558 replies to this topic

[barelythere]

If you were a 'too early' adopter you also got no subsidy nor any feed-in tariff. We are now thinking about going completely off-grid when we rebuild - we'll have no utility costs at all

Yep us too!

[mr-happy-pants]

So, you rent or missed out?
Sorry but you do sound rather bitter about it all.

Nope, niether a renter or in need of a domestic solar subsidy.
Nor am I bitter. Angry maybe, but not bitter. But I do feel some empathy for those who 'miss the boat' coz it's gotta quickly get to the other side of the river due to faulty hull design demanded by politicians.

Needless to say I don't care much for politicians myself. Incompetence is the more likely answer in my view.
Conspiracies require a level of intelligence and organisation rarely found in the offices of our pollies.

Agree, politicians don't seem to clever.
Powerful big business lobby groups are a different story.

Edited by mr-happy-pants, 13 July 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[comfortablynumb]

If you were a 'too early' adopter you also got no subsidy nor any feed-in tariff. We are now thinking about going completely off-grid when we rebuild - we'll have no utility costs at all

Don't count on that Prof. You will most likely have to pay a "service fee" because the power lines go past your house !!!

This is the case with water supply, even if you have soley tank water and a septic.

Well....that is the case in SA anyway.

[mr-happy-pants]

What are they gonna do if you don't pay, turn the power off ?

[comfortablynumb]

Confiscate yer panels ?

[davidsss]

Wow, no feed in tariff at all? How is it legal for the power companies to then resell the power you provided? What a rip off. In any case a feed in tariff of 8c is hardly reflective of the return the power company gets given that the most likely time you generate more than you use is when the sun is shining but you are at work, which is just when peak power demand happens and prices are highest.

DS

[Art Vandelay]

Wow, no feed in tariff at all? How is it legal for the power companies to then resell the power you provided? What a rip off. In any case a feed in tariff of 8c is hardly reflective of the return the power company gets given that the most likely time you generate more than you use is when the sun is shining but you are at work, which is just when peak power demand happens and prices are highest.

DS

In NSW the load curves are nothing like that. During winter, there's a morning peak at 09:00 and a much larger evening peak at 19:00, followed by a high plateau to beyond midnight. During Summer, there is no morning peak but there is a gradual rise from 12:00 until 17:00 and a more rapid rise to a peak at 18:30. However, there's a larger peak from 22:00 that extends to beyond midnight.

The winter peak is also much larger than the summer peak. (4700 vs 3500 MW).

The (important) point though is that PV solar output is not available during the hours of greatest demand.

[mr-happy-pants]

The (important) point though is that PV solar output is not available during the hours of greatest demand.

This still gives the power producers the ability to generate less power during the day whilst the sun is out.

Domestic solar still assists reduce base load demand, which is a great thing.

I think the subsidy of domestic solar install & feed-in tarrifs are a great win-win for the community at large.

It puts power at the point of use (eg suburbs), rather than lose ~40% of what is generated getting it from the power plant to the suburbs.
It helps reduce the need for $b's required for infrastructure upgrades re future increase in base load.

But, again the faceless men who have the power (and schit loads of your cash) have the ear of the government,

Graham

[Art Vandelay]

This still gives the power producers the ability to generate less power during the day whilst the sun is out.

Domestic solar still assists reduce base load demand, which is a great thing.

Graham

That's one of the green myths.

Sure it may be correct in future but as long as CFP stations are the dominant source of power most of the PV power is wasted because coal fired power stations cannot be dynamically adjusted and need to operate at peak load power - 24/7.

[proftournesol]

That's one of the green myths.

Sure it may be correct in future but as long as CFP stations are the dominant source of power most of the PV power is wasted because coal fired power stations cannot be dynamically adjusted and need to operate at peak load power - 24/7.

so then we all need to adapt the way we live and use power to suit CFP????? Madness! That's another reason to look for a different technology, we don't have to shut down CFP tomorrow but really why would we promote an inflexible power source that's only cheap if we ignore the environmental impact (socialise the impact) and we adapt the way that we live to suit the CFP operators?

[mr-happy-pants]

so then we all need to adapt the way we live and use power to suit CFP????? Madness! That's another reason to look for a different technology, we don't have to shut down CFP tomorrow but really why would we promote an inflexible power source that's only cheap if we ignore the environmental impact (socialise the impact) and we adapt the way that we live to suit the CFP operators?

