36 replies to this topic

[Sub Sonic]

Just wondering what people recommend for FR drivers? I'm thinking about doing a pair of speakers with zero XO, size not important, price, just not esoteric :-) Imaging is important, mids/highs are important, can compromise on the bass if need be. Reasonable SPL would be needed, but not ultra loud.
High sensitivity would be a bonus, and cabinets would be home made, so any design within reason is OK.

Any suggestions are welcome!

Thanks,

SS

[Full Range]

High sensitivity and full range speakers go hand in hand
There is ample " accurate bass " produced with most 8 inch or larger driver, however as a rule of thumb the larger the cabinet the more bass is produced

I have used in the past several brands of speakers
I now have Audio Nirvana speakers
This is the build thread - http://www.stereo.ne...io +full +range

[Upfront]

I'm currently running a pair of lowther DX2 in my 204hz azurahorns. An open baffle type set up. Very happy with them so far. Bought the lowthers of audiogon at a decent price. The fostex 206 I had before were nice too. A little shouty but a very good introduction to the seductive world of DIY fullrange

[Upfront]

http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/
I've always wanted to try these but have never had an amp that will drive them.

[Upfront]

 ImageUploadedByTapatalk1342323013.208846.jpg   95.33K   4 downloads
I'm sure there is someone here that has had a listen to these. From the photos they look well built and the price is reasonable.

[atilsley]

This is my area of some expertise.

When you say, no exotica...I assume you mean Feastrex, Vitavox etc.

From $1,000/pair and up, you can enjoy Lowther....the quintessential full-range driver designed by UK guru, Paul Voight. Even the entry level PM6C is great, when combined in the right cabinet.

My entry level Lowther pic would be the PM2C.

For the $300-$500, Fostex 206E, Visaton 200B are fantastic choices. Soundlabs Group here in Sydney offer Visaton...and there's a mob in Sydney who distribute Fostex.

Below this range, Audio Nirvana provide flexible choices as well.

I've built many horns, including Lowther Medallian, Carfrae Little Big Horn (I am a sole licensed builder for Jim Carfrae), Lowther (Ketil Parow) Big Fun Horn, Fostex BK16...plus my own designs, Petite 8.0 and the signature http://www.avhub.com.au/index.php/News/Hi-Fi/New-C-Horn-Released.html.

There's plenty of kits out there, plus good advice. Good web sites, eg Full range driver, Dave's Planet 10 (DIY Audio), Audio Asylum etc.

For front-loaded horns, try Azura(from here in Australia), Orisetc....but you'll need separate subs for these....still, you could use plate amps with built in x-overs to avoid complexity.

Best to get a good size bass horn to get the best out of your drivers.

With a nice 300B SET amp, and a quality driver/horn, you'll make wonderful music.

Cheers.

Andrew

[henry218]

put it simply Fullrange is for midrange lover.

ive tried jx92s, ma alpair and beyma coax (not true fullrange but its a point source)
jx92s and alpair10 are very similar, in terms of cones since mark audio was doing oem for jordan awhile ago.

jx92s will need bsc unless u place them against the wall.
alpair10 absolutely no need of bsc as it was incorporated in the freq response.

ideally fullranger can be the best midrange driver, and use bass augmentation to make them special.
fullrange alone prob can be very satisfying for 90db listening.

cheers
henry

[Sub Sonic]

Thanks for the replies and the many suggestions.

There are some very interesting drivers out there.There are many that I found interesting but one thing that I concluded was that 'esoteric' has a different price range when comparing full range drivers to standard drivers! The Feastrex looked extremely interesting although after having a look through the site I didn't bother looking for prices...

Some of the Lowther, Fostex and Jordan drivers looked interesting, but there are still a number of suggestions that I hben't yet looked at, more homework to do. Is there a particular type of cabinet that helps FR to sound most natural, or is it very driver dependent?

Regards,

SS

[Full Range]

Cabinet design will ultimately be based on the size of cabinet you can fit in your room
As mentioned in an above post I had some Lowthers and loved them

[atilsley]

Cabinet design will ultimately be based on the size of cabinet you can fit in your room
As mentioned in an above post I had some Lowthers and loved them

Agreed. You can't beat physics when it comes to horns.

