32 replies to this topic

[~Spyne~]

Hey all, after some confirmation or alternative suggestions on replacing my Oppo-DV980H.
I currently have the Oppo connected to a Cambridge 640A (v2) amplifier and Sammy PS51D8000 plasma TV.

The Oppo is used for DVD playback obviously, but it is also my only/primary CD/SACD source in my under-developed 2-channel set-up. Speakers are some Zaph SR-71 bookshelfs that are currently just in basic 18mm mdf cabinets, waiting for me to get the time/motivation to build some much more specific and better looking cabinets.

I've been searching around and because of budget restrictions (saving for a wedding, paying off car loan, renting and saving for house deposit, blah, blah, blah) I'm trying to find an all-in-one blu-ray player that will still deliver excellent picture quality and pretty good audio too.

Obviously there is the following;

• Oppo BDP-95: The reference AIO player with excellent PQ and very good SQ. Plays everything, including streaming digital media formats. A bit pricey at $1200-$1300 though.
  
• Cambridge 751BD: Another excellent unit, seems to fit between the Oppo BDP-93 and BDP-95. Excellent PQ and very good SQ, with a different DAC to the Oppo (slightly warmer/musical sound, less detail?). Still rather pricey at $1100-$1200.
  
• Oppo BDP-93: Excellent PQ and good SQ, not as good as either above though. Plays everything, including streaming digital media. Much better priced at $650.

Now an alternative I've been considering is

• Sony BDP-S790 + Schiit Bifrost or similar (Peachtree DAC-iT, Audio-GD 3.2) DAC: Reportedly excellent PQ (equal to or better than BDP-93), plays everything, has a fantastic streaming media interface and the best priced unit at just $350 (+ ~$400 for a nice entry-level DAC)

As much as I'd love either, the Oppo 95 and Cambridge units are just that few $hundred out of my ideal budget.
I've not had any experience with external DACs before and was wondering if people could give me some insight as to whether what I propose with the Sony+DAC will work/is a good idea/ will get me SQ comparable to the Oppo 95/Cambridge units (using digital from Sony to DAC)

I'm also interested to know if the blu-ray player is connected to the TV via HDMI, which is connected to the amplifier via RCA, how does the amplifier 'know' to take the digital audio signal from the DAC rather than the analogue audio signal from the TV? (or does audio not transmit via the HDMI between the source and TV?)

Also, another 'dumb' question:
What is the difference between optical digital and coaxial digital, and which should be used?


Thanks,
Adam

[surprisetech]

There's a 751BD in the For Sale section at present.

[~Spyne~]

I know, and it has me tempted to a degree...Still a couple $hundred more than the Sony+DAC option.


I should also point out that for the vast majority of FTA TV viewing, I just use the TV speakers. The amplifier+speakers really only come into play with DVD/Blu-Ray and CD playback.
I also stream media (music and video) from my PC, via Wi-Fi (DLNA)

[houdinifangs]

I used a Sony BRP with a couple entry DACs (Arcam rDac & Chameleon TeraDak) and there wasn't much difference compared to the onboard DAC. With my MAC running Audirvana the DACs outperformed the Sony but this only became really obvious after other system upgrades (speakers & amp). So depending on the BRP, the DAC and how detailed your system is; an entry DAC might not give you enough if the BRP was your primary transport. Perhaps get the BRP now and save for a nicer DAC down the line.

Or better still, get the BRP, forget the DAC and buy a turntable

[Quadophile]

After the pain of parting with your money, it's whats left on your shelf and what your listening to that counts.
I went the 751, replacing DVDP and Marantz 63SE into Musical Fidelity X10D, and have been TOTALLY wrapt.
Listening to it via Quad 303/34/57's. All the detail you could ever look for. And super musical too!
As Molly is back....he would say "Do yourself a favour"

[Craigandkim]

Obviously there is the following;

• Oppo BDP-95: The reference AIO player with excellent PQ and very good SQ. Plays everything, including streaming digital media formats. A bit pricey at $1200-$1300 though.
  
• Cambridge 751BD: Another excellent unit, seems to fit between the Oppo BDP-93 and BDP-95. Excellent PQ and very good SQ, with a different DAC to the Oppo (slightly warmer/musical sound, less detail?). Still rather pricey at $1100-$1200.
  
• Oppo BDP-93: Excellent PQ and good SQ, not as good as either above though. Plays everything, including streaming digital media. Much better priced at $650.

I wouldn't exactly say this- depends on your output- the 95 & 93 will have exactly the same SQ & PQ via HDMI, same SQ via coax/optical, only difference will be analogue output due to the DAC's & better power supply/ implementation etc.
Have a look at the UMC-1 for a cheap HDMI upgrade whilst maintaining your two channel- pick em up 2nd hand - save more.

