84 replies to this topic

[Lil Caesar]

Today was spent in the company of Holliswhy and B4Sound, mostly @ B4Sounds' lovely abode. The point of the little GTG was to introduce them both to the joys of the NAD M51 AND to do an ABX with the Audiophilleo 2. The end result was rather simple. Both these two fine gentlemen would like to an M51

BUT for me it was all about the AP2. OMG.

The difference can only be described using outlandish hyperbole. It really was night and day, at least from B4sound's Mac Mini into his Cyrus mono's and Dyn C1's. I now need to determine if the same result can be achieved at my place, in my system. This was truly profound for me given my initial scepticism.

I won't elaborate any further given the existence of an AP2 thread etc, but I felt I did need to put it out there for SNA to see. I'm happy to acknowledge how stubborn I was to play down the value of this device. I AM A CONVERT.

Lil C.

Edited by Lil Caesar, 05 May 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[pchan]

Today was spent in the company of Holliswhy and B4Sound, mostly @ B4Sounds' lovely abode. The point of the little GTG was to introduce them both the the joys of the NAD M51 AND to do an ABX with the Audiophilleo 2. The end result was rather simple. Both these two fine gentlemen would like to an M51

BUT for me it was all about the AP2. OMG.

The difference can only be described using outlandish hyperbole. It really was night and day, at least from B4sound's Mac Mini into his Cyrus mono's and Dyn C1's. I now need to determine if the same result can be achieved at my place, in my system. This was truly profound for me given my initial scepticism.

I won't elaborate any further given the existence of an AP2 thread etc, but I felt I did need to put it out there for SNA to see. I'm happy to acknowledge how stubborn I was to play down the value of this device. I AM A CONVERT.

Lil C.

So is this the next step LC??? AP2 or OFR5???
I am still justifying $1.5k on a faulty M51, just my luck!!! I still don't have it yet.

[Lil Caesar]

B4Sound and Holliswhy will get the return favour in the form of a little GTG at my place where I'll be able to hear the AP2 in my system. We are kinda curious as to whether the improvement will be as dramatic as it was at B4Sounds' place. BUT I suspect I will be buying one

IF the impact is as significant as what I heard today, then the $500-odd will be money well spent. I can't justify an off-ramp ATM. It also strikes me as something of an imbalance to spend the equivalent of the M51 on an auxiliary device. I know this is EXACTLY the point that JD and Bhobba have been making for some time but I just can't bring myself to do it.

[katattack74]

B4Sound and Holliswhy will get the return favour in the form of a little GTG at my place where I'll be able to hear the AP2 in my system. We are kinda curious as to whether the improvement will be as dramatic as it was at B4Sounds' place. BUT I suspect I will be buying one

IF the impact is as significant as what I heard today, then the $500-odd will be money well spent. I can't justify an off-ramp ATM. It also strikes me as something of an imbalance to spend the equivalent of the M51 on an auxiliary device. I know this is EXACTLY the point that JD and Bhobba have been making for some time but I just can't bring myself to do it.

LC, Will be interested to hear your impressions on the AP2. Was the AP2 unit powered by a battery PSU at B4's place? Just speculation but JD seems to have sold off his JKMk3 and A-GD DI recently may suggest his preference for the AP2 unit? Also spending $1.5k for a base model OffRamp5 is a bit much as well, but it may seem that this IS the best USB-SPDIF transport available atm.

[b4sound]

A big thanks to Holliswhy for bringing over LC and a big thanks to LC for bringing over the M51.

We started off with the M51 naked with USB out of the Mac Mini (running Audirvana Plus) into the M51.
Quite a bit of time was spent getting used to this sound and I remember towards the end I said to the boys that 'it didn't sound right'... to which LC replied 'how? does it not sound right'... Too bad, I am no good at describing how I felt so kept quiet. The worse track was when Hollis played 'At The Drive - Fahrenheit' (The boys were getting sick of female vocals by this stage). It sounded horrible and unlistenable.

We then got a process together by picking one track each:
1/ HW > Eagles (Hell Freezez Over) - Hotel California
2/ LC > Lana Del Rey (Born to Die) - Video Games
3/ B4 > Lisa Wahlandt (The Music of Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto) - How Insensitive

Hotel California was definitely a good track for the purpose of this exercise. The naked M51 playing first up had boomy bass to the point that HW and LC was almost going to carry the C1s out into the lounge for me. (I was aware of my poorly laid out cluttered study but was honestly not prepared for such poor performance).

We then dressed up the M51 with the AP2 and replayed the same three tracks.





