113 replies to this topic

[ayou2]

I want the best future possible for all , going forward, thats why I am saying what Im saying.

The Unions killed the goose that lays the golden egg. By ratcheting up, in an almost non stop fashion, wages, conditions, allowances, entitlements etc etc, they force the cost of business in Australia through the roof.

Keeping with Ford as the example, how can they make cars at a price the public will pay, make a profit to stay in business and pay their workers at current rates ?

Its starting to transpire that is an impossibility. Plans are afoot to make the Falcon front wheel drive using an overseas made engine. If that doesnt work, Ford will very likely abandon Australia altogether.

Anyways, to answer your question about what sacrifices do I make for the sake of future generations. My hifi consists of a $50 CDP, amp swapped for a slab of Coopers and I lashed out on a $500 set of 2nd hand speakers.

I could afford a flash car, i drive an economical 4 cylinder Subaru non turbo model.

I golf with a set of hand me down clubs from my Father in law & i bought my golf pants at the Salvos, along with my rain jacket.

I could bore you with all my penny pinching but hopefully you get the idea.

Point is, I would like to be able to help my kids out financially if need be down the track. Hopefully they will be able to stand on their own two feet and I wont have to. Ill then be able to help those who need it more.

If i ever have a hifi that extends beyond $2k on my brag list, Ill have as much credibilty as Al (Ive reduced my carbon footprint by reducing my mansion portfolio from 7 to 6) Gore.

[JeffK]

They don't have any unions or collective bargaining in China. Lets go there.

[Orpheus]

If workchoices had been implemented all the job losses we are now seeing could have been avoided. Employers might have been able to renegotiate conditions to make them able to compete more with overseas rates.

It would have been a bitter pill, of that there is no doubt, but a job is better than no job.

Im sure i would not have been rapt about it if it was me on the receiving end, but i like to think i would have been realistic enough to see the writing on the wall and to also realise that if I was, for instance, on the assembly line at Ford, that i had it good for a long time, but that the best thing to do in the long run was to have a good hard look at the situation and swallow the pill.

And there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

[ayou2]

Yes that seems to be the common assumption amongst lefties, that the Libs were just out to opress the working man and help their big business buddies make more money.

However, no one, employer or employee, makes money out of a defunct business that cannot compete with overseas labour costs.

Im sure the guys who are laid off can all get good money now, unloading all the containers full of imported goods.

Edited by ayou2, 03 June 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[ayou2]

They don't have any unions or collective bargaining in China. Lets go there.

It will come to us soon enough, once we sell off all our once only resources.

[proftournesol]

It will come to us soon enough, once we sell off all our once only resources.

Agree! That's why 'business as usual' has bought Libs and the ALP, it doesn't matter who is in power, they are pulling the strings

[ayou2]

Agree! That's why 'business as usual' has bought Libs and the ALP, it doesn't matter who is in power, they are pulling the strings

China and India will outsource their banking and telecommunications needs to us.

"geeday maaateee, got a bonza new deal for you, save ya a bundle"

"pwease goway fankyou, my fly lice getting cold"

[MC240]

Yes that seems to be the common assumption amongst lefties, that the Libs were just out to opress the working man and help their big business buddies make more money.

However, no one, employer or employee, makes money out of a defunct business that cannot compete with overseas labour costs.

Im sure the guys who are laid off can all get good money now, unloading all the containers full of imported goods.

How's about you step up and do your bit AU2 walk into your employer's office tomorrow and demand he cut your wages so he can be that little bit more completive.

Edited by MC240, 03 June 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[ayou2]

My employer is one step ahead of you MC, performance based contract.

Whether it is actually my performance or not is irrelevant, he gets to pay me less when he makes less.

He still flys his helicopter around on weekends, so im assuming he isnt bleeding from the ears financially just yet.

