176 replies to this topic

[Super Mustud]

This is a sad article in today's newspaper.

http://www.theage.co...0523-1z438.html

There has been quite a series of reports about dooring of cyclists over the last few months, and I expect there are many more that are not reported.

Obviously greater care is to be encouraged, and a greater deterrant might be part of that, however what struck me about this article is the call for greater care itself.

In my time as a manager at various levels over many years I was always concerned about accident reports that called for "greater care". Experience shows that this is usually only part of a solution. Reducing the risk of the incident usually calls for more than that, and OH&S legislation makes this clear.

Any ideas out there on how the risk of dooring might be reduced? Technological or otherwise?

[Stump]

This happened to a friend of mine.The bike hit the inside part of the open door and damaged the panel.lucky the bike rider was not hurt.These car doors have been around for a while.

[Super Mustud]

Hmmm. Plug sliding doors would do it. The front door would need to slide forward and the rear door slide backwards.

[emesbee]

Its happened to me. Somebody opened a car door in front of me, blocking the bicycle lane I was riding in. I yelled out, and he quickly shut the door, but by this time it was too late. I had already lost my balance and crashed on the road in front of him, luckily missing hititng the car. I was not seriously injured, but my glasses were smashed, causing a black eye (could have been a lot worse) and my knees and an elbow were grazed. The car driver just said sorry, then drove off!

[LogicprObe]

It would never happen around here...................................because they all ride on the footpath!

[emesbee]

It would never happen around here...................................because they all ride on the footpath!

oh oh, here we go...

[Super Mustud]

oh oh, here we go...

Yeah, I am wanting this to be a constructive thread.

[LogicprObe]

Well, getting in and out of my van all day, I always look in my mirror..........................those semis will take your door off in a flash!
I'm thinking inexperienced drivers.......talking on the phone etc just fling the door open.
Protecting yourself against idiots can be difficult.

[DRC]

Taking a nanny state view -

• mandatory hi-viz vests on bicycles.
  
• mandatory daytime running lights on bicycles.
  
• making checking of mirrors before exiting the vehicle a criteria of new licensee driving tests.
  
• bicycle speed limits in high density (traffic) areas.
  
• changes to ADR's regarding motor vehicle mirror sizes.
  
• Increased fines has/will be mentioned, but I would assume that no one willingly injures a cyclist.

[proftournesol]

I saw it happen to a 15 year old kid riding to school the other day. The driver looked to see that the kid got up off the road and then just walked off!

[davidsss]

This is a serious problem. The worst thing though is when councils encourage cyclists to ride in the door zone by putting supposed bike lanes in the door zone. A good example of this is Canterbury Rd from StKilda to Albert Park. That bike lane is a death trap. Contrast that with the lane going south on Beach Rd which is wide enough to be away from the doors and away from the cars.

I don't see why I should have less rights as a cyclist on the road, at the moment I have the same rights, I am on a vehicle just like a car. Why should I have to run lights during the day or wear hi vis clothing or have a separate speed limit? The last is the most ridiculous given bikes stop quicker, fit in much smaller places and handle better than a car.

The solution to this is simple: people need to be careful opening car doors. Just look in the mirror for 5 seconds and there will be no problem.

My solution is to ride far enough away from parked cars to avoid the doors, if that means riding in the traffic lane then don't complain to me, complain to the road designers. Anyway it's hardly me holding up cars in peak hour, they hold me up.

DS

[DRC]

This is a serious problem. The worst thing though is when councils encourage cyclists to ride in the door zone by putting supposed bike lanes in the door zone. A good example of this is Canterbury Rd from StKilda to Albert Park. That bike lane is a death trap. Contrast that with the lane going south on Beach Rd which is wide enough to be away from the doors and away from the cars.

I don't see why I should have less rights as a cyclist on the road, at the moment I have the same rights, I am on a vehicle just like a car. Why should I have to run lights during the day or wear hi vis clothing or have a separate speed limit? The last is the most ridiculous given bikes stop quicker, fit in much smaller places and handle better than a car.

The solution to this is simple: people need to be careful opening car doors. Just look in the mirror for 5 seconds and there will be no problem.

My solution is to ride far enough away from parked cars to avoid the doors, if that means riding in the traffic lane then don't complain to me, complain to the road designers. Anyway it's hardly me holding up cars in peak hour, they hold me up.

DS

I merely suggested solutions to the problem, if they don't fit in with your lifestyle then so be it. Motorcycles also suffer from dooring issues, and visibility issues. They are also held up by car users, fit is smaller places , and handle better than a car. Yet they are subject to restrictions on their lifestyle in the interests of safety. Can you could really stop quicker, as stated, than a car? Maybe so, but what about the average rider on a sub $1000 specialist bike.