[~Spyne~]

Well you wouldn't buy the 95 if you weren't going to make use of the Sabre DAC on the analogue outputs. So yes, the 95 has better SQ than the 93.

[Craigandkim]

Which is probably negated by the fact the 95 has a fan.

[~Spyne~]

Which is thermostat controlled. I live in Ballarat, it might turn on twice a year

[LHC]

Hi Spyne. I've been considering a similiar journey to you. Basically there is no ideal solution for those with a budget restriction. The BDP + DAC can work except that no standalone DAC can decode the HD audio from Blu-ray via HDMI (or DSD if you want to go down the paths of SACD). You really need a Pre/Pro or AVR for that purpose. (The new NAD products are heading towards a solution but they are not there yet and are still pricey for those on a budget).

The alternative is buy a good BDP that can do all the decoding, like the OPPO and Cambridge that you have identified, and use their analog output into your amplifier. The cheaper players worth considering are:

• Pioneer BDP-Lx55 (RRP $600, but can be had for $500 I believe)
  
• Panasonic BDT-DMP500 (not available in Australia)
  
• Sony S790 (street price $330?)

The Pioneer has great SQ and PQ, but has quite a few issues reported elsewhere in the web. I think a new model Lx-56 is coming out later this year with 4K capability, and may have resolved some of their earlier problems.

The Panasonic DMP500 seems like the ideal budget solution (apart from SACD). It is now the WHF Best Buy for players greater than 300GBP (yes, over the OPPO, Cambridge, Denon and Marantz). But when I called Panasonic Australia, they told me they have no plans to introduce it here, reason is that they believe there is no market for such a player!

Another interesting option is the Yamaha BD-A1010 RRP $699. I seem to recalled our local store (Denis White) were recently discounting them for $399. But when I checked their website http://www.deniswhit...ay-players.html now the price is back to RRP. May pay to give Denis a call and see what he can do for you.

Edited by LHC, 03 July 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[~Spyne~]

Thanks LHC. I was not aware of the limitations of sending HD audio over the different outputs.
So if the BDP was connected to the TV via HDMI, and also connected to the external DAC via RCA or coaxial (which is then connected to the amp and speaker), would the system not send the video to the TV and the audio to the DAC/amp?
If not, how does one get the best audio from say, a blu-ray live concert?

[Craigandkim]

Adam,

I'm not sure you will get the best from a new BDP with your current set-up. As LHC & I have suggested you'll need a pre/pro to get the HD audio at its best - even if its only two channel.

Heres one I prepared earlier:


I don't think an oppo or any other BDP can simultaneously output audio through HDMI and analogue. Happy to be corrected.

You want the best from the HD formats - keep it simple source - pre/pro - amp.

Edited by Craigandkim, 02 July 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[~Spyne~]

OK, I know I'm getting confused (simultaneously Googling for info, which is not helping me).
Sorry for being frustrating, but I really have no idea about the different audio formats, nor the limitations of the BDP outputs...

So there is no way to enjoy the benefits of a stereo-mix SACD without either getting a new amplifier that has HDMI-input or a pre-processor?
If I went with the Sony BDP-S790 > Bifrost > Cambridge 640A the only audio benefit I would be getting is on standard CD playback?

[Craigandkim]

Hey Adam,

a universal BDP will output stereo SACD through its analogue outputs- you have stereo inputs = all good.
a universal BDP could output stereo SACD through its coaxial outputs by first converting to PCM - Does your 640 have a coaxial input - No = all bad.

You could convert the stereo SACD to PCM and feed it to an external DAC- but why? Forget the separate DAC - what is the point?

Buying a new BDP will serve you no advantages over your 980- you can already do everything with the 980 bar play blu-rays.

If you want to experience blu-ray - yes buy a new BDP, however your existing set-up will not cater for the HD audio benefits- you'll be able to convert stereo HD audio to analogue but this means you'll need to connect to your TV via analogue component not HDMI.

You say you want to come into the 21st century by replacing the oppo- you'll also need to update your processing methodology.

Hope this helps

[:) al]

Which is thermostat controlled. I live in Ballarat, it might turn on twice a year

having owned a 95. the fan is probably the most annoying item on the machine ! there is no hdmi capable dac I know that can decode hd audio. apart from the nad m51 but it is out of budget !

so with a 2ch all analog setup. or running hdmi to the tv, I would suggest buy a bd/universal player with good analog capability. that is the cambridge 751 or oppo95. second hand if want to save some bucks.

if were not wanting universal replay. there are some other options eg the sony 5000es which might find a bit cheaper around $750 or so. but theyre rare as hens teeth !

another previous option might be the previous model oppo 83se again do pop up sometimes

[Arg]

Can I just confirm, Adam, you are looking for 2-channel audio, no more?