Edited by ayou2, 03 June 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[ayou2]

If he approached me and said

"ayou2 we are coming unstuck financially, the wages are proving to be our biggest hurdle and im going to have to ask you and the rest of the staff to take a pay cut, hopefully temporary, but possibly long term. If you do, i can afford to keep everyone on and the business afloat. If not everyone volunteers, ill have to can the scheme and lay off 25% of the staff and hope that doesnt bring problems of it own effecting productivity. We have looked at other methods but this seems to be our only option, short of taking the business off shore or outsourcing alot of the work but that would have the same effect as lay offs anyway"

Id do it .... assuming he wasnt still tootling round in his helicopter and asking the above too.

[Young Skywalker]

However, no one, employer or employee, makes money out of a defunct business that cannot compete with overseas labour costs.

If you wish to compete with wages in a Third World labour market then be prepared to accept a Third World standard of living.

[MC240]

Well I can see your employer is doing his bit by cutting your contract based pay when he earns less.But really AU you should be doing you bit by offering to take a pay cut so Australia can become more completive with China.

Mate don't wait for your employer to come to you by that time its to late, step up mate step up.Don't wait until the rest of the staff get on board there is a principle at stake be a man amongst men AU take the 3rd world pay cut for Australia so your employer can be more competitive ..

Edited by MC240, 03 June 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[MC240]

Just geeing you up AU2

[JeffK]

I'd only do it if he wasn't flying his helicopter around.

[ayou2]

What i earn in my job i could earn the same, relative to cost of living, in other countries. The NSW guys earn more than me because their cost of living is higher. I have no problem with that.

A manufacturing worker, by comparison, is paid alot more here than other countries. Thats the imbalance that is at the heart of the problem.

My employer isnt under threat from imported goods, and the life of the business is not at stake, but ill consider your points if things change. If it ever comes down to 'a job is better than no job' .... Id have to bite the bullet wouldnt I.

[ayou2]

Just geeing you up AU2

I'd give you a piece of my mind MC, but I'm running a bit short

[davidsss]

Lots of talk about how greedy Australian workers are and how unions are now irrelevant and have driven wages up to an unsustainable level.

But, hey, it's the usual suspects posting without any research.

So, how are we to decide whether Australian workers are overpaid and how Australian companies are doing it tough because those pesky workers are earning too much? Well, how about this: as a share of GDP how are wages and profits going? Let's have a look.

Compensation of employees share of total factor income

 Wage Share.gif   3.18K   1 downloads

Hmm, not seeing much greed on the workers side there. We seem to have gone full circle but certainly wage earners have lost out over the last 30 years, so where is the money going I wonder?

Profits share of total factor income

 Profit Share.gif   2.98K   1 downloads

I see, looks like profits are doing very well actually.

All this bleating about how Australian workers are pushing companies too hard just seems to be hot air.

In fact, it looks like unions are more necessary than ever. Glad I'm a member. Union membership may have fallen (not as badly as membership of the Labor or Coalition parties) but Unions still represent millions of workers and the vast majority do a good job of protecting the interests of workers. Anyway, you can source goods as cheap as you like but no-one will buy them if their income is low. Furthermore, if you really want to disempower consumers, make their jobs temporary. The casualisation of the workforce is a definite step backwards for the majority of Australians who rely on a wage or salary to survive. The insecurity is corrosive to society.

DS

[JeffK]

Well bugger me. I better ask for more money tomorrow

[ayou2]

Could you tell us your sources there davids ss.

I have been talking about manufacturing ... wouldn't want to skew things by introducing the mining sector.

Here is an example of what I was saying

http://www.wsws.org/.../ford-m10.shtml

From the article

"Ford Australia’s recent decision to slash production by 20 percent and lay off another 240 workers—13 percent of its total manufacturing workforce—is the latest in a protracted series of attacks on car workers’ jobs and conditions that is being directly orchestrated by the Labor government."

Seems the left have no qualms when it comes to eating their own

If you know a way Ford can ...

Continue to pay current wages

Produce cars at a price Australians will pay

Make a profit instead of losses like these

http://canberratimes...0509-1ycap.html

Then please ..... the nation is all ears davids ss

Or should Labour throw another $102 million dollars at it ?