[davidsss]

I have a sub $1,000 non-specialist bike. It's a flat bar roadie and bike plus rider, around 120Kg, does stop quicker than 1.5 tonne car. Bikes are much slower than motorbikes and they fit in much smaller spaces. Motorcyclists are just as vulnerable though. I just get pissed off because cyclists are being told to change our behaviour because of the negligence of others. We are not the problem, it's idiots who open car doors without looking who are the problem.

DS

[proftournesol]

This is a serious problem. The worst thing though is when councils encourage cyclists to ride in the door zone by putting supposed bike lanes in the door zone. A good example of this is Canterbury Rd from StKilda to Albert Park. That bike lane is a death trap. Contrast that with the lane going south on Beach Rd which is wide enough to be away from the doors and away from the cars.

I don't see why I should have less rights as a cyclist on the road, at the moment I have the same rights, I am on a vehicle just like a car. Why should I have to run lights during the day or wear hi vis clothing or have a separate speed limit? The last is the most ridiculous given bikes stop quicker, fit in much smaller places and handle better than a car.

The solution to this is simple: people need to be careful opening car doors. Just look in the mirror for 5 seconds and there will be no problem.

My solution is to ride far enough away from parked cars to avoid the doors, if that means riding in the traffic lane then don't complain to me, complain to the road designers. Anyway it's hardly me holding up cars in peak hour, they hold me up.

DS

David the reason why those things don't work is that people don't look. Cyclists don't always look inside the cars they are approaching for people (although sometimes it's impossible to see) but many drivers just don't look at all or at least not until after they've flung the door open. In that case it doesn't matter if the cyclist is lit up like a Xmas tree. I've seen may serious injuries below 20km/hr so just riding everywhere at walking pace is no solution either. The new 'Copenhagen lanes' in East Melbourne are even worse as they are placed in the passenger door zone and passengers are even less likely to remember that this is the only road that they have to look before they open the door and the door mirror isn't even setup for them anyway.

There is a simple solution, and that is for riders and car occupants to look. The simplest things are often the hardest

[krebetman]

Prof is so right about the Copenhagen-style lanes being dangerous because passengers are not used to looking, plus people crossing the road often don't look past the line of parked cars before walking through. The expectations we have been brought up with are that the area to the left of a car is a 'safe' zone.

I dearly wish the local councils would come to a unified approach, as we currently have (at least):

1. Bike lanes in the driver's door zone
2. Copenhagen style bike lanes on the passenger-side
3. The car+bike raised tram zone (eg. In front of parliament house)
4. The mind-bending car-on-tramtrack, bike-on-raised-zone-where-passengers-think-they-should-wait situation on high st in Northcote




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[emesbee]

One of the frustrations of being a cyclist, at least in Adelaide, is bike lanes that start and stop randomly. I avoid bike lanes wherever possible, and seek out quiet back streets or off-street cycle paths. Much safer (usually, see below).

The other problem is simply inattention. I have had a situation where a car driver approaching from a side street on my left intending to do a right turn has stopped, looked straight at me, only to then pull out right in front of me as I got close, then slam the brakes on. I had to swerve to avoid her, and narrowly avoided a collision.

It looked for all the world as if she had stopped to give way to me, but it seems that only four wheeled motorised vehicles were in her consciousness. She actually looked straight at me, but apparently didn't register my presence. It was a bright sunny day, it was a quiet street with good visibility and there was no other traffic around, so there was no excuse for not seeing me. I don't know how one addresses that problem.

Edited by emesbee, 24 May 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[davidsss]

Yes, the simplest solutions are often very hard.

The Copenhagen lanes just do not work. We are not set up for them. I have seen a few pics of Copenhagen and their lanes don't seem to have driveways coming out every 10 metres like the one in Swanston St. The intersections with side streets just don't work because the cars coming out of side streets are forced to block the bike lane in order to see the traffic in Swanston St. They really have not worked at all. The solution is wider parking spots to allow for the doors and then a wide bike lane. Given the number of bikes on StKilda Rd I think the whole left lane should be for bikes. It's not as if the cars actually move much at peak hour, won't slow them down, they are already averaging about 10KpH.

DS

[RockandorRoll]

Was reading a traffic article on the local news site. One of the comments was "cyclists don't pay to use the road, car drivers do, be thankful we let you on the roads at all"

Or something to that effect. I suppose if you look at how much registration is per year you would think car drivers get some benefits...