And when you say the Sony 'plays everything', you mean CD and DVD and 2-ch SACD and Bluray = 'everything'? 'cos at a quick glance I didn't see HDCD or DVD-A. And I'm suspicious that it might not do SACD 5.1.

[LHC]

OK, I know I'm getting confused (simultaneously Googling for info, which is not helping me).
Sorry for being frustrating, but I really have no idea about the different audio formats, nor the limitations of the BDP outputs...

So there is no way to enjoy the benefits of a stereo-mix SACD without either getting a new amplifier that has HDMI-input or a pre-processor?
If I went with the Sony BDP-S790 > Bifrost > Cambridge 640A the only audio benefit I would be getting is on standard CD playback?

The best natural connection you could do between BDP-S790 and the Bifrost DAC is via a coaxial digital cable. Unfortunately the best audio on a blu-ray disc generally requires you to use its HDMI output. The coaxial cable alone is unable to support this HD signal.

IF all you wanted is just 2 channel audio, then there is a cheap work-around by adding an extra device. You can read all the details here in this thread http://www.stereo.ne...eneric-2ch-dac/ (in this context what works for SACD also works for blu-ray)

The pre/pro is still the better choice if you could afford the cost and space for one. Plus there is a DAC build-in to the pre/pro so the Bifrost becomes redundant:
Sony BDP-S790 > Pre/Pro > Cambridge 640A.
It seems only Emotiva makes affordable pre/pro. This is a much forgotten segment of the market.

[~Spyne~]

Can I just confirm, Adam, you are looking for 2-channel audio, no more?

And when you say the Sony 'plays everything', you mean CD and DVD and 2-ch SACD and Bluray = 'everything'? 'cos at a quick glance I didn't see HDCD or DVD-A. And I'm suspicious that it might not do SACD 5.1.

Yep, only interested in 2ch audio at the moment. And correct on the second account, too.
The Atlona/Porta units look like they might assist, but buying an Emotiva UMC-1, rather than an Atlona/Bifrost combo, will be a better step or is it a lesser DAC and kind of overkill in my case since I'm only chasing 2.0 stereo sound at the moment?


Thanks for all the patience and help so far guys, much appreciated.

[Bus_Boy]

I'm going to keep an eye on this one. I'm after a BRP to make a noticeable PQ improvement, but sound wise i too am running external dacs, soon to be in multiple configuration.

It seems all the truly great players are equipped with excellent analog stages, who's catering to image only crowd? Possibly some Blu Ray transports are what we need, we will happily split all our other components, but when it comes to BRP's, it still seems like early days of the past where having everything in the one case is what the manafactuers think the consumers want / need.

[~Spyne~]

Ok, so
Sony BDP-S790 --> Emotiva UMC-1 via HDMI will send all audio signals to the Emotiva, which can decode anything currently on offer from all hi-res formats (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital True HD, Dolby PLIIx, DTS, DTSES, DTS HD, DTS Master Audio, DTS Neo 6, SPDIF, PCM 8 channel)
The Emotiva will then pass on the video signal to the TV via a HDMI connection, while the decoded audio signal will go from the Emotiva on to my Cambridge 640A amplifier via RCA cables?

This will give me the full benefit of hi-res audio formats playing through my amplifier (but only 2ch, not surround 5.1/7.1/etc)??


The other option is to buy an A/V receiver instead of the Emotiva, which could then either replace my 640A, or be used as just a pre/pro, correct?

Are there any A/Vs under $800 that would offer superior sound to the Emotiva/Cambridge combo?

[Chewbacker]

Hi

I beleive from the emotiva website that the internals on their UMC 1 and their pre/pro are the same so just go straight to the emo pro and then to your cambridge..

[~Spyne~]

The UMC-1 IS Emotiva's pre-pro.
It's being ran-out ahead of the release of their new XMC-1, which is more than twice the price.

[Craigandkim]

So...
are you now squared away with your direction ahead?

[Craigandkim]

having owned a 95. the fan is probably the most annoying item on the machine !

Funny you should mention that Al, I have friends in the ACT who despise the noise it makes- especially considering you buy it for the phenomenal S/N ratio, the increased DAC performance etc etc.

Edited by Craigandkim, 03 July 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[~Spyne~]

So...
are you now squared away with your direction ahead?

Thanks to yourself and others, I know the general direction I need to head in, but what gear will yield the best results within my budget...not so much, hence the two questions in my post above (#20)
Either the Emotiva, or some AVRs that I might be able to afford include the Yamaha RX-V871 from Eastwood Hi-Fi ($600 discount!), Denon AVR1912, Onkyo TX-NR609....Basically around the $700-$900 mark (not much, I know). Just don't know what would sound best.

Edited by ~Spyne~, 03 July 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Craigandkim]

Good stuff- does anyone know what will sound best (?)....welcome to the continual upgrade/sideways grade/downgrade of looking for sonic nirvana.