The best bass I got was with the Ketil Parow Big Fun horn, as this uses true corner loading in the design. The cabinet weighed over 100Kgs each. Wonderful sound though...as the bass extends well to 35Hz...which is wonderful for one driver. But the bass is very rich and 'rumbly.'

[Paul Spencer]

I was looking at Audio Nirvana recently. They look beautifully made. The top end sits up a bit due to the whizzer cone and this demands some kind taming, if not from the electronics, then from toe in or the "crossover." The cast 10" ferrite looks like a sweet spot in terms of price, box size and overall performance.

Cabinet - that will depend to a degree on the driver in question. AN are intended for bass reflex and they recommend those over horns. Others are designed with parameters that lead to back loaded horns. Some of the bigger AN drivers have a high Qts which means a huge vented box or open baffle.

[atilsley]

I was looking at Audio Nirvana recently. They look beautifully made. The top end sits up a bit due to the whizzer cone and this demands some kind taming, if not from the electronics, then from toe in or the "crossover." The cast 10" ferrite looks like a sweet spot in terms of price, box size and overall performance.

Cabinet - that will depend to a degree on the driver in question. AN are intended for bass reflex and they recommend those over horns. Others are designed with parameters that lead to back loaded horns. Some of the bigger AN drivers have a high Qts which means a huge vented box or open baffle.

I'm with you, Paul...the 10 inch is good...and one forum member here has the larger 15 inch version....certainly up there in the bang-for-bucks award.

With either, your build will be easier if you didn't have a horn.

BUT...there is something special about horns, IMHO.....

Cheers.

[Full Range]

I'm with you, Paul...the 10 inch is good...and one forum member here has the larger 15 inch version....certainly up there in the bang-for-bucks award.

With either, your build will be easier if you didn't have a horn.

BUT...there is something special about horns, IMHO.....

Cheers.

For my Audio Nirvana build I used both 10" cast and 15" cast drivers
The build serves 2 purposes
The larger Drivers and cabinets are for music listening
The 10" drivers are used for surround sound duties as addition the the 15" drivers

Very happy with the results

[atilsley]

For my Audio Nirvana build I used both 10" cast and 15" cast drivers
The build serves 2 purposes
The larger Drivers and cabinets are for music listening
The 10" drivers are used for surround sound duties as addition the the 15" drivers

Very happy with the results

While I don't mix my two-channel audio with HT, I fully appreciate where you're coming from.

Some time back, I had some spare Fostex drivers lying around. For Home Theatre, they were utterly fantastic. It's about the speed of the driver to give the best audio impact...and this comes into its own for home theatre.

I reckon someone should build five lovely cubes with a nice 8-inch FR driver for a great HT pack. VAF have something like this...but using mroe ocnventional drivers.

[Full Range]

While I don't mix my two-channel audio with HT, I fully appreciate where you're coming from.

Some time back, I had some spare Fostex drivers lying around. For Home Theater, they were utterly fantastic. It's about the speed of the driver to give the best audio impact...and this comes into its own for home theater.

I reckon someone should build five lovely cubes with a nice 8-inch FR driver for a great HT pack. VAF have something like this...but using more conventional drivers.

I did just that with the Lowthers for a 7.1 system

[planet10]

Lots of good FRs (as pointed out already, a bit of a misnomer, the best are reaching 9 octavesm but then not many multiways go beyond that). So many that it is often hard to choose from the riches.

The price you pay is usually ultimate volume and dynamics. You can get dynamics, but you pay some other price. No multi-way i have yet heard can match the seemlessness of a good FR.

I've heard many FRs, probably a lot more than most people, but still only a small sampling of what is available.

My personal preference is for smaller drivers, as they do the critical midrange better. And they are fairly easily turned into true 10 octaves with helper woofers. My top 3 favorites at the moment are Mark Audio Alpair 7.3, CSS EL70 (made by Mark Audio, getting kind of rare) and Fostex FF85wk (definitely bass shy), these are at their best once i've done my tricks to them.. Lots of other contenders thou. Alpair 10.2 (the multiformed cones take these far ahead of the Jordans, earlier MA were much closer), the new paper cone Alpair 12.2p, the Fostex FF125wk, FF165wk, Tangband W5-1611, the Visaton B200. Note that none of those are overly efficient. Fostex FE126 is efficient for a small driver, but i'd only live with it after treatment, same with the larger FExx6 -- they in one of the big double mouth horns can get seriously dynamic. None of these are exotic, and even the pricey ones cheap compared to a lowther.