[emesbee]

Was reading a traffic article on the local news site. One of the comments was "cyclists don't pay to use the road, car drivers do, be thankful we let you on the roads at all"

Or something to that effect. I suppose if you look at how much registration is per year you would think car drivers get some benefits...

Yeah, that tired old comment again. What the people who make those types of comments seem to conveniently ignore, is that the vast majority of cyclists are also motorists, so they are paying to use the road. In any case, who is this we. Does somebody think that they have exclusive right to decide who should use the road just because they pay registration fees and petrol tax?

[proftournesol]

Strange but true, roads were first sealed for the benefit of bicycles not cars. Registration fees are a fee to register your car not a fee for use of the roads.

[RockandorRoll]

mmmm, i didnt think much of the comment, id just never heard that argument before

I personally hate cyclists, for the sole reason that i dont want to kill one. Its extreme sports at its finest i reckon

[Itsmoi]

I have vast experience riding a bicycle/mopeds and some motorcycle from 18 till 21 in the Netherlands, lived there till I was 21.
That place is structured for bicycle transport, this country is not at all. It needs to be split of each other as much as possible, no sharing of roads is the preferred option.
Take your life in your own hands here till then
Wish my son didn't ride a cycle, I worry daily when he commutes to uni, FML....

[krebetman]

Some poor guy got doored by the Lord Mayor's car! http://www.heraldsun...2-1226379490273

Was in the Herald Sun, but may still be true...

[rantan]

. Registration fees are a fee to register your car not a fee for use of the roads.

Slightly disingenuous perhaps, but somewhat like my local Italian cafe........"whatever pasta you choose is free...... but you pay must pay for the sauce of your choice".

I understand that registration fees are for car registration and 3rd party insurance,but a component of that amount is a fee for the use of a car on the road.

[proftournesol]

Slightly disingenuous perhaps, but somewhat like my local Italian cafe........"whatever pasta you choose is free...... but you pay must pay for the sauce of your choice".

I understand that registration fees are for car registration and 3rd party insurance,but a component of that amount is a fee for the use of a car on the road.

yes but what we spend on roads is much more than we spend on car rego. Most of the road funding money comes from consolidated revenue. We all contribute to that (well apart from Clive Palmer and Gina Rinehart)

[LogicprObe]

yes but what we spend on roads is much more than we spend on car rego. Most of the road funding money comes from consolidated revenue. We all contribute to that (well apart from Clive Palmer and Gina Rinehart)

I dispute this,...............but the diesel subsidy for these people is obscene.
Rescinding this would save the government more than the carbon and mining tax combined........................negating the need for both.

Gutless pricks!

[proftournesol]

The subsidy has been reduced in the budget, pressure from The Greens

[LogicprObe]

The subsidy has been reduced in the budget, pressure from The Greens

It should be wiped...............completely.

The Greens are effective as a condom with a hole in it.

[Makka]

If you ride a bike or motorbike you have to take responsibility for your own safety or you will get hurt or die.
It's that simple.

I've been riding motorbikes for close to 40 years and have survived by assuming that all car drivers are homicidal idiots. Very few are homicidal in reality but a surprisingly large number are idiots. I've lost count of the times I've seen someone indicating one way but turning the other.

If I am riding in the area where car doors can open then I will always look to see if anyone is in the car. If they are then assume they may open the door on you and either move out or slow down and use your horn or bell. Get a loud horn or bell.

If you want to try and get others to be aware good luck. You will get hurt.

[proftournesol]

Makka, it's more difficult on a bicycle. You can ride further into the centre of the road on a motorbike because you can travel at the same speed as the traffic. On a bike you have drivers abusing you if you delay them by 10 seconds of you aren't far enough over to the left out of their way, and then you are well into the dooming zone. If you stick to your line then they pass with often centimetres to spare. Bike lines are placed squarely in the dooring zone. Apart from that I agree that bikes and motorbikes need to ride with awareness and assume stupidity from drivers and pedestrians

[proftournesol]

It should be wiped...............completely.

The Greens are effective as a condom with a hole in it.

Do you really think that they'd do the same thing if they were the majority party?

[Makka]

I agree with you Prof.

As with everything it is a question of compromise.
I would rather be abused than injured.
I do wonder how much the bike speed is a factor.
If I ride a bike and see someone in a parked car I slow right down if I can't pull out.
Yes it will take a few seconds longer to get where I am going but better than injury.

Amongst bikers there is a saying. "It's ALWAYS your own fault".

Don't feed the troll

[LogicprObe]

Do you really think that they'd do the same thing if they were the majority party?

They have their priorities wrong.