G'day Prof

You're on the money I reckon...

My feeling is the government really want us to take the easy option, again.

I am hoping that come the next election, subsidising domestic solar gets a gurnsey again.

Some chance

Edited by mr-happy-pants, 17 July 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[barelythere]

That's one of the green myths.

Sure it may be correct in future but as long as CFP stations are the dominant source of power most of the PV power is wasted because coal fired power stations cannot be dynamically adjusted and need to operate at peak load power - 24/7.

Are you absolutely sure CFP is run flat out all the time?
My understanding in WA is that the CFPs are switched in and out as required by demand bringing plants online as demand increases and winding down as demand grows, this is in effect a dynamic reaction to power demand, albeit a bit slow and human (operator) driven. Yes some power would be wasted but as far as all CFPs running 24/7 that's just not what I understand.

Edited by barelythere, 17 July 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Art Vandelay]

Are you absolutely sure CFP is run flat out all the time?
My understanding in WA is that the CFPs are switched in and out as required by demand bringing plants online as demand increases and winding down as demand grows, this is in effect a dynamic reaction to power demand, albeit a bit slow and human (operator) driven. Yes some power would be wasted but as far as all CFPs running 24/7 that's just not what I understand.

Some of the newer CFP steam boilers are more responsive but here in NSW (and possibly most states) the boiler technology is old and this limits effectiveness of renewable inputs. In some cases the renewables can create a dangerous pressure buildup.

[barelythere]

I read that in the north west (Carnarvon I think?) that local take up of solar panels was so high that the thousands of panels during maximum peak production times were putting into the local power grid network more power than it was designed to cope with and the local power station managers had to do a couple of emergency power plant shutdowns to save a major "over"outage from happening. Bit embarrassing for all concerned as the government had to stop any further solar panel installations in the area until the issue was resolved, not heard any more about that.

[Art Vandelay]

I read that in the north west (Carnarvon I think?) that local take up of solar panels was so high that the thousands of panels during maximum peak production times were putting into the local power grid network more power than it was designed to cope with and the local power station managers had to do a couple of emergency power plant shutdowns to save a major "over"outage from happening. Bit embarrassing for all concerned as the government had to stop any further solar panel installations in the area until the issue was resolved, not heard any more about that.

We had similar problems in parts of NSW with some of the wind farms. The PV solar systems create a more gentle and more predicable negative impedance but can still present problems for generators as well as users by raising the mains voltage to the 265V RMS limit.

I'm actually pro renewable energy so my negativity is not aimed at the desire to move in that direction, it's specifically aimed at the way it's being implemented.

[JeffK]

A coal fired boiler/turbine generator will have some dynamic capability. The load increase or decrease rate will vary with the design but might be eg 1 to 2 Megawatts per minute. Gas turbine and hydroelectric driven generators can change load a lot faster. The problem with the great majority of these energy sources is that the energy cannot be stored in anything but the smallest quantities. Generators can only supply the load imposed no more, no less. If the demand from the electricity grid drops suddenly the generators will tend to speed up and the governor system will return the generator to the set speed (in Oz 50 Hertz) and the energy supplied by all the generators connected to that grid will drop to match the demand. And vice versa.

Jeff

[proftournesol]

So the problem is that most of our generator infrastructure is become less and less suited to our needs. The solution is not to change the way we live our lives to suit the outdated infrastructure.

[JeffK]

So the problem is that most of our generator infrastructure is become less and less suited to our needs. The solution is not to change the way we live our lives to suit the outdated infrastructure.

Yes I think the generator infrastructure is probably not adequately oriented towards renewable sources. But things will change as the environmental and economic drivers tip the balance towards renewables. Might need more of a push from legislators and funds into the development and most importantly commercialisation of sustainable energy sources.

I used to dream about discovering a way around thermodynamic laws which made thermal electricity generation more efficient. Now I dream about distributed sources and imagine a small "black box" at each residence which collects and stores solar energy.

[Art Vandelay]

I used to dream about discovering a way around thermodynamic laws which made thermal electricity generation more efficient. Now I dream about distributed sources and imagine a small "black box" at each residence which collects and stores solar energy.

And I thought I was the only one that dreamed about small black boxes and distributed sources.

[proftournesol]

Yes I think the generator infrastructure is probably not adequately oriented towards renewable sources. But things will change as the environmental and economic drivers tip the balance towards renewables. Might need more of a push from legislators and funds into the development and most importantly commercialisation of sustainable energy sources.