It didn't need to go very far at all, we waited for the bass to kick in on Hotel California and it was brutally obvious how such a tiny device on the whole scheme of things can make such a huge difference. In LC's words "It was like we were in a different room". What was originally thought to be room related acoustic issues (yes they still exist) was very much augmented by the AP2. Please be aware that it was NOT a blind test and would the results be any different if it was? (we can try that next time heh?)

Afterwards, we also played with a 6db then a 10db attenuator (16db would not lock on the m51).
Best I let the man LC describe what he heard.

On a separate note (probably should be in the M51 thread), this unit really is something. I just need to find a way to cut it into half to fit into my rack (and spray paint it black):

[Lil Caesar]

Thanks for that b4

And the lovely pics.

I almost forgot about the attenuators. Interesting little things. Best described as a turbocharger of sorts which applied something of a magnifying glass effect. Most fascinating was that the 10db unit seemed to behave better than the 6db unit. This is probably very specific to the whole component chain and respective impedances so I'll leave it for others with better technical knowledge to comment.

The ap2 provided soundstage clarity and definition, and this stunned me because these are both qualities that lead to my purchase of the m51 in the first place. One very good observation that b4sound made - perhaps the differences were so stark due to the m51s very high level of transparency and complete lack of coloration.

Edited by Lil Caesar, 05 May 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[kajak12]

Enjoy your journey Lil Caesar it never ends

[Arg]

Only circles never end.

I've had audio epiphanies like that, Lil Caesar. It takes a little while for perspective to return. Enjoy it while it lingers.

[pete_mac]

LC, Will be interested to hear your impressions on the AP2. Was the AP2 unit powered by a battery PSU at B4's place? Just speculation but JD seems to have sold off his JKMk3 and A-GD DI recently may suggest his preference for the AP2 unit? Also spending $1.5k for a base model OffRamp5 is a bit much as well, but it may seem that this IS the best USB-SPDIF transport available atm.

Without wanting to speak on behalf of John (nah, bugger it, he's half-blind right now and probably won't see what I've written anyway! ) AFAIK John's AP2 is back with Audiophilleo at the moment, and he has the Empirical Audio Synchro Mesh in his possession as a Squeezebox-to-DAC reclocker. Perhaps this is the reason for selling off the other bits and pieces... the Synchro Mesh may be living up to expectations and turning the Squeezebox into a top-notch transport.

[kajak12]

Only circles never end.

I've had audio epiphanies like that, Lil Caesar. It takes a little while for perspective to return. Enjoy it while it lingers.

here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LuzArt]

LC, great you've now heard an AP2. I found it a total revelation when I first heard one, I'd love to know how the OffRamp can best it. I'm not saying it can't, it's just hard to fathom how it can. That said, taking the AP2 off the USB power delivers improvements too

b4sound - where did you get your attenuators? For a while I've been a big fan of the Goldenjacks RCA attenuators (-10db for 150mv-400mv on amp inputs) but I am interested to see what digital attenuation can offer. PM me if you could or if necessary.

Edited by LuzArt, 06 May 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[LuzArt]

pete- the syncro mesh is indeed another revelation for SPDIF only sources

Edited by LuzArt, 06 May 2012 - 12:10 AM.

[b4sound]

Was the AP2 unit powered by a battery PSU at B4's place? Just speculation but JD seems to have sold off his JKMk3 and A-GD DI recently may suggest his preference for the AP2 unit? Also spending $1.5k for a base model OffRamp5 is a bit much as well, but it may seem that this IS the best USB-SPDIF transport available atm.

No - my AP2 is stock (no mods) powered by the USB cable that came with it.

I was very tempted to buy the AP2 with battery pack - put it simply &--#62; I cannot live without the AP2 for 5 weeks waiting for an upgrade.
This space is now very busy as Pete mentioned above, the Synchro Mesh should be out soon and of course now a group buy for the OR5 (but this is really a very expensive device once you add all the options). After yesterday's AB, I am now totally convinced and totally agree with Bhobba and JD that a re-clocker is no longer a 'nice-to-have' device but a critical component in the chain for digital audio. In fact I wonder if a re-clocker plays a bigger part than a DAC...

When LC is ready to test the AP2 in his setup, hopefully I will have received JD's (or perhaps Pete's) Audio-gd DI and we can run them via ABC. This will be a much better test as TBH a futile exercise in my poorly set up study. The M51 is so resolving as said above, I think it effortless magnifies the differences of any device in the chain - of course the rest of the system must at least support this resolution. Let's be practical here - we all have a budget and if say the stock AP2 is 80% the OR5, then perhaps this makes much more sense for the majority of us here - but unless someone in Melb has an OR willing to do an AB, I may never find out.