The Greens had one hand to play in supporting Gillard and went with the carbon tax rather than more effective measures.
If these companies had to pay full freight, how fast do you think they'd be in replacing their huge gas guzzling and CO2 outputting plants with solar or other technologies?

[rehabitat]

They have their priorities wrong.

The Greens had one hand to play in supporting Gillard and went with the carbon tax rather than more effective measures.
If these companies had to pay full freight, how fast do you think they'd be in replacing their huge gas guzzling and CO2 outputting plants with solar or other technologies?

I agree with your sentiment LP but I think you are missing the point. Labour would never support the move you suggest so it would have been useless for the Greens to push for that and achieve nothing. Better to support something that has a chance of succeeding. Strategy is important, behaving like a bull in a china shop is not good strategy.

[LogicprObe]

So, your saying it was easy to persuade Gillard to completely trash her trust with the Australian people for all time?

[rehabitat]

Do you have a hangover or something?

[Whatmore]

Was reading a traffic article on the local news site. One of the comments was "cyclists don't pay to use the road, car drivers do, be thankful we let you on the roads at all"

Or something to that effect. I suppose if you look at how much registration is per year you would think car drivers get some benefits...

What about passengers in your car then, have they paid to use the road?

[proftournesol]

I agree with you Prof.

As with everything it is a question of compromise.
I would rather be abused than injured.
I do wonder how much the bike speed is a factor.
If I ride a bike and see someone in a parked car I slow right down if I can't pull out.
Yes it will take a few seconds longer to get where I am going but better than injury.

Amongst bikers there is a saying. "It's ALWAYS your own fault".

Don't feed the troll

I've had more than abuse hurled at me, I've been squirted with a super squirter, had tacks thrown on the road in front off me. My wife's friend was literally kicked off her bike by a passing motorcyclist and broke her arm (he went to gaol). It's a dangerous world out there!

[rehabitat]

I've had more than abuse hurled at me, I've been squirted with a super squirter, had tacks thrown on the road in front off me. My wife's friend was literally kicked off her bike by a passing motorcyclist and broke her arm (he went to gaol). It's a dangerous world out there!

That's a sad indictment of our society. Most people have the wrong attitude of driving. They see it as a right and not as a privilege and a responsibility like it should be. Let's face it, like the yanks, we Australians have had it far too easy for far too long and only a massive cutural shift will affect these basic behaviours.

Edited by rehabitat, 02 June 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[emesbee]

I've had more than abuse hurled at me, I've been squirted with a super squirter, had tacks thrown on the road in front off me. My wife's friend was literally kicked off her bike by a passing motorcyclist and broke her arm (he went to gaol). It's a dangerous world out there!

I've had a beer bottle thrown at me. Luckily it missed me.

[Super Mustud]

That's a sad indictment of our society. Most people have the wrong attitude of driving. They see it as a right and not as a privilege and a responsibility like it should be. Let's face it, like the yanks, we Australians have had it far too easy for far too long and only a massive cutural shift will affect these basic behaviours.

Mark Webber caused this attitude to arise when he started frothing at the mouth about Hamilton being rapped over the knuckles for doing burnouts on a public road in Melbourne. It all come back to BBQ.

[rehabitat]

<p>

Mark Webber caused this attitude to arise when he started frothing at the mouth about Hamilton being rapped over the knuckles for doing burnouts on a public road in Melbourne. It all come back to BBQ.

I love it how you can dismantle and rebuild an argument in such a way that no-one knows if you are being serious or not. That takes talent ;)Now you have me thinking about the bbq connection...care to elaborate or am I chasing a furphy?

Edited by rehabitat, 02 June 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[LogicprObe]

I've had a beer bottle thrown at me. Luckily it missed me.

My mate and I were unloading a large window, about 2.7m x 1.5m, from the back of my van on a main road when this carfull of hoons went past..........one tossed a beer bottle at the window in an attempt to break it!

Luckily, he was a poor shot.

[Makka]

I've had more than abuse hurled at me, I've been squirted with a super squirter, had tacks thrown on the road in front off me. My wife's friend was literally kicked off her bike by a passing motorcyclist and broke her arm (he went to gaol). It's a dangerous world out there!

I've never had this so am absolutely shocked to hear it. So much anger in this world of ours.
It's attitudes like the one about road tax that encourage this kind of thug behaviour.
What a ridiculous argument.

[Super Mustud]

<p> I love it how you can dismantle and rebuild an argument in such a way that no-one knows if you are being serious or not. That takes talent ;)Now you have me thinking about the bbq connection...care to elaborate or am I chasing a furphy?

Webber = BBQ.

Serious? Absolutely! Well...