If you continually hypothesize without plunging in you're not going to know (have you auditioned anything yet?)- as you have discovered here, everyone has their own experiences and opinions.

PS: Here are some possible solutions to your 21st century upgrade crusade (if you want 2nd hand and blu-ray simplicity): have a squeek at all the for sale sections etc and be patient. Know your gear and the current prices and whats on sale at specific price points and read reviews- then audition a selection

http://www.dtvforum....howtopic=109091
http://www.dtvforum....howtopic=109951
http://www.stereo.ne...ntical-rx-v667/
http://www.ebay.com....6.c0.m270.l1313

No one here can tell you what to buy- merely suggestions you need to do the hard yards

Good luck

[~Spyne~]

Good stuff- does anyone know what will sound best (?)....welcome to the continual upgrade/sideways grade/downgrade of looking for sonic nirvana.
Well aware of the eternal struggle for sonic nirvana - been doing it for car audio (SQ) for over 7 years. Just dipping my toes into the easier world of home audio now.

If you continually hypothesize without plunging in you're not going to know (have you auditioned anything yet?)- as you have discovered here, everyone has their own experiences and opinions.
True, but what use is an internet forum aimed at in-home audio other than to serve as a place for like-minded or uneducated people to come and get opinions on what gear/set-ups might work best for their needs/budget?
No I have not auditioned anything yet, as until the last few days, I didn't know what gear was required in my situation.

PS: Here are some possible solutions to your 21st century upgrade crusade (if you want 2nd hand and blu-ray simplicity): have a squeek at all the for sale sections etc and be patient. Know your gear and the current prices and whats on sale at specific price points and read reviews- then audition a selection

http://www.dtvforum....howtopic=109091
http://www.dtvforum....howtopic=109951
http://www.stereo.ne...ntical-rx-v667/
http://www.ebay.com....6.c0.m270.l1313
Thanks, I'll keep my eye on eBay and the FS forum here as I usually do for anything that catches my interest now that I better understand what I am looking for.

No one here can tell you what to buy- merely suggestions you need to do the hard yards
As above; no, but they can offer suggestions based on my requirements and their own experiences or knowledge (which would hopefully be greater than my own at the curent time)

[mjs]

I don't think an oppo or any other BDP can simultaneously output audio through HDMI and analogue. Happy to be corrected.

Sorry to go back a few posts, but this is not correct. My Oppo95 feeds a Pio Kuro with HDMI and at the same time I take a 2ch analog feed to an ME25 Pre for 2ch audio playback .

On the matter of the fan in the 95, I have no problem with mine at all and I am super-sensitive to other noises, eg fan in La Cie thunderbolt external HDD attached to a Mac Mini - got the ar$e

Btw, I've still got an Oppo971!

Edited by mjs, 04 July 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[:) al]

http://www.stereo.ne...on-free-br-dvd/

not sure if saw the above, but that would be a decent option as well.

[Craigandkim]

Sorry to go back a few posts, but this is not correct. My Oppo95 feeds a Pio Kuro with HDMI and at the same time I take a 2ch analog feed to an ME25 Pre for 2ch audio playback .
On the matter of the fan in the 95, I have no problem with mine at all and I am super-sensitive to other noises, eg fan in La Cie thunderbolt external HDD attached to a Mac Mini - got the ar$e
Btw, I've still got an Oppo971!

Thats good to know...I have a 93 and could not work out how....Pg 67- have to turn off HDMI audio in menu

[agelessgoodguy]

If in Melbourne area, You can also try this outlet as they have a few AVR amps up for sale in the shop front that are known to do good things.....

JLS Electronics 17 Village Ave Doncaster (03) 9816 3113 just name your price first.

Oppo BDP 83 players are still very good value for money and can be had for less than $400.00 so why struggle with your decisions now? the path is clear.....

[Arg]

Adam, also consider that bluray machines are notorious for not being well set up logistically (not discussing sound quality here) for music playback. Some are worse than others but I don't know which models specifically -- others might be able to help.

Typical things I am talking about include:
-the disc might start playback automatically when inserted.
-the remote might not be configured so you get track 9 when pressing button 9, for example.
-no random play
-no repeat play
-no programme play
-different 'behaviour' when a different type of disc is inserted.

[~Spyne~]

Thanks guys. I think the route I'm going to take is to buy something a bit cheaper, like the Sony BDP-S790, which has had great reviews and tests for PQ (very comparable to the BDP-93, apparently) and then save a little for an AVR. This will handle all movie needs and will suffice for 2ch playback...for now.
Then keep my eye out for a good dedicated cd/sacd player at the right price. This way I'm not too heavily invested in the one unit if something goes wrong or technology changes.


Thanks for all the help.

Edited by ~Spyne~, 14 July 2012 - 11:46 PM.