LC, great you've now heard an AP2. I found it a total revelation when I first heard one, I'd love to know how the OffRamp can best it. I'm not saying it can't, it's just hard to fathom how it can. That said, taking the AP2 off the USB power delivers improvements too

b4sound - where did you get your attenuators? For a while I've been a big fan of the Goldenjacks RCA attenuators (-10db for 150mv-400mv on amp inputs) but I am interested to see what digital attenuation can offer. PM me if you could or if necessary.

Luz, my attenuators are from http://clarke.com.au/ per Jkenny recommendation using this spec:
http://www.minicircu...delPriceDisplay

The girls at Clarke were very helpful and friendly.
Yes - I think the syncro mesh will be on the cards no doubt when it is in production.

And what is this Tevion Battery mod in your signature? I have not paid much attention to DIY mods as its just not my game unless its super easy.

Edited by b4sound, 06 May 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[John H. Darko]

Only circles never end.

I've had audio epiphanies like that, Lil Caesar. It takes a little while for perspective to return. Enjoy it while it lingers.

Are you trolling?

[Tony M]

I guess I could do some homework and answer these questions for myself and I'll probably do that anyway when I get the time, but I'd really appreciate someone with a better understanding of these reclocking devices pointing me in the right direction re:

• is the digital output of the Sonos likely to benefit in the same way the usb output from a computer does, and
  
• which devices would be suitable

I'm very impressed with my new M51 and I can't ignore the possibility of taking it to the next level, bit I'd prefer to stay with the Sonos/NAS setup. Hope this makes sense. TIA .

Edit I should add the Sonos only has optical and coax digital outputs.

Edited by Tony M, 06 May 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[aechmea]

the syncro mesh is indeed another revelation for SPDIF only sources

Not mentioned on the web site so I don't think that they make it any more

[pete_mac]

Not mentioned on the web site so I don't think that they make it any more

It's the other way around... So new that it is not yet featured on the website

[kdoot]

I can think of two possible reasons why the AP or a similar SPDIF device might beat the async USB input on an M51.

1. It might do a better job of isolating the M51 from electrical noise coming from the computer
2. It might have a more stable clock which the M51 is forced to sync to than the one which the M51 uses for itself when running in async USB mode

A very similar thing happened with the Wyred4Sound DAC2 - it sounded just awful using its internal async USB but was dramatically improved with an AP2.

[SugarShark]

Can't say i'm surprised by this result. Plugging in an AP2 gives immediate and obvious improvement.

Once you get used to it using the other inputs on the m51 sounds pretty bad. I played a cd through a hdmi input the other day and it sounded awful.

I came to the same conclusion about AP2 re value. i dont think it's worth going beyond the base model, or it's getting close enough to make the OR5 a better buy. I'd considered the OR5, but didn't seem to really make sense having a reclocker that cost more than the dac. I'd love to hear the two in an A/B test though!

I really don't understand why these large manufacturers can't build an equivalent circuit to the AP/OR into the DAC?! I mean the R&D budget of NAD must be huge compared to empirical/audiophilleo.

Edited by SugarShark, 06 May 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[kdoot]

I came to the same conclusion about AP2 re value. i dont think it's worth going beyond the base model

With a DAC like the M51 that has digital volume control, I absolutely agree. With my Metrum, though, software-based digital volume control is a bit of a PITA and I'm contemplating an upgrade to the AP1 for its internal digital volume capability.

I really don't understand why these large manufacturers can't build an equivalent circuit to the AP/OR into the DAC?! I mean the R&D budget of NAD must be huge compared to empirical/audiophilleo.

Some of their engineers refuse to believe that such a circuit is necessary. (Plenty of similar opinions expressed around here too...)

Also, it's really hard to market such a thing in a way that stands out from the rest of the crowd. Everybody is making the same "jitter-immune" and "galvanically isolated" and "high stability clock" kinds of clams... they'd be adding a significant cost to their product to do it right, and probably would end up with a similar price hike to what we have today adding an AP2 on externally, and the market would just think they're more expensive than products that make the same claims on the spec sheets.

[GregWormald]

Since the AP is often bought direct from the manufacturer, putting the same thing in a DAC that has 3 or 4 layers of profit-takers up to the end user could easily result in a price increase 200% above the current retail. "In-betweeners" taking 70% at each step is not unheard of.

Greg

[SugarShark]

Since the AP is often bought direct from the manufacturer, putting the same thing in a DAC that has 3 or 4 layers of profit-takers up to the end user could easily result in a price increase 200% above the current retail. "In-betweeners" taking 70% at each step is not unheard of.
Greg

good point. but with the economies of scale that NAD would have, I would think their cost would be more like $100 rather than the $570 we pay for an AP2.