I've only heard stamped basket Audio Nirvanas and they were all under whelming. I understand that at least the 12" stamped is no longer with us.

Do note that i haven't yet found a driver that doesn't benefit from treatment, so keep that in mind with my preferences above.

I'm partial to my own designs, where quality of bass is a priority over quantity. They also tend towards compact sizes. The Woden boxes (both the free ones & the paid) have proven good, and we recently just built the Bob Brines Alpair10 ML-TL and it is no slouch. Frugel-Horn Mk3 is also a favorite and a real gem for someone who wants to play with different drivers as it is one of the few boxes that readily acoomodates quite a few (and regularily elicits the phrase, " it is hard to believe that it is a 4" driver making that bass".

The diyAudio FullRange forum is where you will find the largest quantity of information, and to add to that the best boxes for FR drivers are all DIY.

dave

Edited by planet10, 16 July 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[planet10]

I was looking at Audio Nirvana recently. They look beautifully made. The top end sits up a bit due to the whizzer cone and this demands some kind taming, if not from the electronics, then from toe in or the "crossover." The cast 10" ferrite looks like a sweet spot in terms of price, box size and overall performance.

The Cast 8, Cast 10, and Cast 15 seem to get the most accolades. I did a box for the AN10CF (70 litres), beta testers were happy, bass was no deeper than some of the 4" and they are definitly tipped up. The 15 has a very large Vas and low Q so needs a very big box (my "small" box is some 600 litres) but does get into the 20s. Should be quite dynamic. I haven't heard any of these, but i do worry about the larger cones lossing control (Silver Iris 15 was terrible in this respect (even after it got a lot better with treatment), and the Eminence 12LTA not far behind)

dave

[THOMO]

The best full range driver is not one.
It is a vintage Tannoy Dual Concentric.
They give the point source but have far better frequency extremes.

The HPD 315 would be a good starting point for around $1000.This would incude crossovers.

[Sub Sonic]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I already have a pair of Vaf i90s, which also happen to be dual concentric, although 6" in size. I love the point source idea, and have tried cheap FR drivers in the past (Audax 3" & 4") but was looking at something a little better than the Audax. I also tried a pair of Voight pipes with the 4" but got it wrong :-)

For some reason the FR with no XO appeals to me, perhaps it is the simplicity, leaving one to only think about the music...

Regards,

SS

[zanlation]

I recently built full range speakers with the Mark Audio Alpair 10.2 and 7.3's. My pick is the smaller 7.3s. The 7.3 in the Pensil design sounds to my ears and the wife's (the ultimate critic of anything I build) simply amazing. I am a convert full range fan after building the Pensil and mar-ken designs. I built them originally to avoid XOs, but I now have no desire to build anything else... just more fullrangers!

You will need a subwoofer for movies, but for music the Pensils do impress and give sufficient bass.

Edited by zanlation, 16 July 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Sub Sonic]

I just had a look online at the Mark Audio's and came across a mention of an OB arrangement. Would this be a good thing to try with full rangers? I know it would need a woofer and so start to stray from the FR idea, but has anyone tried it?

SS

[Upfront]

They would be simple to build. Great place to start

[Arg]

Hi SS, you haven't really said whether you want to use it full range i.e. as a sole driver. I think you do, because you said no crossover (which eliminates the coaxials like Tannoy). If yes, tehn you are looking at best bet a 7" to 8" driver.

Also is high efficiency a major factor for you? It makes it harder -- or rather, narrows the choices, if you need high efficiency.

[Sub Sonic]

Hi Arg,

The sensitivity of the drivers is not really an issue as they will be driven by solid state amps between 30 and 50 watts (I'd love to have a tube amp one day though!) and my listening levels are not huge. I place a high importance on musical enjoyment, being able to forget the system is there. Music tastes vary, but I like classical, instrumental, guitar, and high quality recordings. I rarely listen to "modern" music, the closest I get is perhaps Roxette and some 80's music, but even that fairly rarely.
I also enjoy pipe organ!!! But I'm not looking at these speakers to give a realistic rendition of that :-)

The idea was full range with no XO although I may consider using a sub or pair of subs to fill in the bottom end.

