, all cables Wire World Silver Eclipse 6. That sound could be described as "overly critical", to me it's a bad choice of components that ended with a dry solid state signature. Both the proprietor & I agreed it didn't sound the best so we took out the Sanders Magtech & hooked the MSB S200 up, it was an "oh my" moment. The source was my MBPro into the dac with bitperfect, the same result with hi-res using Vox, speakers disappeared!!!

[Young Skywalker]

I think MSB have a state of the art DAC chip, that they presumably use in both lines, so I guess its all in the analogue output design that the sound signature really happens?

MSB Technology do not use chips like the vast majority of manufacturers. They use discrete Sign Magnitude Ladder DAC modules using matched resistors of crazy tolerance levels, which goes some way to explaining the asking price. One might also note that there is no output stage using active devices, i.e. the DAC modules (two per channel) drive the outputs directly for the most transparent sound.

MSB's new model, the Analog DAC is a more affordable solution which falls short of the Platinum Series in terms of ultimate resolution and is limited in terms of its upgradability. The emphasis with this product is on time-domain performance and, according to those in the know, the sonic result reflects these design choices. One must choose from the range based on a number of factors including budget, future plans, and sonic priorities.

Quite often a highly resolving component with very little sonic signature will go into a system and subsequently highlight issues elsewhere which were previously masked by some other colouration. Some call this a bad thing while others will see it as unlocking the door to further potential improvement. There is an old saying in audio which may be of some relevance here: "don't shoot the messenger". I often wonder how one is in a position to critically evaluate the reproduction of upper frequencies when most untreated rooms have serious issues with flutter echo and ringing, at least beyond a certain SPL.

The MSB amplifiers operate in Class A and use no negative feedback, somewhat of a rarity? This may give them an "identifiable" sonic signature and, based on the feedback we have received to date, that may just be the sound of straight wire with gain, at least compared to most other amplifiers on the market, even some of the best engineered examples like the Sanders' Magtech.

Edited by Young Skywalker, 19 July 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Metrik]

MSB's new model, the Analog DAC is a more affordable solution

That's what I thought as well. But once you have added three digital inputs, volume control and an upgraded power supply, you are in the Platinum price region again. Still not exactly a bargain.

[Art Vandelay]

MSB Technology do not use chips like the vast majority of manufacturers. They use discrete Sign Magnitude Ladder DAC modules using matched resistors of crazy tolerance levels, which goes some way to explaining the asking price. One might also note that there is no output stage using active devices, i.e. the DAC modules (two per channel) drive the outputs directly for the most transparent sound.

That would explain the range of opinion. IOW, if the rest of your system is very high class the MSB will simply provide a transparent window to the recorded source. MSB DACS are obviously not designed to round the edges, smooth the cracks or varnish the surface but neither will they add any of the know negative qualities associated with PCM.
I really felt that the 16/44 discs played via the MSB transport / Signatrure DAC - and through your SGR system was the closest thing to perfect vinyl that I've heard from any digital source,

[Nada]

unsubscribed

Edited by Nada, 19 July 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[Art Vandelay]

Do you mean the dry sound signature commonly commented on from MSB DACs is caused by the lack on an effective analogue output stage?

How does the MSB DA module output a voltage signal? Does it rely on just a resister driven passive I/V conversion?

You should really listen and hear for yourself before jumping to conclusions. Similarly those technical questions can be answered with a bit of research.

[rantan]

You should really listen and hear for yourself before jumping to conclusions. Similarly those technical questions can be answered with a bit of research.

Very good advice Art. You had the good grace and good sense to actually listen before passing comment..................a practice I would commend to those in this thread seeking a reaction [ aka trolling ]

[bzr]

Anyone is welcome to listen to my set-up in the Hunter Valley, give Cameron Pope a hoy as he's coming to hear it properly soon.

[bzr]

I take it your referring to Mcleans? I'm familiar with the room (which is great for auditions), the Magtech and the speakers with those cables.
Also have similar taste in "sound type" as Bill so this IS great feedback.

thank you

...that would be Bill's place, uh huh.

[Art Vandelay]

Very good advice Art. You had the good grace and good sense to actually listen before passing comment..................a practice I would commend to those in this thread seeking a reaction [ aka trolling ]

I’m sure I’ve been guilty at times too Rant - in this world of internet scuttlebutt and misinformation, it’s all too easy to ride with the perceived consensus of opinion.
It’s OK to read what you believe but not always wise to believe everything you read.