I just find it very odd. I mean surely their engineers could plug something like this in and hear the difference. Maybe we'll have to wait another few generations before we see this tech start to appear as a built in feature.

Also, it's really hard to market such a thing in a way that stands out from the rest of the crowd. Everybody is making the same "jitter-immune" and "galvanically isolated" and "high stability clock" kinds of clams... they'd be adding a significant cost to their product to do it right, and probably would end up with a similar price hike to what we have today adding an AP2 on externally, and the market would just think they're more expensive than products that make the same claims on the spec sheets.

Another excellent point.. according to the market dept there's no need for a dodgy garage product like that.. straight from nad's product page:

The incredible precision of the M51's processing engine gives music a vibrancy and transient accuracy that must be heard to be appreciated. The conversion process from PCM to PWM completely eliminates any jitter present on the incoming signal; again, offering state-of-the-art performance in this most important parameter.

"completely eliminates" .. awesome

[A J]

It's the other way around... So new that it is not yet featured on the website

Ssshh.. similar issues with this as with the NAD in terms of newness and availability. I think I was 5th in the queue, hoping to a white van in my driveway in the next 2 weeks !!

[b4sound]

Tony M
Was going to do a quote but it looks like not possible on tapatalk. Re your sonos, yes I understand. It really is the most user friendly and stable streamer I have used thus far. The only options if not mistaken are the audio-gd DI and the soon to be released synchro mesh (JD mentioned a Bravo or something above but apparently no longer in production). These are the only re-clockers that will accept coax.

[Tony M]

Thanks for the clear and succinct reply, b4sound. I'll look into both options.

Edited by Tony M, 06 May 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Arg]

Are you trolling?

No, johnnydarko, and sorry if you thought I was.

My advice was sincere. I really have had the same sort of audio experience. It's great. It's also great to just wallow in it for a while, knowing that the intensity will fade soon enough. Sort of like great sex.

cheers

[Vitruvian]

No, johnnydarko, and sorry if you thought I was.

My advice was sincere. I really have had the same sort of audio experience. It's great. It's also great to just wallow in it for a while, knowing that the intensity will fade soon enough. Sort of like great sex.

cheers

I have found that with ongoing cultivation epiphanies deepen and open into a new room of possibilities. Evolution leading inexcerably to revolution.

I sincerely recommend looking into Tantra.

[rantan]

I must have arrived in my parallel universe.

The original one was a forum which discussed all manner of things audio.

This one is replete with inexorable epiphanies and revolutions.................all that audio discussion was just s-h-i-t by comparison

[Lil Caesar]

Now be nice rantan. I could have perhaps described my experience as a gestalt moment. No doubt that would have met with your approval

[Vitruvian]

I must have arrived in my parallel universe.

The original one was a forum which discussed all manner of things audio.

This one is replete with inexorable epiphanies and revolutions.................all that audio discussion was just s-h-i-t by comparison

Is it really that great a stretch to apply lessons learned from cultivating one sense into the process of cultivating another sense?

Audio does not exist in a vacuum (pun intended). Just ask the people with tube, vintage or finely engineered audio gear if the visual aesthetic is an aspect of their enjoyment of their music listening process.

FWIW, in my parallel universe I am listening to audio in the multi Salma Hayek lingerie room. I am far too busy to spend any time looking at forums, audio or otherwise....

Edited by Vitruvian, 06 May 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[kajak12]

No, johnnydarko, and sorry if you thought I was.

My advice was sincere. I really have had the same sort of audio experience. It's great. It's also great to just wallow in it for a while, knowing that the intensity will fade soon enough. Sort of like great sex.

cheers

With any luck you might fade away so people can enjoy their hobby more without being told its just a imagination.

[proftournesol]

With any luck you might fade away so people can enjoy their hobby more without being told its just a imagination.

Mario, impolite comments like that earn you an infraction. Arg, perhaps you should ponder why people respond to your provocative posts (a small number of your total posts) the way that they do? I must say that it's frustrating as a mod to read provocative posts and then have posters incensed at provocative replies!

[alistairm]

Good stuff LC. Nothing like hearing something yourself to make an assessment. Look forward to following your off ramp journey! Have to agree with Mario - it never ends and it's always nice to turn a corner and see something new and wonderful laid out in front of you to explore.

Al

[LuzArt]

Luz, my attenuators are from http://clarke.com.au/ per Jkenny recommendation using this spec:
http://www.minicircu...delPriceDisplay

The girls at Clarke were very helpful and friendly.
Yes - I think the syncro mesh will be on the cards no doubt when it is in production.