Just keep borrowing so we dont have to face reality

Edited by ayou2, 03 June 2012 - 11:08 PM.

[ayou2]

If you wish to compete with wages in a Third World labour market then be prepared to accept a Third World standard of living.

I toured Africa for about a year. Villages without the internet. They think any westerner with a Casio watch is a billionaire, honestly, they think we live in diamond encrusted houses. $5 us dollars is a years wages to these guys.

On my side of the fence, I envy them a simple hunter gatherer lifestyle. No mortgage, no traffic, 6 wives that dote on them night & day.

Grass is always greener eh ?

I dont envy workers at Apple though .... suicide nets round the dorms .... shudder !!

Edited by ayou2, 03 June 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[Orpheus]

Ayou, unemployment rates and pay and conditions appear to have very little correlation.

The US has a much lower minimum wage and far higher unemployment, as does China for that matter.

[davidsss]

Ayou, my source is The Australian Bureau of Statistics: http://www.abs.gov.a...0-11&num=&view=

Since my background is development studies I'd have to say that how we deal with industry in Australia given we are a high wage economy is a very complex issue. The first thing to remember is that it isn't just cheap labour which has led to manufacturing jobs going to Asia. They had cheap labour 50 years ago, and I'm sure labour is cheap in Africa. Lot's of factors at play but one of the biggest has been the very large drop in transport costs. Cheap labour could not compensate for the cost of moving things around 50 years ago. Given the advent of peak oil, or at least oil becoming more expensive to extract, not to mention the environmental impact of burning oil, it is a valid question as to whether we can continue to move so many goods around.

The question about whether we keep a car industry, or any industry for that matter is not simple. Are there strategic industries we should not lose? Can we have a viable economy without some sort of manufacturing? Do we subscribe to free market ideology or a mixed economy ideology (assuming capitalism isn't about to fall any time soon, although recent events in Europe make me wonder)? Should we rely on mining and farming for the whole economy. How you answer questions like that will then lead to further questions. If you want to keep some manufacturing, how? Do you directly subsidise it, use tariffs, control the value of your currency? There are many options. The decisions will be taken on the basis of economic interests, economic ideology, development strategy and, of course, political considerations.

I can't see a viable economy without some variety of income sources. We need to keep manufacturing as well as other industries. I actually would favour a government which looks strategically at how a country of 20 million people can continue to sustain a first world lifestyle. We don't have a very large population, to get high per capita income we can specialise to some extent. The trick would be to support our specialisations so we stay ahead of the game. For example, Australians are very good at medical research and many of our patents are in medical instruments. Let's support medical research and encourage invention in what we are good at. We are also good at many other things. Trouble is they get little or no public or private support and relocate overseas. Look at how many Australian IT inventors go to the USA because they cannot find venture capital in Australia. Both the public and private sectors in Australia need a bit of vision and the guts to take risks. But that also means a mindset change such that the media don't crucify any government which invests in the knowledge that not all investments will pay off.

To look at Ford, a USA owned subsiduary anyway, in isolation, is not appropriate. We should look at whether we want Ford to stay here and how that fits with the future of our economy in 5, 10, 25, 50 and 100 years.

DS

[ayou2]

I appreciate all your points DS, it is indeed complex & there are many options.

Ford and others do have themselves to blame too, its not just high Australian wages. Falcons use too much petrol just for starters.

Its been a bug bear with that model for decades, Ford have made them more economical but they still slurp it up city driving.

If they had half a brain they should have been looking for an alternative motor years ago. The inline 6 design dates back to the early sixties.

[MC240]

How is the member for Warringah, Sturt, and the former minister for Longman and James Asbury creditability looking now ?
The txt messages on Asburys phone to Slipper and that reporter from the telegraph are looking more and more like entrapment every day.

Edited by MC240, 27 June 2012 - 07:06 PM.