Edited by Art Vandelay, 19 July 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[rantan]

Very True Art.

We are all subjective about this hobby and God only knows I have been wrong many times and in the long run, not believing everything one reads is one of my tenets of understanding. However, in this thread there is evidence of deliberately loaded questions which are not necessary or helpful, especially when you actually listened and formed an honest opinion and the person asking the questions appears not to have done so

[Nada]

unsubscribed

Edited by Nada, 19 July 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Art Vandelay]

I actually have listened to a current quality MSB DAC feeding SGR speakers myself.

Feel free to provide your personal view. It's precisely the question I posed in the last sentence of my opening post.

I wasnt actually asking you about technical questions. I was asking Skywalker who I respect for his depth of understanding and who has given me excellent advice before.

However I would like to remind you of the forum guidelines you have presumably agreed to at some point like the rest of us in order to be able to post:

Try to be helpful to other members- No 'use the search button' or 'use google' type posts will be tolerated. Moderators will delete such posts and issue warnings to Members at their discretion. If you want to help another member perhaps less knowledgeable or possibly new to internet use then do a search yourself and post the relevant link to information to assist the member.

Yes, I would hope that any transgression of the guidelines is appropriately dealt with.
I would also hope that we can communicate with civility, respect and common courtesy.

[rantan]

I actually have listened to a current quality MSB DAC feeding SGR speakers myself.



I wasnt actually asking you about technical questions. I was asking Skywalker who I respect for his depth of understanding and who has given me excellent advice before.

However I would like to remind you of the forum guidelines you have presumably agreed to at some point like the rest of us in order to be able to post:

Try to be helpful to other members- No 'use the search button' or 'use google' type posts will be tolerated. Moderators will delete such posts and issue warnings to Members at their discretion. If you want to help another member perhaps less knowledgeable or possibly new to internet use then do a search yourself and post the relevant link to information to assist the member.

Edit: so Ive spent a good 30 mins trying to understand how the MSB DAC module puts out a voltage signal and I dont get it. If you know please help. Thanks.

This would be the largest parcel of written hypocrisy I have ever read on the forum.

I regret needing to be so blunt, but the intent was painfully obvious from the outset, despite the disingenuous efforts to obscure it.

Edited by rantan, 19 July 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[kajak12]

The MSB amplifiers operate in Class A and use no negative feedback, somewhat of a rarity? This may give them an "identifiable" sonic signature and, based on the feedback we have received to date, that may just be the sound of straight wire with gain, at least compared to most other amplifiers on the market, even some of the best engineered examples like the Sanders' Magtech.

Interesting i can use 5 different wires from amp to speakers and change the sound i wonder which is the msb wire that is claimed to be straight wire with gain?
No such thing as straight wire with gain just a sales gimmick feeding the uneducated imho

[Nada]

unsubsribed

Edited by Nada, 19 July 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[rantan]

YES.

I am sure.

Also, this isn't personal and I have no wish to make it thus.

[Nada]

Feel free to provide your personal view. It's precisely the question I posed in the last sentence of my opening post.

The MSB DAC wasnt mine. I only heard it on two occasions for perhaps five hours in total. So I wouldnt consider my opinion worth mentioning. It would only reflect my own inexperience.

What I find interesting is that some listeners obviously find the MSB incredible but on the other hand I the majority of people I know and have heard it are left cold.

I find that fascinating and would like to understand why. I think that's a really interesting question.

Im sorry if Ive offended anyone with my writing style.

I think I can be very blunt with Skywalker since we have PM'ed before so he knows I highly appreciate his opinion and because hes a professional and much higher standards are expected of such a member of the trade in this forum.

[Art Vandelay]

(..................................................)

Edited by Art Vandelay, 19 July 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[rantan]

*******

Edited by rantan, 19 July 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Art Vandelay]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Edited by Art Vandelay, 19 July 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[proftournesol]

Listen carefully guys. we are talking about an electronic machine that some people can buy to help them enjoy listening to music. It isn't life and death, it isn't a great moral issue. If we can't discuss it in a cordial way then the thread will be closed and those 'don't get it' will receive warnings.

[rantan]

For whatever part I may have contributed, which led to this unfortunate situation, I sincerely apologise to all.

It was a poor execution of judgement on my part and not in the spirit of the forum as a whole.

Edited by rantan, 19 July 2012 - 07:40 PM.