I used to dream about discovering a way around thermodynamic laws which made thermal electricity generation more efficient. Now I dream about distributed sources and imagine a small "black box" at each residence which collects and stores solar energy.

Hence the Renewable energy Fund

[davidsss]

Yep, coal fired power is too inflexible, takes hours to ramp up or down the amount generated. Time to change to more flexible power options.

As for the issue about demand and timing: the highest tariffs we pay for power are during the day, not at 10pm. If they feel the need to charge more for power right when I'm generating it for them then surely they should pay the premium too.

DS

[JeffK]

Sorry David I can't let that one go. The response of coal fired generators to changes in system demand is instantaneous. What is true is that if you take a large generator off line and let it get cold it can take hours even longer than a day in some cases to return it to service.

Also mamy of the existing coal fired units in Australia were designed to run at full load. Current market conditions are such that many of these units are required to run at part load and move load around which is relatively inefficient. Eg units I am familiar with which have a thermal efficiency of 36% at full load may only be 33% at their minimum load thus generating about 10% more carbon for each energy unit supplied

Jeff

[JeffK]

Hence the Renewable energy Fund

That's right. But we need IMO to concentrate on the commercialisation end ATM to get these almost viable options over the line.

[hybridfiat]

Ive a friend who trains the Power workers in WA on the computer control systems. He has 23yrs of experience in this field. I cannot repeat word for word his reply to my question of why the energy companies dont like the solar feed in, but Ill try and convey the gist of what he had to say.
He said it is because they baseline power stations cannot alter their output quickly enough to change in sudden fluctuations of feed-in from the panels. He said that even a large cloud passing over Perth alters the grid significantly and means a scramble in the control rooms..
He cannot see this improving till we get a new system of power stations.

[proftournesol]

So, again we are being asked to run our lives for the benefit of the power industry. Another instance of the 99% working to enrich the 1%

[mr-happy-pants]

So, this being the case, maybe the federal government (for want of a better name) should consider subsidising domestic storage of solar power ie capture to batteries, rather than feed back to the grid.

Does anyone have costing models on this?

I expect it is much more expensive to setup, but there are obvious advantages eg you can use the power you captured when you are at home later on in the day.

I believe this solution is now becoming more popular and subsidised in remote areas.

Caveat. I don't have any facts.

Graham

[hybridfiat]

^{I dont think he or they are asking anything, just pointing out the difficulty of adapting an existing system that has limited flexibility to new demands.
He has no objection to the concept just its ad hoc implimentation.}

Edited by hybridfiat, 20 July 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[JeffK]

Yes your friend above makes a valid point. Despite what i said above re the instantaneous response of cold fired power stations sudden step changes in the demand caused by solar and wind would create problems especially for older plant and on top of that the WA sitemap is separate from the NEM and has long transmission lengths.

Prof while I agree that we need to move towards renewables as soon as possible it's not just a matter of turning off existing generation in the short term.

Jeff

[proftournesol]

Jeff we both agree on that, the smartening up' of the grid is even more important as wind power will also provide fluctuating loads (although with distributed generation sites it may not be a major issue), however power pricing/ tax incentives/government strategy should all be directed at encouraging this transition rather than protecting the interests of existing CFP stations

[mr-happy-pants]

... however power pricing/ tax incentives/government strategy should all be directed at encouraging this transition rather than protecting the interests of existing CFP stations

and that ladies & gentlemen is the sound of the fat lady singing!

[:) al]

To me looks like another case of government getting us all gee'd up for renewable energy when it looks like the infrastructure is simply not ready for it !

[JeffK]

I strongly recommend we cut loose the Victorian generators. They are not taxpayer owned and are the highest carbon emitters by a big margin.

[Arg]

.... power pricing/ tax incentives/government strategy should all be directed at encouraging this transition rather than protecting the interests of existing CFP stations

Sounds great, but it is a bit of a tightrope act to encourage the new while ensuring the old still serves its (baseload) purpose that the new cannot yet substitute.

Tightrope because it is all encouragement and incentive, not control and law.

[davidsss]

To me looks like another case of government getting us all gee'd up for renewable energy when it looks like the infrastructure is simply not ready for it !

I think that's pretty accurate. It is good for us to move towards renewables and I like the idea of distributed generation with the power losses from moving energy around. Storing energy in batteries is very inefficient so grid connected really is the go unless you are in a remote area. However, we need to improve the infrastructure to take full advantage.