And what is this Tevion Battery mod in your signature? I have not paid much attention to DIY mods as its just not my game unless its super easy.

Thanks, but the JKeny recommendation link shows an almost endless list of items, can you offer me a model name or designation?

The Tevion battery was a $30 on sale lithium battery at Aldi of all places. Nada mentioned it here. Works a treat.

[pchan]

It's the other way around... So new that it is not yet featured on the website

I wonder if JD would give us some more info on the syncromesh: the changing landscape of turbocharged S/pdif devices. Can hardly keep up, LC I thing you should wait for more detailed info on this device before you make a plundge on the AP2! Only my 2 cents worth!

[GraemeB]

Hope to have my custom USB y-connector cable by week's end. Aldi-sourced Tevion Li-Po battery is charged and ready to plug into Audiophilleo2 and M51.

Will report my highly labile emotional and subjective/non-DBT listening experience! ;0D

BTW Aldi Bundaberg had PLENTY of the batteries in stock when I was in there last Monday. Probably a bit of a drive for most of you... :0)

PS: typed in Tapatalk, hence inabilility to use 'real' emoticons

Edited by GraemeB, 06 May 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[b4sound]

Thanks, but the JKeny recommendation link shows an almost endless list of items, can you offer me a model name or designation?

The Tevion battery was a $30 on sale lithium battery at Aldi of all places. Nada mentioned it here. Works a treat.

Sorry - The URL changes by itself (just happened again before). Try this:
http://minicircuits....arch_type=model

Thanks for the link (I did notice it but did not pay attention). Will read later.

[rantan]

Is it really that great a stretch to apply lessons learned from cultivating one sense into the process of cultivating another sense?

Audio does not exist in a vacuum (pun intended). Just ask the people with tube, vintage or finely engineered audio gear if the visual aesthetic is an aspect of their enjoyment of their music listening process.

FWIW, in my parallel universe I am listening to audio in the multi Salma Hayek lingerie room. I am far too busy to spend any time looking at forums, audio or otherwise....

Actually, upon reflection it is probably not a stretch at all and I love the analogy of the Salma Hayek Lingerie Room. I think that I may be a victim of some other posts made by a person/s whose name I will not mention,which made me somewhat lesser at peace with the world than is my custom

I intended no malice at all and I am sorry for the sarcasm

[rantan]

Now be nice rantan. I could have perhaps described my experience as a gestalt moment. No doubt that would have met with your approval

Indeed it would and I am sorry for any confusion as my remarks were actually ill directed, but not at your good self. I have aplogised separately in another post to a good person member who may have rightly felt that my remarks were somewhat acerbic when they were actually intended as humour.

[Vitruvian]

Actually, upon reflection it is probably not a stretch at all and I love the analogy of the Salma Hayek Lingerie Room. I think that I may be a victim of some other posts made by a person/s whose name I will not mention,which made me somewhat lesser at peace with the world than is my custom

I intended no malice at all and I am sorry for the sarcasm

All good in the 'hood! It's is all in good fun, and a little back-and-fourth is good for the soul.

[John H. Darko]

I wonder if JD would give us some more info on the syncromesh: the changing landscape of turbocharged S/pdif devices. Can hardly keep up, LC I thing you should wait for more detailed info on this device before you make a plundge on the AP2! Only my 2 cents worth!

Finalising my review of the SM in the next few days. Hang tough.

[LuzArt]

Sorry - The URL changes by itself (just happened again before). Try this:
http://minicircuits....arch_type=model

Thanks for the link (I did notice it but did not pay attention). Will read later.

Thanks b4sound, much appreciated. I take it you just ordered both with Clarke? Would actually be interesting to try -6db against -10db, as I've wondered what -6db would be like when I've used the -10db goldenjacks. I find with no GJ's, along with a clumpiness there are slightly more broad mids, perhaps a bit less attenuation would do a little filling out that I sometimes wonder about when using -10db...

[twwen2]

I almost ordered with MiniCircuits before noticing the shipping charges. $100 minimum, no thanks! Is there anywhere else to source the attenuators?

Edit: I just got a quote through Clarke for $15 per attenuator. They offer free shipping into store - whatever that means. However, there's a $50 minimum order, so it might be worth a few people ordering together. I only want the 6db and 10db versions, so I'd need another 1-2 pieces on the order to make it worthwhile.

Edited by twwen2, 07 May 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[jaspert]

hi Twwen2,

i'm in Vic and i can share the order for 6 db and 10dB with you.

jasper

[lebowski]

You may be able to run more than -16 as I have good signal lock with -21 Attenuators into both Lavry DA10 and
Audio GD DAC19