Regards,

SS

[tassie tiger]

My vote goes to FE206en with treatment by Dave at Planet10 fitted in Ron's Dallas2 enclosures. Sure the Dallas 2 takes a bit of work to build, but the combination (of driver + cabinets) is a great all-rounder and IMO has a good balance of price and performance. Total build cost of about Aus$600-700 depending on cabinet quality.
Good for your type of music I think.

TT

[planet10]

I just had a look online at the Mark Audio's and came across a mention of an OB arrangement. Would this be a good thing to try with full rangers? I know it would need a woofer and so start to stray from the FR idea, but has anyone tried it?

SS

It seems people either like what an OB does and some don't. I keep trying but haven't done one i can live with yet.

dave

[Sub Sonic]

Thanks Dave,

I might try a basic OB with some small drivers I have at home and then make a decision from there.

Cheers!

SS

[Upfront]

Photos are a must mate

[andyr]

Hi Arg,

The sensitivity of the drivers is not really an issue as they will be driven by solid state amps between 30 and 50 watts

Regards,

SS

With a measly 30-50w available (into 8 ohms), I would've thought driver sensitivity certainly was a factor? My active Maggies use 100w on the bass drivers alone. (And 55w on the mid, and 25w on the ribbon.)

Regards,

Andy

[Sub Sonic]

My little Duntechs are 85dB sensitivity and I have yet to clip a 35 watter as my listening levels are not great :-)

[Upfront]

I'm currently running 500wpc for bass but a lowly 7wpc for fullrange lowthers. Even without the horns i have no problems with volume what so ever. Provided the correct driver is used and volume expected is reasonable, there shouldn't be a problem.

[atilsley]

I'm currently running 500wpc for bass but a lowly 7wpc for fullrange lowthers. Even without the horns i have no problems with volume what so ever. Provided the correct driver is used and volume expected is reasonable, there shouldn't be a problem.

Gotta love those numbers....

I had 300 watt BASH amp running an 8 foot tall tapped horn, coupled with a 3.5 watt 2A3 SET running Fostex 206E's....! I could have used a 1,000 watt amp for the bass and a 2 watt SET using 45 valves...still would have sounded glorious.

[Upfront]

It is a bit of a laugh. Im still surprised when I get "that look" after telling people the amount of power I get from the mono-blocks.

[planet10]

I might try a basic OB with some small drivers I have at home and then make a decision from there.

There are few drivers that do well all by themselves on an OB (if you want bass) unless the baffle is large. Vinatge drivers, Visaton B200. We did get fantastic performance from a pair of unonrainium Koream 6.5" designed for the purpose -- on a 16' wide bafflemind you.

More & more common isa FR as mid-tweeter and a big, highish Q woofer for the bottom (budget favorites are Goldwood 18" and Eminence Alpha 15)

dave

[Sub Sonic]

Thanks Dave.

I've been having a play with 4" drivers on a 400mm wide baffle simply because I had the parts and materials at home.
First up was an Audax HM100G0 (from memory, it runs flat up to around 10k but has a Q around 0.25), which I ended up adding tweeters to - straying from the original FR concept. Since I have yet to get a pc based measurement system I was tuning by ear, pretty difficult to do.
The tweeters were a 10mm Audax balanced drive unit, running two back to back on each side of the baffle, the front tweeter in phase and the back one out of phase. After playing around for a while I replaced the 100mm mid woofer with a Morel MW113, which has a much higher Q, around 0.75. This one sounded a better match and while far from perfect, the OB had a great depth to the image, the drivers tended to disappear.
Re. the woofers, I have 4 x 8" woofers designed for sealed enclosures. I think I might add them into the OB mix too. Again straying from FR!
All in all, I think the OB with FR drivers is worth pursuing once I get some good measuring gear. Not sure where to get chart paper and plotter pens for the old Neutrik tester. Might have to get inventive :-)

Edited by Sub Sonic, 21 July 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Upfront]

There are some iPhone based measuring apps you can download for free. Cheap and obviously not 100% accurate. But better than nothing.

[Antripodean]

I used some Alpair 10s in a BR, a pair in each cab, to get decent bass down to 40Hz. For me bass is always the challenge with FR drivers. I didn't get enough SPL for my typical listening (loud) but when I was listening at low volumes they did well. I'm selling them now in the classifieds here so they would be a good way to go FR