DS

[JeffK]

Sounds great, but it is a bit of a tightrope act to encourage the new while ensuring the old still serves its (baseload) purpose that the new cannot yet substitute.

Tightrope because it is all encouragement and incentive, not control and law.

Nah I think we should legislate and regulate to reduce carbon. All this business about the market working is too slow and too inefficient. And the market needs detailed regulation to work even half properly anyway. Have you seen the massive amount of red tape around most of the government programmes? And in some cases millions of $ spent and very little carbon abated.

[proftournesol]

Sounds great, but it is a bit of a tightrope act to encourage the new while ensuring the old still serves its (baseload) purpose that the new cannot yet substitute.

Tightrope because it is all encouragement and incentive, not control and law.

I agree Arg! The problem with loose encouragement rather than tight regulation is that we are at the whim of 'market forces' (determined by the 99%) rather than the community having a say in what will suit it's needs. We at least need to make a decision at a fundamental level like how centralised do we want the generation v how local. The problem with the transition is that with the existing $10 billion in yearly subsidies to old power/old energy, the market becomes distorted and that transition becomes more difficult

[Super Mustud]

I think that's pretty accurate. It is good for us to move towards renewables and I like the idea of distributed generation with the power losses from moving energy around. Storing energy in batteries is very inefficient so grid connected really is the go unless you are in a remote area. However, we need to improve the infrastructure to take full advantage.

DS

I was going to say something along the same lines.

Taking it further, though, I think the biggest challenge will be to make the transition (I am assuming that there will be a transition) commercially workable within the existing commercial framework. That doesn't mean the current framework remains, of course, it just means there must be an orderly process. Otherwise we will be cactus as things start falling apart.

[Nada]

...... The problem with the transition is that with the existing $10 billion in yearly subsidies to old power/old energy, the market becomes distorted and that transition becomes more difficult

The Germans seem to be way ahead of us in terms of the Government actually governing for a better future:

Germany sets new solar power record
German solar power plants produced a record 22 gigawatts of electricity - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity, says the head of a renewable energy think tank.
The German government decided to abandon nuclear power after the Fukushima nuclear disaster last year, closing eight plants immediately and shutting down the remaining nine by 2022.
Government-mandated support for renewables has helped Germany became a world leader in renewable energy and the country gets about 20 percent of its overall annual electricity from those sources.
Germany has nearly as much installed solar power generation capacity as the rest of the world combined and gets about four per cent of its overall annual electricity needs from the Sun. It aims to cut its greenhouse gas emissions by 40 per cent from 1990 levels by 2020.

[rehabitat]

Nice evening for panel scrubbing
 uploadfromtaptalk1346054040949.jpg   12.78K   13 downloads

[Super Mustud]

Nice evening for panel scrubbing
 uploadfromtaptalk1346054040949.jpg   12.78K   13 downloads

Most solar panel installs look unbelievably ugly. That one looks pretty good.

The main thing stopping me going ahead with my own installation is that the aesthetics of it are generally just horrible.

[rehabitat]

Most solar panel installs look unbelievably ugly. That one looks pretty good.

The main thing stopping me going ahead with my own installation is that the aesthetics of it are generally just horrible.

Thanks. These are kaneka hybrid panels, same output but larger area than a standard silicon panel. We like the appearance too, but we chose them also for their superior performance when partly shaded. Standard panels will shut down completely under partial shade, not so with the hybrids. You can see from the photo we have many trees around.

Edited by rehabitat, 28 August 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[:) al]

nice sunny day 9.6kw is what the solar panels put away. seem to be getting more and more as spring and summer is coming

ps seems origin has a web interface for their dumb meters now. not sure something I have access too though. wouldnt mind 1/2 hourly updates via the web. finally some smarts be injected in the meters then !

[proftournesol]

The Origin web interface doesn't work with smart meters connected to PV panels. Not such a smart interface it seems

[Super Mustud]

nice sunny day 9.6kw is what the solar panels put away. seem to be getting more and more as spring and summer is coming

ps seems origin has a web interface for their dumb meters now. not sure something I have access too though. wouldnt mind 1/2 hourly updates via the web. finally some smarts be injected in the meters then !

Are the numbers starting to look more rosy for you, Al?

[:) al]

hi mustud, looking a lot lot better. where mid winter was only covering as little 1/3 daily use, its more like 2/3rd now...lets see...